Window for Palestinian state 'rapidly closing': EU

[kylebisme]

My father and I spent three weeks in South Africa just over a year ago, rented a car in Jo'burg, drove to Gaborone, then over to Kruger, down to Swaziland, over through Lesotho, down to Port Elisabeth, and flew out of Cape Town, with various stops along the way. What I saw of the region jives with what Liu has said of it.

There's nothing better in oppression and denying people the freedom of speech and such.

Well, moving back towards the topic of the thread, have you heard what what F. W. de Klerk recently said on BBC Radio 4?:

What I supported as a younger politician was exactly what the whole world now supports for Israel and Palestine, namely separate nation states will be the solution. In our case we failed. There were three main reasons. We failed because the whites wanted too much land for themselves. We failed because the majority of blacks said this is not how we want our political rights. And we failed because we became economically totally integrated. We became an economic omelet and you can never again divide an omelet into the white and the yellow of the egg. And we realized in the early eighties we had landed in a place which has become morally unjustified.

What I quoted there starts about at about 2:25 in, but I recommend listening to the whole interview. There's another part a bit further in where he elaborates on the farm life situation you mention which I'm curious to hear your opinion of.

But again back to to the topic at hand, I'm surprised to see you opinion on South Africa in contrast to those I've seen from you on Israel and Palestine, particularly being aware of prominent South Africans such as F. W. de Klerk, Nelson Mandela, and Desmond Tutu's position on both. Your arguments on the latter remind me of a few guys I met at a bar in Bloemfontein, one of which wound up buying my father and I dinner at restaurant where we didn't see a black person within sight of. All three were completely hospitable to my father and I, but the two who left before dinner were brazenly disdainful of blacks and openly longed for a return to Apartheid. The third wasn't a flagrant bigot, but over dinner explained how Apartheid could have worked out if whites had been more equitable in the distribution of land (wish I would have had de Klerk's "omelet" analogy for him then). So I'm curious to hear: how did you come to see the follies of Apartheid in South Africa, yet also be such an ardent supporter of Israel's version of it?

 

[randomrogue]

So I'm curious to hear: how did you come to see the follies of Apartheid in South Africa, yet also be such an ardent supporter of Israel's version of it?

There is a definite difference between the two. I'm not going to defend the horrible conditions on the ground but the way they got there is very different. They fought wars. Multiple wars. It really wasn't until Arafat died that there was any hope of peace either. I'm not hopeful for peace but I'd like to see a 2 state solution happen at least. Your omelet analogy is great though so there's "food" for thought.

 

[kylebisme]

Sure there are plenty of differences, but Boers established and expanded their colonization of the region by fighting the indigenous population much as Zionists did in Palestine, and other Europeans all over the globe. So, I'm at a loss as to what you are hinting at by bringing up the wars here.

Anyway, how do you figure there was no hope for peace before Arafat was assassinated? It seems to me that Arafat and Rabin were well on their way towards a peaceful two state solution prior to the assassination of Rabin. As for resolution, I'd prefer a South Africa style Truth and Reconciliation Commission leading to one democratic state with equal rights for all, but I wouldn't be opposed to a a two state solution on the basis of international law if such a solution could be arranged. Also, De Klerk deserves the credit for the omelet analogy, but I agree with him whole heatedly; Israel and Palestine have become one economic omelet, and I've no clue how such creation could rightly be separated now.

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

My father and I spent three weeks in South Africa just over a year ago, rented a car in Jo'burg, drove to Gaborone, then over to Kruger, down to Swaziland, over through Lesotho, down to Port Elisabeth, and flew out of Cape Town, with various stops along the way. What I saw of the region jives with what Liu has said of it.


Well, moving back towards the topic of the thread, have you heard what what F. W. de Klerk recently said on BBC Radio 4?:



What I quoted there starts about at about 2:25 in, but I recommend listening to the whole interview. There's another part a bit further in where he elaborates on the farm life situation you mention which I'm curious to hear your opinion of.

But again back to to the topic at hand, I'm surprised to see you opinion on South Africa in contrast to those I've seen from you on Israel and Palestine, particularly being aware of prominent South Africans such as F. W. de Klerk, Nelson Mandela, and Desmond Tutu's position on both. Your arguments on the latter remind me of a few guys I met at a bar in Bloemfontein, one of which wound up buying my father and I dinner at restaurant where we didn't see a black person within sight of. All three were completely hospitable to my father and I, but the two who left before dinner were brazenly disdainful of blacks and openly longed for a return to Apartheid. The third wasn't a flagrant bigot, but over dinner explained how Apartheid could have worked out if whites had been more equitable in the distribution of land (wish I would have had de Klerk's "omelet" analogy for him then). So I'm curious to hear: how did you come to see the follies of Apartheid in South Africa, yet also be such an ardent supporter of Israel's version of it?

lol those Free Staters are very hospitable. Brandy and rugby all they care about lol

See we where raised in a Christian environment where respect to elders and others were the main thing that was drilled into us. I was at that time a bit young to see really or realize really what was going on and such. Just heard my dads and others discussion when they had friends but briefly as kids weren't allowed in the grown ups company. So I can't really add to the political view as I was a youngster but I can add how we grow up. Honestly to me I didnt realize nor many other kids of the time of people being oppressed as the mates we had except when going to school was the black children on the farm. They were my and others living on farms best mates. When we go hunting we each grab a rifle and went hunting. Other thing is you see on the Tv of this Boer driving a pick up with the bloke oaks sitting at the back. That looks bad in one way but what the people don't realize a Datsun pickup can only seat 2 or 3. Driver a kid and a woman maybe. But we always had a sort of rule. Woman infront the rest at the back. Me who ever. So later on it came accustomed to the farmer sitting a lone up front not because the rest are inferior because of all at back rule. Also the workers was scouts and they had to spot the stock and in front is not a good way.

For Nelson Mandela our generation becoming to age after he was jailed we didn't know much. You know in The Rock where Sean Connery said You locked me up longer than Nelson Mandela what you want from me to run for president? Thats exactly how he was to us. Someone who was hidden with the key thrown away never to be mentioned. We missed most of the bombing era's as well as the major riots which was in the 70's. I was born in 78. In school we did the history from Van Riebeeck to the Zulu's, to the English past that country handed over from the British to a few presidents after that. Nothing of the 70's or anything as thats were it ended with our country.

The thing we love most in this country is our sport and I think International Isolation from that hurt the country more than anything else. And thats one of the major reasons I think De Klerk and rest started to look to end this isolation. I mean with sport we had our rivalries we developed between provincial teams as there were no International action after the NZ tour and flour bomb incidents. There were nothing we couldn't produce or do for ourselves. And we did it well. I mean none of those Sanctions really hurt the country like the Isolation from sport. Sport like rugby was in our blood and taking that away was like taking a big piece of the country away.

Politicains can say what they want but thats the one of the big reason
we abolished Apartheid. When we gave back Namibia then the things about Mandela and the bombings started to came out. Suddenly it was like another world that we lived in and we only notice it now. With that I mean things that happened and the oppression of the people and such which we didn't notice. Then it was 92 and the country was up for election and suddenly people like Zuma and others were jumping out the cupboards out of nowhere.
No the general feeling is/was or still is that they are going to get us back and the ones who's going to feel that is us who were too young to realize what was going on or to do anything but will pay for the sins of our ancestors and such. Mandela is a great man and unfortunately he was too old. Mbeki was lickily under Mandela's wing a lot so that hatred was not much there as they were see it more than hard work and opening a whole nations eyes than anything else. But the ones who were the youths and grew up slogans like kill the boer kill the farmer are now the ones taking charge. Unfortunately they use the past and the people vote for a face rather than what he did the last election. I mean they make the same promises but none of them they actually follow up or anything.

Like that a large parts of the so called white lost interest in politics and don't even bother to go vote. The colored community as well. They were in the middle when apartheid was going now their still in the middle. 99 percent of them are non ANC followers. My wife is colored and we live in Cape Flats area in Cape Town.

Now for the Israeli part I'm not pro Israel fuck the rest and such. We learned about Israel at school the WW and WWII so on and so on. But our history teacher came from Israel when he was a child. So he told us a lot of things what happened and what the problems is. Funny enough he didn't had a hatred for the germans but explained objectively what Hitler's real ideas where and some of the others. We started to learn about Israeli's assisting us with weaponry and 90 percent of our designs were influence by them. They helped us cause we were fighting a war against Swapo which was backed by the cubans. And it wasn't a war were the enemy is clear as daylight or wearing army clothes. They were gorilla fighters with Soviet weaponry who's main things were ambushes and such. That was a battle no one was going to win but what we did win was when the Cubans landed here with their forces and we nailed about 400 of them in a couple of days. That was the end of the cubans trip to Africa.

But my main influence came with Israel when I started to look at what was going on really in the middle east. Think people here might think I'm a Islam Hater but in fact I have many friends and of my wifes family that is muslim. You can google Colin Stanfield and see what I mean. he's my wifes uncle.
But here the muslim will put their wife and children before their own and wealth. They follow their religion like we do follow ours but there's not the believe that its the only law and those who don't follow are consider the enemy and such. They resent the way woman and children are being treated in the middle east as well as the strict law they adhere to. I will say things about Islamic laws in the middle east because the religion is being used for personal gain to forward the cause of others. If you are brain washed from birth you cant see really what is going on. In democratic countries luckily that strict schooling is not there so the freedom to make up your own mind is there. I always say pink yellow green black white brown what ever color or believe you are when you cut yourself red blood will come out no matter what race. Every human has his own mind and got it for a reason and can make it up himself. But that can only happen when he grew up with a free mind and choices were his own.

In the middle east no. The people were brought up with the believe Israel is evil and must go or be all wiped out. War after war. Ground gave back but its the same thing over and over. So one has come to a reality like they do there will be no peace do whatever to protect your country. So for me its really the small little nation trying to make a living surrounded by people brought up to hate them and to try and drive them from the middle east. There will be no peace the Islamic laws over there ensure that.

Coming back to the apartheid thing and people thinking those times were better is really because all tough they lived in townships locked from the rest until its monday to go to work most of them had jobs working at factories, for farmers in shops there were lots of jobs and employment wasn't hard to find. They even had schools but its the opportunities to reach for bigger goals and to be rich and so wasn't there. Some of them did well. But the majority were always earning low salaries. The people who came from India and Pakistan al tough had a great time. The Portuguese as well. Reason was every little small town there will be a Indian, a Portuguese and a Pakistani. They will have shops where one is a whole sale seller one a fish and chips cafe and the other selling all kinds of goods. I mean doesn't matter the size of the town. They were classed as part of the black population but they could live between the white people or do whatever they want. Now in the old regime people from other color didn't pay taxes. The white people did. So the people from those groups saved their cash thousands by thousands as their businesses were making a huge amount of money tax free. When apartheid ended they started to spend the money buy them posh cars and such. Now the Muslims here which is a big deal pakistani also have one believe. When theyre children are born they will set a xxx amount of money away from them until they old enough to go to Mekka. They are basically setup when they are around 14 to 16 with the money the parents saved up from them. So parts did flourish. We also had our Pagad who tried to use Islam to make people believe they are fighting gangsters where in the end they were lifted out as the biggest drug merchants. But the Gangsters didn't stand back as they did some of their own Mossad sort of things by shooting them in court and disappeared without no one who realized. Both parties were muslim as well. But after a few of their leaders were arrested the extremist terror acts came to a end. Our intelligence forces were trained by Israeli members back then and a lot of tactics use today we got from Israel. I was in the police for 7 years so I learned more from the history of the weapons and what Israel contributed to our training methods and other things. Especially our task force. You can Israeli in them the way they move especially with anti terrorist situations. We just didn't had the experience.

So I'm not standing by a side cause their tough shit ad so I stand by one because the believes and where one is not govern by a religion used by others to help themselves and not think about their country, Israeli leaders think about their country first and they will gain no riches or King treatment out of it like in the Islamic arab nations.

But if you ever cross South Africans in a war just throw them a rugby ball and watch the magic happen

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

There is a definite difference between the two. I'm not going to defend the horrible conditions on the ground but the way they got there is very different. They fought wars. Multiple wars. It really wasn't until Arafat died that there was any hope of peace either. I'm not hopeful for peace but I'd like to see a 2 state solution happen at least. Your omelet analogy is great though so there's "food" for thought.

Apartheid was really the minority oppressing the majority in a country. In Israel the jews are majority so you don't need apartheid to exercise that as you are already the controlling majority.

 

[kylebisme]

The apartheid is in the West Bank, where Palestinians out number Israelis 5 to 1, the latter enjoying full civil rights while the former are denied anything of the sort. In Gaza it was more like 10 to 1 before Israel pulled the settlers and solders out, leaving it as sort of a bantustan. As for Israel within the Green Line, no there isn't apartheid there, but rather a Jim Crow style system of institutionalized discrimination.

As for your elaboration on South Africa, again it jives with my own understanding of the place. A black guide right around our age (I was born in 1976) at a game reserve outside of Oudtshoorn said much the same about his childhood as you have about yours. But de Klerk's comments about his childhood ring true to my understanding of the history:

When I was a youngster we lived separate lives. I had black playmates on my father's little farm, but in the evening we went to our different homes. They never slept over with me, I never slept over with them. It was an unnatural relationship.

Is this true of your childhood too?

 

[cybrsage]

There is no apartheid. You need to learn what the word means...when you do, you will stop using it and feel silly.

 

[Lemon law]

There is no apartheid. You need to learn what the word means...when you do, you will stop using it and feel silly.

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Well cybrsage, if you think there is no apartheid is Israel what do you suggest we call it.

Because tomorrow there will be born new born children within the current borders of Israel. Those born to Palestinian parents can expect greatly diminished lives and those born to Israeli Jews can look forward to better lives.

When both of those children are born with equal human rights under the US ideals of human rights, tell us again why its not Israeli Apartheid in the pure sense?

 

[kylebisme]

There is no apartheid. You need to learn what the word means...when you do, you will stop using it and feel silly.

Here's a quote from Desmond Tutu on the subject:

I have been to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, and I have witnessed the racially segregated roads and housing that reminded me so much of the conditions we experienced in South Africa under the racist system of Apartheid. I have witnessed the humiliation of Palestinian men, women, and children made to wait hours at Israeli military checkpoints routinely when trying to make the most basic of trips to visit relatives or attend school or college, and this humiliation is familiar to me and the many black South Africans who were corralled and regularly insulted by the security forces of the Apartheid government.

So, Cybersage, can you explain why you believe people like Desmond Tutu and myself are misusing the term in question, or are you just going to duck out of the thread like you did when you were unable to provide an alternative to the common understanding of the Biblical phrase "the tokens of a damsel's virginity" in this thread?

 

[Nebor]

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Well cybrsage, if you think there is no apartheid is Israel what do you suggest we call it.

Because tomorrow there will be born new born children within the current borders of Israel. Those born to Palestinian parents can expect greatly diminished lives and those born to Israeli Jews can look forward to better lives.

When both of those children are born with equal human rights under the US ideals of human rights, tell us again why its not Israeli Apartheid in the pure sense?

How can you say that? We all know it's simple a matter of weeks, or days, (or maybe even negative days somewhere in the past) until the entire world aligns against Israel and they're forced to give the entire country back to it's rightful owners, the Palestinians. Then it will be the Palestinians who run more engineering firms per capita than any other nation in the world, it will be the Palestinians with the most fearsome, highly trained military in the world, it will be the Palestinians who will have the better lives!

 

[cybrsage]

It is easy, Israel does not want to continue to control the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They currently have military control but not administrative control, over the areas.

Once there is a peace agreement reached (which ends the warring), Palestine can get a nation created for them.

South Africa was entirely different. This should be obvious to anyone who looks at both the history of SA and the history of modern Israel.

The Arab citizens of Israel have the same rights as the Jewish citizens of Israel. The black citizens of SA did not have the same rights as the white citizens of SA. This alone shows the apartheid label as a lie. Those who are not citizens of Israel do not get the same rights as those who are citizens of Israel. This is the same as every other country on Earth. We should not expect, and certainly not demand, that Israel give non-citizens all the rights of citizens. No other nation would do that, so it is wrong to demand Israel do it too.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

It is easy, Israel does not want to continue to control the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They currently have military control but not administrative control, over the areas.

Once there is a peace agreement reached (which ends the warring), Palestine can get a nation created for them.

South Africa was entirely different. This should be obvious to anyone who looks at both the history of SA and the history of modern Israel.

The Arab citizens of Israel have the same rights as the Jewish citizens of Israel. The black citizens of SA did not have the same rights as the white citizens of SA. This alone shows the apartheid label as a lie. Those who are not citizens of Israel do not get the same rights as those who are citizens of Israel. This is the same as every other country on Earth. We should not expect, and certainly not demand, that Israel give non-citizens all the rights of citizens. No other nation would do that, so it is wrong to demand Israel do it too.

You do realize the irony in what you're saying, right?

"Israeli" inhabitants of the West Bank can go to Jerusalem, enjoy tons of clean water in their swimming pools and settlement gardens, have full rights of property ownership, have full freedom of travel through the whole of the West Bank and Israel "proper," can tear down Palestinian homes to build more homes, and so on. The native Palestinians can not.

It is quite amusing to see how many logical fallacies, ad hominem arguments, non sequiturs, and changes of subject pro-Israeli posters make in these threads. Oh, there was a bombing, or a shooting? OK, in 1948 some European invaders thought it was their God-given right to massacre the inhabitants of many of the villages inside the Green Line. There are two sides to this conflict, that of the native and that of the invader. Contrary to all the hasbara, the Palestinians are not invaders, as their Biblical names suggest. They didn't come from Jordan, or Egypt, or Syria. They have no place to "go back to." They've lived on that land for HUNDREDS of years. LOVE THY NEIGHBOR, OR PACK THY BAGS.

This conflict only exists because Israel refuses to assimilate the native population.

And don't start saying that Arab Israelis have equal rights. They're shoved into ghettos. And are discriminated against quite openly, read an Israeli paper, I don't need to provide any sources.

I also don't need to dignify any of you nuts with an actual response.

 

[EagleKeeper]

You do realize the irony in what you're saying, right?

"Israeli" inhabitants of the West Bank can go to Jerusalem, enjoy tons of clean water in their swimming pools and settlement gardens, have full rights of property ownership, have full freedom of travel through the whole of the West Bank and Israel "proper," can tear down Palestinian homes to build more homes, and so on. The native Palestinians can not.

It is quite amusing to see how many logical fallacies, ad hominem arguments, non sequiturs, and changes of subject pro-Israeli posters make in these threads. Oh, there was a bombing, or a shooting? OK, in 1948 some European invaders thought it was their God-given right to massacre the inhabitants of many of the villages inside the Green Line. There are two sides to this conflict, that of the native and that of the invader. Contrary to all the hasbara, the Palestinians are not invaders, as their Biblical names suggest. They didn't come from Jordan, or Egypt, or Syria. They have no place to "go back to." They've lived on that land for HUNDREDS of years. LOVE THY NEIGHBOR, OR PACK THY BAGS.

This conflict only exists because Israel refuses to assimilate the native population.

And don't start saying that Arab Israelis have equal rights. They're shoved into ghettos. And are discriminated against quite openly, read an Israeli paper, I don't need to provide any sources.

I also don't need to dignify any of you nuts with an actual response.

The conflict in '48 existed because the Arab nations
1) Did not want a Palestinian state
2) Did not want a Jewish state

Trying to ensure the second failed.
There is potential for the first if the Palestinians and their puppet masters are willing to to accept the second.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

The conflict in '48 existed because the Arab nations
1) Did not want a Palestinian state
2) Did not want a Jewish state

Trying to ensure the second failed.
There is potential for the first if the Palestinians and their puppet masters are willing to to accept the second.

Let us assume, in order to properly frame your argument, that the "puppet masters" are in agreement here. Draw some borders for me. What happens to Ma'ale Adumim, a settlement so big Israel calls it a city? What happens to the Dead Sea Valley. Where does this Palestinian state go? Explain and outline your potential state. How to residents of Nablus get to Ramallah? How do residents of Bethlehem get to Nablus? Do we just let them sort the Swiss cheese out?

FORGET Jerusalem, OK? Israel is keeping all of it in this hypothetical situation. What about the wall? There are Palestinians on both sides of it. Neighborhoods like arRam are cut in half. Borders? Water?

To clarify, since some people reading this might not be Palestinians who've had to begrudgingly deal with "the facts on the ground" Ma'ale Adumim lies East of the Palestinian village of Abu Dis. The only way into Abu Dis from anything North of Abu Dis is around Ma'ale Adumim, accessing part of, what used to be an "Israeli only" highway. Access in and out of the highway is controlled via checkpoints, but nowadays, Palestinians can use it as a detour to get to Southern areas like Bethlehem. There was a series of promised "Palestinian" bypass highways that would alleviate the detours and traffic caused by barred access to Jerusalem, but they never materialized.

 

[cybrsage]

You do realize the irony in what you're saying, right?

"Israeli" inhabitants of the West Bank can go to Jerusalem, enjoy tons of clean water in their swimming pools and settlement gardens, have full rights of property ownership, have full freedom of travel through the whole of the West Bank and Israel "proper," can tear down Palestinian homes to build more homes, and so on. The native Palestinians can not.

US Citizen inhabitants of Mexicali can travel to Calexico and enjoy tons of clean water in their swimming pools and settlement gardens, have full rights of property ownership, have full freedom of travel...

I think you need to learn what citizens means else you will continue to say things which make you look foolish. Of course non-citizens do not have the same freedoms as citizens, are you stupid?

...non-sensical rant removed...

This conflict only exists because Israel refuses to assimilate the native population.

No, this conflict only exists because the Palestinians have said no to all peace accords.

And don't start saying that Arab Israelis have equal rights. They're shoved into ghettos. And are discriminated against quite openly, read an Israeli paper, I don't need to provide any sources.

LOL!!! Of course you do, don't be an arrogant loser! "I am right and I do not need to provide any support for my statement" LOL wow.

I also don't need to dignify any of you nuts with an actual response.

Your hubris would be comical if it was not so sad.

 

[cybrsage]

Let us assume, in order to properly frame your argument, that the "puppet masters" are in agreement here. Draw some borders for me. What happens to Ma'ale Adumim, a settlement so big Israel calls it a city? What happens to the Dead Sea Valley. Where does this Palestinian state go? Explain and outline your potential state. How to residents of Nablus get to Ramallah? How do residents of Bethlehem get to Nablus? Do we just let them sort the Swiss cheese out?

FORGET Jerusalem, OK? Israel is keeping all of it in this hypothetical situation. What about the wall? There are Palestinians on both sides of it. Neighborhoods like arRam are cut in half. Borders? Water?

To clarify, since some people reading this might not be Palestinians who've had to begrudgingly deal with "the facts on the ground" Ma'ale Adumim lies East of the Palestinian village of Abu Dis. The only way into Abu Dis from anything North of Abu Dis is around Ma'ale Adumim, accessing part of, what used to be an "Israeli only" highway. Access in and out of the highway is controlled via checkpoints, but nowadays, Palestinians can use it as a detour to get to Southern areas like Bethlehem. There was a series of promised "Palestinian" bypass highways that would alleviate the detours and traffic caused by barred access to Jerusalem, but they never materialized.

The never materialized because of security issues...you do know that Palestinians recently fired an anti-tank missile at a clearly marked yellow school bus filled with children, right?

When the Palestinians do things like that, no one is going to say Israel has to give them more places to shoot from...

However, to address the other issues, that is what peace negotiations are for. The Palestinians are demanding Israel do things before they will even start negotiations...such as stopping building homes. Last time they demanded this, Israel stopped and the Palestinians still refusted to meet for peace negotiations. Israel says they will not be taken for fools a second time, so they say they will not stop...stopping has to be part of a negotiated peace agreement.

The Palestinians have no real power here...and time is on the side of the Israelies. If the Palestinians want to keep saying they will not talk peace until Israel does everything they demand, so be it. But the Palestinian people are the real losers of that kind of action.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

US Citizen inhabitants of Mexicali can travel to Calexico and enjoy tons of clean water in their swimming pools and settlement gardens, have full rights of property ownership, have full freedom of travel...

I think you need to learn what citizens means else you will continue to say things which make you look foolish. Of course non-citizens do not have the same freedoms as citizens, are you stupid?

The settlers who are illegally occupying the West Bank are considered legal citizens of Israel. They're allowed to appropriate the resources of the West Bank while the...well, what do we call the natives of the West Bank? I am not stupid. What do you call the natives of the West Bank who are marginalized by external Israeli citizens? They do not reside within the borders of the state of Israel. What is Mexicali? Keep one argument. The Palestinians are not the illegal immigrants in your confused argument, the Israeli settlers are. Look up settler.


No, this conflict only exists because the Palestinians have said no to all peace accords.

No, prior to Zionist conquest in Palestine, the native/long-time Jewish populations of an Arab land were left in peace. The Palestinians aren't making problems, they're trying to deal with a 60+ year old problem.

LOL!!! Of course you do, don't be an arrogant loser! "I am right and I do not need to provide any support for my statement" LOL wow.

Fine.

https://news.google.com/news/story?...sult&ct=more-results&resnum=4&ved=0CE4QqgIwAw

 

[mrSHEiK124]

The never materialized because of security issues...you do know that Palestinians recently fired an anti-tank missile at a clearly marked yellow school bus filled with children, right?

When the Palestinians do things like that, no one is going to say Israel has to give them more places to shoot from...

However, to address the other issues, that is what peace negotiations are for. The Palestinians are demanding Israel do things before they will even start negotiations...such as stopping building homes. Last time they demanded this, Israel stopped and the Palestinians still refusted to meet for peace negotiations. Israel says they will not be taken for fools a second time, so they say they will not stop...stopping has to be part of a negotiated peace agreement.

The Palestinians have no real power here...and time is on the side of the Israelies. If the Palestinians want to keep saying they will not talk peace until Israel does everything they demand, so be it. But the Palestinian people are the real losers of that kind of action.

Israel refuses to allow Hamas and Fatah to sign a peace treaty in order to more effectively manage their own affairs. Now we're just bouncing non-sequiturs off each other.

The settlements are illegal, are you forgetting this?

 

[mrSHEiK124]

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=Israeli+settlers+clash+Palestinians

 

[mrSHEiK124]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-on-Palestinians-who-marry-Israeli-Arabs.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-130282/Jewish-settlers-kill-Palestinian-girl.html

http://www.jordanvalleysolidarity.o...-soldiers-in-hadidiya&catid=15:2010&Itemid=21

http://silwanic.net/?p=11279

http://electronicintifada.net/content/settlers-kill-2-palestinian-teens-soldiers-attack-funeral/9215

 

[cybrsage]

The settlers who are illegally occupying the West Bank are considered legal citizens of Israel. They're allowed to appropriate the resources of the West Bank while the...well, what do we call the natives of the West Bank? I am not stupid. What do you call the natives of the West Bank who are marginalized by external Israeli citizens? They do not reside within the borders of the state of Israel. What is Mexicali? Keep one argument. The Palestinians are not the illegal immigrants in your confused argument, the Israeli settlers are. Look up settler.

Mexicali is a city in Mexico which strattles the US/Mexico border. The US side it Calimexico is the US side of the city. You may not be aware of this, but citizens from one nation often live in other nations. They honestly do. When they return to their home nation, they actually get all the rights of their home nation. However, those who are not citizens of that nation do not get the same rights as those who are citizens. That should not suprise you.

No, prior to Zionist conquest in Palestine,...

Stopped you there. You cannot blame the government of Israel for things done prior to the formation of the nation of Israel.

Fine.

https://news.google.com/news/story?...sult&ct=more-results&resnum=4&ved=0CE4QqgIwAw

How about actually posting a snippet which says what you want? Linking to a google search does nothing to support your position.

Post the relevant portions of pages showing support for your position, along with a link to the entire article so it can be seen in context. That is how you support yourself. It is not a hard concept to understand.

 

[kylebisme]

It is easy, Israel does not want to continue to control the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

So you say, but how could anyone rightly take your word on this over that of the Israeli Prime Minster's party platform, which states "The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river"?

They currently have military control but not administrative control, over the areas.

Where do you come up with such nonsense. Here in reality, the Civil Administration in Judea and Samaria wield administrative control over much of the West Bank, and of course portions of the West Bank Israel has unilaterally annexed are under Israeli administrative control too. This map depicts the lines on which Israel has divided control of the West Bank, while the maps in the Wiki article on Bantustan show how the apartheid government in South Africa carved up control over that region much the same.

The Arab citizens of Israel have the same rights as the Jewish citizens of Israel. The black citizens of SA did not have the same rights as the white citizens of SA. This alone shows the apartheid label as a lie.

Rather, this alone shows you aren't paying attention here. As I said in my previous reply, "As for Israel within the Green Line, no there isn't apartheid there, but rather a Jim Crow style system of institutionalized discrimination." See "Supreme Court backs Jews-only housing in Jaffa neighborhood" for a flagrant example of that, and "Christmas Trees Are Still Banned in Nazareth Illit" for another recent example.

 

[kylebisme]

No, prior to Zionist conquest in Palestine,..

Stopped you there. You cannot blame the government of Israel for things done prior to the formation of the nation of Israel.

That's just a reference to the historical period prior to the creation of the state of Israel, and nowhere did he attempt to "blame the government of Israel" for anything that happened prior to the establishment of Israel. What's stopping you from comprehending such facts?

 

[kylebisme]

The conflict in '48 existed because the Arab nations
1) Did not want a Palestinian state
2) Did not want a Jewish state

Trying to ensure the second failed.
There is potential for the first if the Palestinians and their puppet masters are willing to to accept the second.

Blame Arabs with vague arguments and without sight any sources. Do you ever do anything else?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Arguments have been presented in detail and rejected completely because you are unable/unwilling to read