Windows 7 upgrade workaround?

[VirtualLarry]

I saw this posted on FW, in a Win7 thread:
'However unlike Vista, Windows 7 upgrade will accept a restore point backup created through Microsoft system restore within XP or Vista as proof of a previous version and allow you to perform the Windows 7 upgrade on a PC with no current OS installed. You just need to make sure the restore point backup is on removeable media and accessable during the Windows 7 Upgrade. "

"Not true. As posted above Windows 7 Upgrade also can be booted of the off the Windows 7 Upgrade media and the upgrade performed as long as you can supply a Microsoft Restore Point backup on removeable media as proof of a previous version. Microsoft added this ability so those who had a hard drive failure would not have to reinstall their original OS and then do the Windows 7 upgrade again."


So my question is, what is a restore point backup, and how do you create it? (I usually disable System Restore as the first thing that I do with a system, so I never explored what is possible with it.)

I would like to install XP, create this "restore point backup", and then do a fresh, clean install off of the Win7 upgrade DVD. It would be nice if i could also do an install of 64-bit Win7, as an upgrade of XP Pro 32-bit. So how would this all work?

 

[Gooberlx2]

There's a hidden directory on your restore-enabled drives called "System Volume Information" the points should be located there.

Under the system properties, there should be a tab called "System Restore". Enabled your desired drives. Then under start-->all programs-->accessories-->system tools, choose System Restore and create a restore point.

Personally, I've always kept the system restore feature enabled. It's a good way to un-fubar a system in many circumstances.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2
There's a hidden directory on your restore-enabled drives called "System Volume Information" the points should be located there.

Under the system properties, there should be a tab called "System Restore". Enabled your desired drives. Then under start-->all programs-->accessories-->system tools, choose System Restore and create a restore point.

Personally, I've always kept the system restore feature enabled. It's a good way to un-fubar a system in many circumstances.

That's all well and good, I know how to create a restore point, but what is the procedure to export it to removable media? Is there some option to do that that I missed, or do I have to copy the files manually?

Edit: Sorry, I was thinking that "restore point backup" was something different than "restore point". Like one was created from a backup app rather than System Restore.

 

[imported_Shaq]

So if you upgrade from XP can you install the Windows 7 upgrade on a different hard drive or does it have to be the same partition? I hope I can still keep XP after the upgrade to make sure all my programs will work before I delete it. If you can install to another drive/partition it would make the restore point superfluous.

 

[RebateMonger]

VirtualLarry,

Any chance you could link the FW post about "Restore Points"? Thanks

--------------------------------
Here's a different side:

http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?t=1419245

There's a statement in the "Wiki Community Board" on the first page about proving that you own a prior version of Windows. But no reference:

"Q14: How does W7 substantiate previous product ownership during the install process. (especially if you want to do a clean install vs. an upgrade)

A14: You stick in your Windows 7 disc and boot from the disc. During the installation process it will scan your machine for an eligable copy of windows to upgrade. If it finds none, it will prompt you to remove the windows 7 disc and insert a qualifying previous version of windows disc (you must have a full version disc, upgrade discs don't qualify) after setup.exe scans the drive and verifies the previous OS disc is in the drive, then it will prompt you to remove the old version, re-insert the windows 7 disc and will continue the setup process. (Note that you can't use a previous upgrade disk for substantiation purposes - can't upgrade from an upgrade.)"

---------------------------

The "good" news would be that you can install W7 Upgrade on an empty hard drive. The "bad" news would be if, as stated, you can only use a disk containing a "FULL VERSION" of eligible software. No "Upgrade Versions" allowed? That'd be contrary to every previous Microsoft upgrade program.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
VirtualLarry,

Any chance you could link the FW post about "Restore Points"? Thanks

link

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
--------------------------------
Here's a different side:

http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?t=1419245

There's a statement in the "Wiki Community Board" on the first page about proving that you own a prior version of Windows. But no reference:

"Q14: How does W7 substantiate previous product ownership during the install process. (especially if you want to do a clean install vs. an upgrade)

A14: You stick in your Windows 7 disc and boot from the disc. During the installation process it will scan your machine for an eligable copy of windows to upgrade. If it finds none, it will prompt you to remove the windows 7 disc and insert a qualifying previous version of windows disc (you must have a full version disc, upgrade discs don't qualify) after setup.exe scans the drive and verifies the previous OS disc is in the drive, then it will prompt you to remove the old version, re-insert the windows 7 disc and will continue the setup process. (Note that you can't use a previous upgrade disk for substantiation purposes - can't upgrade from an upgrade.)"

---------------------------

The "good" news would be that you can install W7 Upgrade on an empty hard drive. The "bad" news would be if, as stated, you can only use a disk containing a "FULL VERSION" of eligible software. No "Upgrade Versions" allowed? That'd be contrary to every previous Microsoft upgrade program.

That doesn't sound right. There's never been any previous restriction about upgrading from an upgrade version of the previous OS. And the pre-sale notices said that anyone with a valid license for XP or Vista was eligible for Win7 upgrade.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
That doesn't sound right. There's never been any previous restriction about upgrading from an upgrade version of the previous OS. And the pre-sale notices said that anyone with a valid license for XP or Vista was eligible for Win7 upgrade.

Yeah, I don't think it's correct. Nobody's tried to correct the statement yet. But I just ran the Microsoft "Windows 7 Upgrade Advisor" on my own system which was installed using "Vista Business Upgrade" - marked media, using an "Upgrade-only" license key, and it passes the Upgrade requirements.

My result (from a Vista Business 32-bit UPGRADE-licensed system):
"You can do an in-place upgrade to 32-bit Windows 7 Professional, Ultimate, or Enterprise. If you choose to update to a different edition, you will need to perform a clean installation."

The "System Restore Point backup" also doesn't make much sense to me. System Restore Points are hidden system files and the would normally only be backed up by making a full system backup, which in the case of Vista, would be to a .VHD file.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
VirtualLarry,

Any chance you could link the FW post about "Restore Points"? Thanks

--------------------------------
Here's a different side:

http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?t=1419245

There's a statement in the "Wiki Community Board" on the first page about proving that you own a prior version of Windows. But no reference:

"Q14: How does W7 substantiate previous product ownership during the install process. (especially if you want to do a clean install vs. an upgrade)

A14: You stick in your Windows 7 disc and boot from the disc. During the installation process it will scan your machine for an eligable copy of windows to upgrade. If it finds none, it will prompt you to remove the windows 7 disc and insert a qualifying previous version of windows disc (you must have a full version disc, upgrade discs don't qualify) after setup.exe scans the drive and verifies the previous OS disc is in the drive, then it will prompt you to remove the old version, re-insert the windows 7 disc and will continue the setup process. (Note that you can't use a previous upgrade disk for substantiation purposes - can't upgrade from an upgrade.)"

---------------------------

The "good" news would be that you can install W7 Upgrade on an empty hard drive. The "bad" news would be if, as stated, you can only use a disk containing a "FULL VERSION" of eligible software. No "Upgrade Versions" allowed? That'd be contrary to every previous Microsoft upgrade program.

This appears to the source of that info, although not the part about upgrade verisons not being eligible. It appears that part was added in eslewhere: http://social.answers.microsof...42ba-97e5-ae18a0286a84

from the posting user's profile:

7tester from MSN QnA

My Website : http://windows7qna.ning.com/

I'm a police officer in Dallas, Texas. An IT semi-pro and all around good guy. I know quite a bit about computers and Microsoft operating systems since I grew up with them starting way back in the 6th grade with Windows 3.1 and DOS which is where I learned hacking. Go ahead, ask away. If I don't know the answer, I'll certain find someone who does. I'm here to help!

The info sounds plausible (I know Win 2k worked this way), but it's not exactly official.

edit: Either way, it seems that the Windows 7 install would prompt you type in your old key as well. If not, people would buy the upgrade, burn a WinXP .iso they got via bit torrent, and use that to provide Win 7 the credentials it was looking for to get a 'legal' copy of Win 7 for $50.

edit 2: Some info from Paul Thurrott who generally knows his Windows stuff...

http://community.winsupersite....bout-x64-upgrades.aspx

"Can I use a Windows 7 Upgrade version to perform a clean install of the OS?"

This is becoming particularly antsy for people because they want to take advantage of the time-limited Windows 7 presale, which starts tomorrow.

So, what the heck, I asked.

The answer, I'm told, is ... Yes. You can perform a clean install of Windows 7 with the Upgrade media, as you could with Windows Vista.

no specifics on how exactly though.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: nitromullet
This appears to the source of that info, although not the part about upgrade verisons not being eligible. It appears that part was added in eslewhere: http://social.answers.microsof...42ba-97e5-ae18a0286a84

from the posting user's profile:

My Website :[/b] http://windows7qna.ning.com/
I'm a police officer in Dallas, Texas. An IT semi-pro and all around good guy. I know quite a bit about computers and Microsoft operating systems since I grew up with them starting way back in the 6th grade with Windows 3.1 and DOS which is where I learned hacking. Go ahead, ask away. If I don't know the answer, I'll certain find someone who does. I'm here to help!

Great job. Thanks!

 

[nitromullet]

I've been doing a bit more research on this, and it doesn't appear that a Vista upgrade key allowed you to verify the upgrade simply by supplying a disc of a previous version of Windows. So, I'm guessing that info is incorrect. I don't see MS adding back a feature they previously removed. However, it does appear that Vista allowed you to install your upgrade version of Vista to the HD as a full install without a key (you can run Vista for 30 days without one), and then you could 'upgrade' your Vista install with your upgrade key. Basically, you install the OS twice and only supply it with the upgrade key the second time.

http://www.winsupersite.com/sh...ista_upgrade_clean.asp

...maybe this will work with Windows 7 as well.

 

[nitromullet]

You can definitely do a clean install though. By clean install, I mean wipe out your previous install. Your Win 7 upgrade just needs to verify that your previous install existed before it wipes it out.

Straight from MS: http://store.microsoft.com/mic...Windows-7/category/102

* Running Windows Vista?
* If you have Windows Vista, you can purchase Windows 7 Upgrade versions. You can do a clean install (back up your files, clean install, and reinstall your applications) or an in-place upgrade (Windows 7 installs over Windows Vista).

* Running earlier versions?
* If you have Windows XP or Windows 2000, you can purchase Windows 7 Upgrade versions. But you must back up your files, clean install, and reinstall your applications.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: nitromullet
Your Win 7 upgrade just needs to verify that your previous install existed before it wipes it out.

It's clear that Microsoft allows a "clean install", and has some way to do it. The question mark comes with how does MS do the verfiication? And what happens when your hard drive fails and you need to install your W7 Upgrade to a blank hard drive?

I doubt that MS will allow the old "double-shuffle-install" that was used to install a Vista Upgrade to an empty hard drive. I think they have something else in mind, but it's not yet apparent what that "something" is.

As noted, this isn't just a "How can I get away with buying an Upgrade when I don't even have an XP or Vista license?" question. It also affects recovery of a failed system.

For instance, I haven't purchased a "Full" copy of Windows since Win 3.11. That means that my current Vista licenses are upgrades from XP licenses, which are upgrades from Win98 licenses, which were upgrades from Win95, which were upgrades from Win 3.11. If Microsoft had always followed a "no upgrade media permissible" policy, and my hard drive fails, technically, this means I have to start re-installing with Win 3.11, working my way up to Vista, which I'll finally be allowed to upgrade to Win7.

 

[nerp]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
For instance, I haven't purchased a "Full" copy of Windows since Win 3.11. That means that my current Vista licenses are upgrades from XP licenses, which are upgrades from Win98 licenses, which were upgrades from Win95, which were upgrades from Win 3.11. If Microsoft had always followed a "no upgrade media permissible" policy, and my hard drive fails, technically, this means I have to start re-installing with Win 3.11, working my way up to Vista, which I'll finally be allowed to upgrade to Win7.

Heh. That would actually be an interesting experiment. I'd read an article in which someone did that.

 

[imported_Shaq]

If it is already installed I imagine it would accept the upgrade version. If you have a blank hard drive and have to supply the DVD to verify your purchase, using an upgrade DVD may or may not work. That is my guess.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
It's clear that Microsoft allows a "clean install", and has some way to do it. The question mark comes with how does MS do the verfiication? And what happens when your hard drive fails and you need to install your W7 Upgrade to a blank hard drive?

Yeah, I get what the deal is. I've been reading quite a few forums, and I've seen people ask about being able to do a clean install or an in place upgrade here and elsewhere, so I figured I'd post that.

What we're actually talking about in this thread is a "full install" workaround with an upgrade key without having to actually install a previous version of Windows. A "clean install" is simply a wipe of the previous installation by the new version.

I purchased Vista Ultimate full retail in 2007 for $400! So, I jumped at the opportunity to upgrade the two laptops and desktop in my household running Vista to Win 7 for half that (2 Home Prem/1 Pro). The laptops won't get the OS re-installed very often, so a no hassle install is not that big of a deal, but my gaming rig gets hardware upgrades and OS wipes pretty regularly.

As noted, this isn't just a "How can I get away with buying an Upgrade when I don't even have an XP or Vista license?" question. It also affects recovery of a failed system.

I get that too. As previously noted, I purchased a retail copy of Vista and I have two laptops that came with Vista installed. I am not condoning, advising, or otherwise interested in installing a Windows 7 upgrade contrary to the EULA.

For instance, I haven't purchased a "Full" copy of Windows since Win 3.11. That means that my current Vista licenses are upgrades from XP licenses, which are upgrades from Win98 licenses, which were upgrades from Win95, which were upgrades from Win 3.11. If Microsoft had always followed a "no upgrade media permissible" policy, and my hard drive fails, technically, this means I have to start re-installing with Win 3.11, working my way up to Vista, which I'll finally be allowed to upgrade to Win7.

LOL! That would be an all day event.

Honestly, my real concern is not time - I piss away plenty of that on my PC as it is. So, I can easily install Vista and then upgrade with a clean install of Win 7. My main concern is compatibility. My 780i motherboard already won't install Vista from my pre-SP1 media unless I take out a stick of RAM, and my laptop won't install Vista at all (BSOD) unless it's SP1. I had to slipstream SP1 into Vista myself to re-install the OS because Dell doesn't provide install media and I had blown away the restore partition.