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Windows Longhorn Alpha Build 4074 +/- Out Today

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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,587
10,225
126
Originally posted by: Chaotic42
Originally posted by: spyordie007
well my post was slightly sarcastic, in honesty it'll run on a P4 1.6 w/ 512MB of RAM. It'll just run slowly... :roll:

-Erik

What new functionality would call for such an increase in minimum specs? I mean, outside of looking different, what does WindowsXP do with all of that power that Win2K couldn't do?

Are you familiar with the order-of-magnitude increase in terms of system "power" needed to run Mozilla, vs. the original Netscape 4.x codebase? That's a similar measure to how much more power you will need to run the basic OS in Longhorn, largely, possibly, because MS has decided to "innovate", and essentially copy Mozilla's architecture. The "behind the window" code for the UI in Longhorn, is all scripted components. Mozilla has XUL (XML UI Language, I believe it is), and Longhorn has something similar (forget what it is called). Because the UI is fully-scripted, instead of running in compilied native code, it will be significantly slower, and take more memory.

I'm sure that the fact that the code is compilied with full-bore debugging enabled doesn't help the speed factor either.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Sunner
That's good for you. Personally, I use 3-4 different OSes on a daily basis. I'm an OS geek though.
Playing with new stuff is fun, even new Windows versions :)

I try to stick with things I can legally get for free. Might bring up a Solaris machine soon. ;)

The benefit of MSDN subscriptions, not free as in Beer, but at least someone's buying me this expensive beer, unlike the Belgian stuff :)
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,587
10,225
126
As far as OS porting and 64-bit-ness goes, there exists a 64-bit version of Windows 2000 for the Compaq Alpha. So the codebase had to have been largely 64-bit clean already, even before AMD64 entered the commercial landscape. MS has also had 64-bit Itanium versions running for quite some time as well. I personally think that the "delays" surrounding WinXP for AMD64, are more political and monetary than technical. AMD64 is a heck of a lot more similar in arch. to existing x86, than Alpha and Itanium are.

After all, it's still a WinTel world, and AMD's best bet at taking a big bite out of Intel's marketshare is their AMD64 arch, but it requires a mainstream OS to gain widespread market-acceptance. If Intel pressures MS to "delay" the AMD64-compatible version of XP long enough for them to catch up their technology to the current state of AMD in the market, then they gain big-time, and I'm sure MS gets something out of it too.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
As far as OS porting and 64-bit-ness goes, there exists a 64-bit version of Windows 2000 for the Compaq Alpha.


Sortoff. Alpha was indeed a 64bit cpu, but the version of WinNT that ran on it was still just plain old 32bit. Plus the Alpha port of Win2000 never made it to market, it died in beta stage. (there are copies of W2k release canadate 1 that can run on Alpha machines floating around.)

Plus dont' forget that that stuff was over 5 years ago... lots of changes have happened since then, and Windows very tightly integrated. Small changes in one part of the OS can break things in completely different parts of the OS.

Plus they are trying to retain 32bit compatability thru WOW for applications going as far back as the Win9x days.

Now that can't be easy.


The Alpha NT site
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: Sunner
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Sunner
That's good for you. Personally, I use 3-4 different OSes on a daily basis. I'm an OS geek though.
Playing with new stuff is fun, even new Windows versions :)

I try to stick with things I can legally get for free. Might bring up a Solaris machine soon. ;)

The benefit of MSDN subscriptions, not free as in Beer, but at least someone's buying me this expensive beer, unlike the Belgian stuff :)

I've got a legit copy of 2k3 server (180 day trial, which is probably longer than I'd be able to keep the install alive anyways, I have the death touch with Windows), but I don't have a spare machine to play with it. :p
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Sunner
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Sunner
That's good for you. Personally, I use 3-4 different OSes on a daily basis. I'm an OS geek though.
Playing with new stuff is fun, even new Windows versions :)

I try to stick with things I can legally get for free. Might bring up a Solaris machine soon. ;)

The benefit of MSDN subscriptions, not free as in Beer, but at least someone's buying me this expensive beer, unlike the Belgian stuff :)

I've got a legit copy of 2k3 server (180 day trial, which is probably longer than I'd be able to keep the install alive anyways, I have the death touch with Windows), but I don't have a spare machine to play with it. :p


What? Trolling ebay for a 20gig harddrive is to much trouble for you to install the latest and greatest offerings from Microsoft? Outragious.
 

dawks

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,071
2
81
Originally posted by: drag
Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
As far as OS porting and 64-bit-ness goes, there exists a 64-bit version of Windows 2000 for the Compaq Alpha.


Sortoff. Alpha was indeed a 64bit cpu, but the version of WinNT that ran on it was still just plain old 32bit. Plus the Alpha port of Win2000 never made it to market, it died in beta stage. (there are copies of W2k release canadate 1 that can run on Alpha machines floating around.)

Plus dont' forget that that stuff was over 5 years ago... lots of changes have happened since then, and Windows very tightly integrated. Small changes in one part of the OS can break things in completely different parts of the OS.

Plus they are trying to retain 32bit compatability thru WOW for applications going as far back as the Win9x days.

Now that can't be easy.
The Alpha NT site

They also need to ensure their applications (windows media encoder, windows media player, directx9) work properly in 64bit. Imagine the flames that would fly if they wernt compatible with 64bit. "omfg windows media encoder is running in 32bit on WinXP64 wowowow MSFT SUCKS ASS"

I'd think alot of it also has to do with driver support. They have to get SOOO many drivers up-to-date. I wonder if they are trying to make all the drivers that ship with XP 64bit compatible. Remeber, XP supports thousands, if not 10's of thousands of hardware devices out of the box.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: drag
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Sunner
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Sunner
That's good for you. Personally, I use 3-4 different OSes on a daily basis. I'm an OS geek though.
Playing with new stuff is fun, even new Windows versions :)

I try to stick with things I can legally get for free. Might bring up a Solaris machine soon. ;)

The benefit of MSDN subscriptions, not free as in Beer, but at least someone's buying me this expensive beer, unlike the Belgian stuff :)

I've got a legit copy of 2k3 server (180 day trial, which is probably longer than I'd be able to keep the install alive anyways, I have the death touch with Windows), but I don't have a spare machine to play with it. :p


What? Trolling ebay for a 20gig harddrive is to much trouble for you to install the latest and greatest offerings from Microsoft? Outragious.

I'm planning on dualbooting for the first time since about 1999 today. I don't see the point in dualbooting a server OS and something else. ;)
 

spyordie007

Diamond Member
May 28, 2001
6,229
0
0
damn this thread took off out of control, the misinformation is aweful :roll:

I'll try and grab a few free min. later this morning to answer some of this stuff with factual information rather than speculation.

-Erik
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: spyordie007
damn this thread took off out of control, the misinformation is aweful :roll:

I'll try and grab a few free min. later this morning to answer some of this stuff with factual information rather than speculation.

-Erik


What information about longhorn is accurate?
 

spyordie007

Diamond Member
May 28, 2001
6,229
0
0
Ok I'll try and answer some of the questions about longhorn for you guys, as drag just suggested there is not a lot of very accurate information in the public realm yet so it's kind of hard to not speculate. On the other hand Microsoft is being very open about some of the new technologies (like WinFS) so that developers can begin preparing to make use of them in their ?new? applications (if they want to).

I'm going to try to respond to this stuff using only public information and whenever possible I'll provide links.

Longhorn is architecturally far different from older versions of Windows. The changes/new technologies revolve mostly around 3 key areas, Presentation (Avalon), Data (WinFS), and Communication (Indigo). I?ll touch really briefly on these areas before continuing.

Avalon:
Modernizes the imaging (screen) and printing platform. Avalon is a new rendering and composition ?technology.? I?m not going to go into too much detail but Microsoft is basically changing the way Windows presents the interface, if you want more information visit:
Avalon information on MSDN

WinFS:
WinFS is a new beast altogether, what Microsoft is doing with WinFS is essentially taking a version of their new SQL engine and putting it on top of NTFS. The idea being that there is data that is best stored as a file stream (such as a movie file) and there is information that is best stored as records in a database (such as a contact or a link). The concept of ?files? will change somewhat in the Longhorn realm as a ?file? can either be a database record or a database record and a corresponding NTFS file stream.
Since the ?files? will all be referenced in the WinFS database it makes it very easy to find files on your hard drive using explorer. With WinFS rather than knowing the path to a file you will only need to know an attribute of it and explorer will generate SQL queries that will find the ?files? for you based on the attribute(s) you specify (i.e. author, type, name, etc.).
Another big advantage to WinFS is that the database is extensible, so if a developer wants to add a new ?field? to the database to track a new piece of information about ?files? that their application will use they can.
WinFS is also a big part of the reason that current builds of Longhorn are so slow and resource intensive. I don?t know about the latest build but in past builds the WinFS engine could easily eat up more than 100MB of RAM.
For more information visit:
WinFS on MSDN

Indigo:
Indigo provides a framework for web services so that applications no longer need to have web connectivity built-in. I?m just going to leave Indigo at that because this post is already getting very long and I don?t feel like spending my whole morning writing so if you want more information visit:
Indigo on MSDN

There is a ton more information (mostly geared for developers) on the MSDN Site
Um... Microsoft *does* have a huge team working on this. It takes this long to get a product out the door because it's a damned huge, damned complex product.

And it'll be 64-bit ready the day it ships, I'm sure.
Microsoft has an enormous team working on this and yes it?s a massive undertaking. Microsoft has massive organization-wide support for Longhorn because they realize that for them to continue to be the market leader they *must* deliver well on this product.

It will also be ready (and primarily geared) for the 64-bit architecture, current builds are mostly only 32 bit because not many developers have 64bit test beds yet. Also consider that the majority of the differences between the 32bit and 64bit versions are in the compiler?
What new functionality would call for such an increase in minimum specs? I mean, outside of looking different, what does WindowsXP do with all of that power that Win2K couldn't do?
As I stated before Longhorn is going to be quite a bit different than Windows XP. Windows XP was *mostly* just an update for Windows 2K (some new features, updated look, etc.). Windows Longhorn will be a serious change.

Keep in mind Moore?s law as well, by the time Longhorn is released the specs that were listed wont seem that absurd. Microsoft is going to try and make sure Longhorn runs on *old* hardware (the stuff we?re all running today) but it wont run as good and wont be able to take advantage of some of the features (i.e. Avalon?s DX9 driven interface).
Everything you do is tied directly to the OS. Like Explorer being PART of the OS instead of being just the browser, well so it would be the same for the music player, Office productivity tools (think of the actual "applications" being scripts/XUML/whatever that run 90% of the code from libraries already built in and loaded into memory to run the rest of the OS, of course your going to be charged seperately for Office liscences), video games, and anything else that MS can think of.

90% of the code for any application your going to be using is already loaded into RAM before you even start using the application. So then any third party apps not able to share code with with Window's system libraries are going to run like dog crap compared to "native" apps.

At least I think that's the direction that they are heading.

Why else would you want all that bloat running by default unless your going to use it? MS ain't that stupid.

They want tight integration. The actual C code that the programs use for performance is going to be hidden under layers and layers of API's or whatever and your going to need to use a highlevel sudo-scripting language to link them all together to build applications.

I could be wrong though, of course.
To some extent I?m sure that?s true. I?m not a developer so I cant be certain but many of the new platform changes will enable vendors to program applications that are simply running a Windows *function*. Of course only time will tell for sure :D
The OS is going to be designed to run on hardware thats mainstream at its release.
Yes absolutely. Keep in mind that something like 94% of Microsoft?s Windows client sales are through OEMs for new computers so that is going to be their primary target market. As I said before they will want it to run on older hardware, it just wont run as well?
As far as bigger things comming with longhorn, WinFS, a database based file system, looks very promising. I heard an MSFT developer saying something like an address book will no longer be accessable by only certain programs, it will be very easy to access it from any program (provided you have access rights - security). And the new fully hardware accelerated GUI will allow for MUCH more complex and dynamic UI's then we can currently get, aside from coding a proprietary 3D engine for a specific app.
Yup, that?s about right. Since things like contacts will be stored within WinFS (and not some application specific datafile like PST, OSD, etc.) it will be easy to enable any application access to the information.

I?m sure I didn?t hit everything and I?ve got to run (supposed to be at a meeting in 1 min.) post questions if you have them and I?ll try and answer what I can.

As always this information is provided ?as is?; considering the timeframe before Longhorn?s release it is also subject to change. I?m sure some of you have comments about what I?ve said so please ask about (or poke at) all you please. I?ll try and visit this thread again later today so I can respond.

-Erik

EDIT: Fixed Links
 

ValuedCustomer

Senior member
May 5, 2004
759
0
0
And I haven't seen *anything* innovative yet, with regards to longhorn. With such a huge jump in minimum specs, I'd expect to see something innovative.
Unless it's somethng along the lines of a Transporter (ala Star Trek), I be sticking wit me 2k, thank you. :p
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
I haven't been keeping up with the news on Longhorn lately, but didn't they pretty much yank out the original WinFS? Or at least water it down quite a bit?
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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0
WinFS is still suppose to be there, but they have supposed to of decided to drop the networking portion of it.

Oh, and the version of Office that is going to be released close to Longhorn. is going to have the requirement to run WinFS dropped, for backward compatability, I think.



Ok, now I have played around with AS/400 stuff a very little bit and that's OS has a database driven file system.

That is, each and every file is a database. (And all the files are instantly crossreferenced/have relationships will all the other files in the system by the OS, which seems realy realy weird.)

Now is WinFS like that, were it's a purely database driven file system or is it a database that runs on top of a NTFS-like file system and keeps track of all the metadata for the OS to use in a seperate database(s)?
 

spyordie007

Diamond Member
May 28, 2001
6,229
0
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WinFS is still there and isnt going anywhere.
Now is WinFS like that, were it's a purely database driven file system or is it a database that runs on top of a NTFS-like file system and keeps track of all the metadata for the OS to use in a seperate database(s)?
It is not only a database (SQL based) but also a traditional file-system (NTFS). It uses both because they realized that there is some information best stored in databases and other information best stored in file streams.

So to answer your question it's really both. In some cases where pure-databasing doesnt work best (i.e. you store a movie file on your HD) it is a file stored in a traditional NTFS stream with a database running on top that keeps track of the file metadata. In other cases where information is best stored in a database (i.e. contacts) it is mostly database driven. It's an effort to achieve "the best of both worlds"

Microsoft is far from deciding what the final release is going to be like, it is afterall still a pre-alpha we're working with. They also have a lot of other important and visible projects that they've needed to focus a lot of development into (i.e. XPSP2).

-Erik
 

ValuedCustomer

Senior member
May 5, 2004
759
0
0
Not all will see Longhorn in 3D

By Ina Fried
CNET News.com
May 6, 2004, 2:12 PM PT

SEATTLE--The next version of Windows will sport some fancy, three-dimensional graphics, but for those with an older video card, Longhorn will look a lot like Windows 2000.
That's because with Longhorn, Microsoft plans to offer three different graphical interfaces, each requiring a different level of graphics card.

"This is the first time we've had a tiered user experience based on the hardware you are running," lead product manager Greg Sullivan said during an interview at the Windows Hardware Engineering Conference (WinHEC) here.

The top-of-the-line interface, code-named "Aero Glass," will have transparency and other advanced three-dimensional shading features but will demand a high-end video card with at least 64MB of video memory. The midlevel "Aero" interface will offer most of the improved graphics abilities and will require just 32MB of video memory.

Both Aero and Aero Glass will also require DirectX 9.0 support, AGP 4X for external graphics cards and a Longhorn graphics driver.

For those systems that lack such a powerful graphics card, Microsoft will offer a "classic" interface, designed to replicate Windows 2000, the mainstay of today's corporate desktops.

Although Microsoft detailed the graphics requirements for Longhorn, it did not, as it had originally planned, give public guidance on what types of hardware will be either required or recommended to run Longhorn.

Instead, Sullivan said, the company is talking privately with computer makers and other hardware companies, as it tries to finalize its plans for the OS. The arrival of Longhorn has also been pushed back until mid-2006, making the need for such requirements less urgent.

Sullivan did say that "the overwhelming majority" of systems being made when Longhorn ships will be capable of running the operating system. The OS will also run on relatively new machines made before Longhorn arrives. "The expectation is that if you have a relatively new PC, you should be able to take advantage of the OS," Sullivan said.

The graphics requirements are not merely for show, Sullivan said.

"When you have a terabyte of local storage, potentially, a rich way to relate and gain (access) to the data becomes very important," Sullivan said. "We're not doing 3D in the (Windows) shell because it is cool--but it is cool."

Independent technology analyst Peter Glaskowsky said the hardware requirements appear not to be overly stringent and that the OS should run on most modern machines. "Certainly, by the time it comes out, I think almost anything being manufactured will make the grade," he said.


LINK
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81
Originally posted by: drag
I mean they are obviously having a huge difficulty porting WinXP to AMD64, so they didn't make it as 64bit clean as they thought they did.
Oh? The only issue I've heard of is the lack of drivers.

After all how long has AMD64 been around for? They are close to a year behind getting Windows XP-64 out of the door, probably chasing little bugs all over the place. Aren't they?
See above. AMD64 hardware has been out for about a year*, but the specs and an emulator were available for a while before that.

*by "out", I mean, "available to the public". The public usually only sees second or third revision hardware. It seems like it would have been in AMD's interest to give large OEMs early samples.
 

spyordie007

Diamond Member
May 28, 2001
6,229
0
0
There have been a lot of 64bit comments so I figured I would speak to that one.

There are currently 3 versions of the 4074 LH build available. One for 32bit, one for Intel 64bit (Itanium) and a 3rd for AMD 64bit (Athlon64/Opteron).

-Erik