Windows 98, Old Hardware, New Internets :)

[Arkaign]

Hey guys, just an anecdotal/fwiw post here.

I run a little PC shop, and from *time to time*, we get someone with reeeeeallly old stuff who want unrealistic things out of it. A guy just brought this in :

Pentium 200MMX
32MB EDO 60NS Memory
i430HX Chipset Mobo
2.1GB Samsung IDE Drive
16X CD-Rom Drive
33.6 USR Modem
Creative SB16
Win98SE

He'd just bought broadband, and he didn't have an ethernet port. So I told him that while technically possible, it wouldn't be a very enjoyable or effective experience. He insisted, so I put a PCI ethernet card in for him, reloaded his trashed 98 install, doubled his memory to the maximum 64MB (gave him that for free, hehe I was shocked I still had any 72-pin around), and lo and behold, teh internets work. Well .. sort of ..

Default IE is *VERY* old, msn.com causes it to crash, and yahoo.com says basically 'you need to upgrade, dude'. Install Firefox, and while it properly displays pages, it takes EONS to do so. Downloaded IE6 SP1, and it's at least usable, perhaps if only for webmail and news sites.

Haven't messed with Opera for awhile, would that make a decent choice for him? This guy is about as computer illiterate as humanly possible.

It seems that teh internets have become too much for the trusty Pentium MMX & Win98 Or maybe most of us are spoiled by our multi-ghz systems with gigs and gigs of ram and drive space

 

[Shawn]

A 200MHz system shouldn't have much problem viewing the internet, minus videos and such. Not sure why it's running so slowly. I wouldn't use FF though.

One of my projects was getting XP to work on an old Panasonic Toughbook P2 266MHz laptop. I upgraded the ram to 160MB and added a PCMCIA wireless card. After disabling every non-essential service it was actually very usable! In fact, my mom used it for a year for her online classes at Phoenix until my dad bought her a new one. She even watched MSN videos on it, which worked but it had to drop a lot of frames to keep up with the audio. It only had a 2gb hard drive though so after installing XP, IE7, Office 97, WMP10, and Acrobat Reader it was pretty much full.

 

[Arkaign]

Yeah, maybe I exaggerated just a little. It works decently with IE6 SP1, maybe 4-5 seconds from double-click to complete home page view. Of course internet streaming video is a no-no, youtube.com works but is choppy.

I think a lot of the issue is that content has changed a LOT over the past few years, as everyone seems to throw tons of rich-media content all over the place, especially in advertising Places like AT forums are relatively clean, but a lot of places have ads all over the place.

He's already picked the system up, and is pleased, but I wonder if I should tell him about Opera, or another lite browser. Anything come to mind? Or is IE the way to go for 98+old box?

 

[thegorx]

It's running slow because the hard drive and hard drive controller is slow.

 

[spherrod]

Opera may help - can run very nicely on slower machines

 

[Linflas]

We had a lab using Windows 98 boxes for the 2005-2006 school year. There are still a few of them scattered around in classrooms but they are not allowed to be connected to the network.

 

[xSauronx]

ive run into a couple of customers that had windows 98 machines they wanted to use with our service. no complaints, no problems....there have only been 4 or 5 but they all ran smoothly.

the slowest pc ive come across was a celeron 1.13ghz with 128mb running windows XP.

just the wait time to open the network connections was hellish

the biggest shock ive gotten may be the mint condition windows 95 disc i saw the other day

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: thegorx
It's running slow because the hard drive and hard drive controller is slow.

Well, yes .. but also no I mean, back in the late 90s into 2000, 2001 .. Win98SE, and ME were sort of standard, and using Netscape 4 or IE4/IE5 was pretty fast with web pages at the time.

In today's internet, the average content of a web page is much more complex and content-rich, requiring newer browsers, and much more activex, java, php, etc, etc. This brings the older systems to a crawl, which is a big difference compared to running the identical OS and Hardware 8 years ago.

Thanks Spherrod, I'll burn a copy of opera for him and tell him to give it a spin. I'll also poke him with a stick, and tell him to buy one of my refurb compaq p4 2.4s for $109.

 

[DC Hertz]

Hello Arkaign.

Hopefully, my thoughts, experience, and recollection will help you to some degree.

When I was using Windows 98 (From Spring of 1999 to Summer of 2006) I used the latest versions of Opera dating from version 8.5 to 9.1 with no problems whatsoever.

I could watch you tube videos (With a Cable Connection not Dial Up). I would suggest you use Apple?s Quicktime for everything over Windows Media Player.

If you must use Firefox, version 1.0 and under, works best for slower computers. But, you would still be better off with Opera and IE (Version 6) over Firefox 2.0 seeing they are more up to date than Firefox 1.0 I can vouch Firefox was dead slow on a 400 MHz CPU, so I can only imagine what will happen on a 200 Mhz.

Firefox has become more resource hungry as the versions increased which is not the case with Opera. If you can use a lot of RAM (Maximize it?s capacity) it will make a world of a difference.

Windows 2000 only needs 133 MHz, & 64 MB of RAM Minimum to function (Although I?ve read it can run on 32 MB of RAM. I would speculate speed will be like a snail) properly. In addition to, having a much better memory management over Windows 98. So, if you can upgrade, by all means do so.

There are forums (MSFN.org) that offer an active Windows 95/98 boards. I?m not sure if they are using old PC?s but they have mod Windows 98 considerably to adapt to modern day technology.

If the owner is using a Laptop, options will be less than a desktop due to being very limited to upgrade.

You might also want to checkout www.oldversion.com and www.oldapps.com to save space and maintain speeds.

I wish you good luck on your project.

 

[cparker]

Here's what you can do. Go to the Opera site and pick up Opera 6.06. Use that for your browser. It will work find with most things, such as google stuff and gmail and many if not most sites. Just won't get the eye candy stuff and you definitely don't want to have flash plug ins. Next, be sure to get rid of anything not absolutely necessary. I'd get rid of any adobe acrobat reader and replace it with foxit pdf reader (free). Adobe reader will take up resources and slow down the machine. Don't load quicktime, realplayer, or anything not absolutely essential. (I'm repeating myself, but that's very important). So with Opera and with, say, an older MS Office (2000 or earlier) the 200 mhz machine should almost be flying. It will work very well with ethernet or wireless. Of course you want to keep the OS updated, so use windizupdate. I would not use any antivirus, shouldn't be necessary if Opera is used. But you could dowload Adawarese from Lavasoft to keep "pests" under control. Just in case, make an "image" back up of your HD when it's in a nice, lean and mean, pristine state, so you can reload the image should things ever get bad. And do defragment it often. Also, to use windizupdate I keep firefox on the pc. I keep firefox 1.5X and it works fine with the update. Firefox can also be used in case a site doesn't work well or look right with Opera, but it's slower, so most of the time I'd use Opera. I've done all of this to a laptop (P1 166mhz, w98SE) after dismissing the laptop as being less than useless because it became so slow. After trimming things down, the laptop is fast and useful. Was surprised, pleasantly so.

 

[thegorx]

That system is meant to use windows 95, not 98 that system is slow the hardware is slow.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: thegorx
That system is meant to use windows 95, not 98 that system is slow the hardware is slow.

Dude, Windows 95 came out when most people had 486s, and Pentium 60 and 66Mhz were SUPER high end. By the time 98se rolled around, people were running stuff just like this guy's system, 166-233Mhz MMX processors, 32MB-64MB Ram, etc.

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/win98.asp

"For users of Windows 95 and Windows 3.1, Windows 98 is an obvious upgrade, as long as your system is at least a Pentium 100 with 16 MB of RAM. I suggest at least a Pentium 133 with 32 MB of RAM, however, and newer computers will be able to take advantage of Windows 98's coolest features more readily."

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: cparker
Here's what you can do. Go to the Opera site and pick up Opera 6.06. Use that for your browser. It will work find with most things, such as google stuff and gmail and many if not most sites. Just won't get the eye candy stuff and you definitely don't want to have flash plug ins. Next, be sure to get rid of anything not absolutely necessary. I'd get rid of any adobe acrobat reader and replace it with foxit pdf reader (free). Adobe reader will take up resources and slow down the machine. Don't load quicktime, realplayer, or anything not absolutely essential. (I'm repeating myself, but that's very important). So with Opera and with, say, an older MS Office (2000 or earlier) the 200 mhz machine should almost be flying. It will work very well with ethernet or wireless. Of course you want to keep the OS updated, so use windizupdate. I would not use any antivirus, shouldn't be necessary if Opera is used. But you could dowload Adawarese from Lavasoft to keep "pests" under control. Just in case, make an "image" back up of your HD when it's in a nice, lean and mean, pristine state, so you can reload the image should things ever get bad. And do defragment it often. Also, to use windizupdate I keep firefox on the pc. I keep firefox 1.5X and it works fine with the update. Firefox can also be used in case a site doesn't work well or look right with Opera, but it's slower, so most of the time I'd use Opera. I've done all of this to a laptop (P1 166mhz, w98SE) after dismissing the laptop as being less than useless because it became so slow. After trimming things down, the laptop is fast and useful. Was surprised, pleasantly so.

Testing Opera 6.06 right now on a P2-233 Notebook, thanks This could help me refurb old PCs to give away to people who can't afford anything more recent.

 

[thegorx]

Dude, I personally don't need a website to know when windows 95 A, B, C, Windows 98, 98SE came out. that system came with windows 95
I can guarantee it, in fact I bet it didn't have even windows 95 version C on it.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: thegorx
Dude, I personally don't need a website to know when windows 95 A, B, C, Windows 98, 98SE came out. that system came with windows 95
I can guarantee it, in fact I bet it didn't have even windows 95 version C on it.

Lol, I guess that explains the 98 COA on the back of the unit

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: thegorx
Dude, I personally don't need a website to know when windows 95 A, B, C, Windows 98, 98SE came out. that system came with windows 95
I can guarantee it, in fact I bet it didn't have even windows 95 version C on it.

Ah, and here you go, a PC that debuted in March '98 (two months before the rollout of Win98)

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-209379.html?legacy=cnet

With :

A Pentium 200MMX
32MB of Ram
and a 2GB Hard Drive

What makes you think that noone ever sold a PC with 98 and these specs? Old timers like me remember these things when they were new. Hell, I remember the TRS-80

 

[mancunian]

Originally posted by: thegorx
Dude, I personally don't need a website to know when windows 95 A, B, C, Windows 98, 98SE came out. that system came with windows 95
I can guarantee it, in fact I bet it didn't have even windows 95 version C on it.

You can guarantee it?

Fill your boots, we're all waiting.

As previously pointed out, W95 was 486-Pentium 60 era.

So until your guarantee is forthcoming, we'll just assume you are talking out of your a$$.

 

[thegorx]

Pentiums with MMX Technology were released in January 1997
Windows 95 OEM Service Release 2.5 - 1997

So I was wrong it's a slow system now and even then, windows 98 first edition wasn't much better than windows 95 any who.

 

[Shawn]

Just because Windows 98 wasn't out yet when the processor came out doesn't mean that it won't run smoothly. My P4 3.06GHz processor ran Vista fine and I bought it in 2005.

Also, while Windows 95 would be faster there hasn't been support for it for a long time. The last version of IE to come out on 95 was IE5.5. I don't even know if opera would run in Win95.

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: thegorx
Dude, I personally don't need a website to know when windows 95 A, B, C, Windows 98, 98SE came out.

Windows 95 Gold was released August 1995 (.950)

Windows 95 OSR1 (a.k.a. SP1) was released December 1995 (.950a)

Windows 95 OSR2 was released August 1996 (.950b)

Windows 95 OSR2.1 was released August 1997 (.950b no letter change)

Windows 95 OSR2.5 was released November 1997 (.950c)

Windows 98 Gold (First Edition) was released June 1998

Windows 98 Second Edition was released May 1999

 

[thegorx]

Originally posted by: Shawn
Just because Windows 98 wasn't out yet when the processor came out doesn't mean that it won't run smoothly. My P4 3.06GHz processor ran Vista fine and I bought it in 2005.

Also, while Windows 95 would be faster there hasn't been support for it for a long time. The last version of IE to come out on 95 was IE5.5. I don't even know if opera would run in Win95.

Well, create a Virtual Machine and waste some time and find out, what are they paying you for anyway ?

 

[IdaGno]

My P166/MMX, same chipset, 64 megs RAM running IE 6 and W's 98se, still occasionally hits the net via a broadband connection. It's noticeably slower to display (Voodoo 3 2000 pci 16meg), but I've always considered that to be down to the mere 2gig HD. Wonder what speed those things ran/run at and how large the HD cache. Anyway, lacking any hard numbers proof, those ancient HD's are surely a significant bottleneck. Doable and infinitely better than mere dial-up via modem, but still noticeably less responsive.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: IdaGno
My P166/MMX, same chipset, 64 megs RAM running IE 6 and W's 98se, still occasionally hits the net via a broadband connection. It's noticeably slower to display (Voodoo 3 2000 pci 16meg), but I've always considered that to be down to the mere 2gig HD. Wonder what speed those things ran/run at and how large the HD cache. Anyway, lacking any hard numbers proof, those ancient HD's are surely a significant bottleneck. Doable and infinitely better than mere dial-up via modem, but still noticeably less responsive.

IIRC, a lot of those old drives were 4200 or 4500 RPM, and there were even some 3600RPM Bigfoot drives of that era. The Bigfoot is what I consider to be the worst hard drive (for it's time) in history. Absolutely HORRIBLE performance. 128K cache as well.

Anyone out there with a Pentium MMX and a decent (20GB+) HDD running 98 on broadband?

 

[dderolph]

I have a Pentium which was originally a 75MHz processor. I later replaced the original processor with a 200MHz MMX "overdrive" processor. Have Win 98SE with 128MB of RAM and a PCI video card with 32MB of memory. IE 6 SP1 is installed. Hard drive is a 15.3GB 7200 RPM drive.

I have DSL Internet access. This old machine just can't keep the pace anymore. Using it to view streaming media is a frustrating experience. Also, pages with Flash are sluggish. This computer is probably going to the next local recycling drive.

 

[thegorx]

well, when you talk about hard drive speed you also need to talk about the controller because it doesn't matter how fast the drive is if the hard drive controller is slow. And they were slow.