Incorrect fix? We don't even known that the drive is failing (though it is a strong contender). I don't think an SSD is the answer. A new DRIVE may be right, but this doesn't sound like a slow drive problem. If a new drive is needed, then that opens the SSD value discussion.
OK, just experienced the first lockup since starting this thread. Prior to the lockup, I noticed the PC is responding more slowly than usual (this was quite a while after the PC switched the desktop to the basic Windows color scheme). Immediately preceding the lockup phase, I had opened a pdf in Acrobat and entered the print dialog box. That's when the lockup begins.
When it started locking up, the keyboard was non-responsive - no Alt-Tab or Ctrl-Alt-Del. Mouse was still moving and context sensitive (i.e., mouse pointer changed depending on what it was hovering over). Then mouse pointed became context insensitive. Then mouse froze.
Windows still up during all this, no BSOD or on-screen error messages.
Tried press and release of power button - nothing happens. Had to press and hold power button to reboot.
Screenshots from Open Hardware Monitor showing temps:
All 4 CPU cores running below max temp. Not sure what the deal with Fan #1 is. GPU core running 52.0*C vs 52.5*C max and GPU fan running at max speed. Maybe that's the source of the problem?
All 4 CPU cores running below max temp. Not sure what the deal with Fan #1 is. GPU core running 52.0*C vs 52.5*C max and GPU fan running at max speed. Maybe that's the source of the problem?
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"more slowly than usual" may be Thermal Throttling (Also a dying HD), but seems not very plausible if the only thing you were doing was opening an application - that's far from Full Load. Download CoreTemp, and keep it open to check temperatures. You may want to download an stress test application like OCCT or Prime95 and run it for two hours or so (The more the better, but just to make sure). Start discarding parts that seems fine, Processor is the easiest.
For the HD you have to do some surface scan test. You may do that with HD Tune if I recall correctly. Also check what the brand and model of the HD are, and look around for manufacturer tools to check it.
For the HD you have to do some surface scan test. You may do that with HD Tune if I recall correctly. Also check what the brand and model of the HD are, and look around for manufacturer tools to check it.
Screenshots from Open Hardware Monitor showing temps:
All 4 CPU cores running below max temp. Not sure what the deal with Fan #1 is. GPU core running 52.0*C vs 52.5*C max and GPU fan running at max speed. Maybe that's the source of the problem?
"Max" on that screen means the maximum observed value, not the maximum safe value. 52C is quite cool. Of course, that doesn't necessarily correlate to the temps when the system locked up unless the program was running at the time.
I agree with zir on this one, based on your symptoms, you could be throttling or the HDD might be dying. Leave that monitoring program open at all times and try to quickly switch to it when the problem happens. Take note of all the values.
It looks like you have a Seagate hard drive, so definitely also download SeaTools and run them.
The key symptom was slow load up after hibernation. On a 1Tb 2.5 inch Hd, your asking for very sensitive reads on the disk. 2.5 inch HD's are cheap these days and so is the trial version of Windows 7/8. Swapping it out with a clean install is the best way to narrow down the problem to hardware/software.
For more specific help, download Glary's utilities (www.ninite.com) and give us the system specs, and the hard drive serial number if possible.
For more specific help, download Glary's utilities (www.ninite.com) and give us the system specs, and the hard drive serial number if possible.
Yep, you're right about what "Max" means.
Tonight, I was experiencing the usual slow responsiveness that usually precedes the lockup I've described in this thread. I closed a bunch of Google Chrome tabs, and responsiveness improved and lockup was avoided.
I had Hardware Monitor running the entire time, and just checked the max values:
CPU cores: 53*C (2 were at 53*, 1 at 52* and another at 51*)
GPU core: 54*C
HDD temp: 35*C
Only other temp showing in Hardware Monitor was for ITE IT8772E (?) and that has a max value of 49*C.
So it seems overheating is not the issue, correct?
Ran Seagates's SeaTools SMART Check and the Short Drive Self Test. No problems. I guess I should run the generic long test?
Sounds like thrashing pagefile to me, so more ram might help... But it shouldn't freeze once you're in (process timeout?).
Restart from hibernation is slow because you are literally reading your whole ram, ~6GB, from your hdd (and freezes: it could be unpossible to populate when virtual mem in use > physical). Standby might be having similar issues with full ram & pagefile use.. maybe.
Probs a software fix (change browser or find software with memory hole [unlikely]?). Or change habits (less interwebs open), or try just throwing more ram at it..
Restart from hibernation is slow because you are literally reading your whole ram, ~6GB, from your hdd (and freezes: it could be unpossible to populate when virtual mem in use > physical). Standby might be having similar issues with full ram & pagefile use.. maybe.
Probs a software fix (change browser or find software with memory hole [unlikely]?). Or change habits (less interwebs open), or try just throwing more ram at it..
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OK, you're definitely not overheating. Go ahead and try the long test on the drive, but I doubt it's a problem if no indicators are failing.
Definitely agree with Rich that the next most likely cause is pagefile thrashing. Keep your Task Manager open to the Performance tab and watch the physical memory usage history.
Definitely agree with Rich that the next most likely cause is pagefile thrashing. Keep your Task Manager open to the Performance tab and watch the physical memory usage history.
I'm guessing the software at issue is Google Chrome since closing a bunch of Chrome tabs once the desktop's responsiveness started slowing down and it was showing signs of an impending lockup averted said lockup.
Though I suppose we should see lots of people having this issue on Windows 7 with Chrome.
Ran the Seagate generic long test - passed with no problems, so I guess we can rule out the HDD as well.
OK, I'll start monitoring the Performance tab of Task Mgr.
And thanks! I appreciate you guys sticking with this thread as we try to ID the issue and resolve it.
Ketchup
Elite Member
- Sep 1, 2002
- 14,559
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Hello Luger, when you used Seatools, did did you run the Windows version or the DOS version?
Looking forward to seeing what the memory usage is like when the computer slows to a crawl.
Also, have you ever done a fresh Windows install on this computer since you bought it?
And sorry if I missed it, but did you ever run a virus/spyware/malware scan? If so, what did you scan it with?
When you were talking about tabs in Chrome, how many tabs did you have open/have to close? With a lot of tabs open, Chrome can turn into quite the memory hog, especially with a lot of add-ons.
Looking forward to seeing what the memory usage is like when the computer slows to a crawl.
Also, have you ever done a fresh Windows install on this computer since you bought it?
And sorry if I missed it, but did you ever run a virus/spyware/malware scan? If so, what did you scan it with?
When you were talking about tabs in Chrome, how many tabs did you have open/have to close? With a lot of tabs open, Chrome can turn into quite the memory hog, especially with a lot of add-ons.
That really indicates to me that you're paging. Google Chrome is a notorious RAM hog because of its one process per tab model.
I have, but to be honest, I had no idea what I was looking at or what to look for.
Windows.
Yeah, I'm monitoring that now with Task Manager.
Yes, I have. It's been a while though. I plan on going back to an OS image I made shortly after the fresh install (an image made after installing some basic apps). Might even use that as an opportunity to put the OS image on a SSD, and use the entire current HDD as a data drive.
Avast; no issues on scan.
I usually run anywhere from 30 to 40 tabs total, within maybe 10 Chrome windows. I closed ~10 tabs to get responsiveness to improve from the lagging state that precedes the lockups I've described in this thread.
Yep, I've got 29 chrome.exe processes running right now.
So if the problem is Chrome, what's the solution, besides changing browsers - which I'd rather not do b/c of Tabs Outliner, which is only available on Chrome, and which, after using, I cannot be without!
More physical memory?
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Got a recommendation?
Before I got this desktop with Windows 7, I used to have a laptop running XP, and I used Firefox on that. I used to run even more tabs on that, and FF used to crash pretty regularly, though to its credit, it never took down the entire system. At the time I switched computers, I also discovered Tabs Outliner which has been awesome for tab management.
Yep, I've got 29 chrome.exe processes running right now.
So if the problem is Chrome, what's the solution, besides changing browsers - which I'd rather not do b/c of Tabs Outliner, which is only available on Chrome, and which, after using, I cannot be without!
More physical memory?
Tabs Outliner has the capability to unload tabs from memory while keeping them in the outliner, in fact this is kind of the point if the extension. So I'd say to try to keep a smaller working set of tabs loaded in memory.
If you absolutely must use Chrome and keep more tabs active in memory, then yes you need more memory.
Yes, Firefox does have many tab manager style extensions. Unfortunately, I cannot find any that replicate what Tabs Outliner does: let me easily see a list of all tabs - both open (loaded) and closed (unloaded), and organize all those tabs by groups, and let me unload a tab with a click without having to find each tab in the browser.
Any many of these FF tab managers are no longer being developed, so no chance of new feature sets as the developer has moved on.
Yeah, I need to be more diligent about this if I am going to continue using Tabs Outliner. I do use TO to unload tabs - the ~30 tabs I have open are probably only 10% of the tabs contained in TO.
I think I'm going to stick with Chrome. Once we figured out my lockup issue is Chrome related, I installed the latest version of Firefox, and even with 3 tabs, FF seems more sluggish than Chrome with 30 tabs.
Plus I just learned a bit more about Chrome and its multiple processes: Why do I see multiple chrome.exe processes in the Task Manager?
Chrome has its own process manager (who knew? lol), so it gives me a way to kill off the most resource hogging Chrome processes when I detect a lockup coming on. The saving grace of these lockups is their gradual nature - the slowing responsiveness acts as a warning, giving me time to unload tabs, and kill processes.
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honestly i think its hibernation. Its hit or miss with all my coworkers on new to 2 year old thinkpads. Add in the element of docking and the problems get more confusing.
Just shut down if you don't use it for several hours. The few minutes you save is worth not dealing with those hassles.
Just shut down if you don't use it for several hours. The few minutes you save is worth not dealing with those hassles.
I think hibernation is a separate problem from the lockups as I can induce the lockups even without ever hibernating the machine.
Yeah, I need to be more diligent about this if I am going to continue using Tabs Outliner. I do use TO to unload tabs - the ~30 tabs I have open are probably only 10% of the tabs contained in TO.
I think I'm going to stick with Chrome. Once we figured out my lockup issue is Chrome related, I installed the latest version of Firefox, and even with 3 tabs, FF seems more sluggish than Chrome with 30 tabs.
Plus I just learned a bit more about Chrome and its multiple processes: Why do I see multiple chrome.exe processes in the Task Manager?
Chrome has its own process manager (who knew? lol), so it gives me a way to kill off the most resource hogging Chrome processes when I detect a lockup coming on. The saving grace of these lockups is their gradual nature - the slowing responsiveness acts as a warning, giving me time to unload tabs, and kill processes.
Basically, you're using more memory than the computer physical has, so the OS is swapping (paging) memory out to disk to make room. Disk is obviously much slower than memory and any time the OS wants to access memory that is really sitting on disk, it can take 100x longer to read it. Hence the "lockup". The computer is actually still working, just really really slowly.
You can see this happen by watching the memory graph in the Task Manager.
Side note: it's amazing that HDD's have gotten so quiet that swapping isn't immediately obvious by the loud grinding sound coming from the HDD.
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