Win RT (WOA/Win8) and Android - dual-boot and happy?

[destrekor]

So, this is something I've been considering for awhile (ahead of a tablet purchase), and thus I've been following the news as Microsoft provides small details about Windows on ARM (WOA).

Yesterday, I think, they officially announced that OS will be called WinRT (yes, just like Windows Runtime, which is the backbone for it/Metro), and will NOT be available through retail channels. Granted, it was rumored for awhile that it would only be able pre-installed.

If I have a goal of dual-booting Android alongside, er, WinRT, am I basically limited to waiting to purchase a WinRT tablet, and then "hacking" Android onto it? Is this something you think some of the development community will be able to figure out? It sounds like device and boot-environment encryption is all-but-guaranteed, and iirc, a secure EFI is necessary to even be granted permission to include WinRT onboard. So... where does that leave the whole concept of dual-booting?
I can imagine going the other route, buying an Android tablet and hacking WinRT onto it, will probably be either a) more difficult, or b) almost impossible... with fewer devs even making the effort.

Should I basically abandon this concept now, or does anyone think it will be possible?

 

[vshah]

nothing to do but wait and see. i wouldn't buy a device for this purpose until the functionality was available.

 

[Jodell88]

If secure EFI is needed to boot Android then you'll be waiting for a long time as Linux isn't ready as yet.

 

[notposting]

Buy an x86 W8 tablet and put Android x86 on it.

Sounds like what you want will be practically impossible (like even if it worked somehow driver support would be non existent, etc).

 

[poofyhairguy]

I think the Touchpad shows the route will be buy a Windows tablet then hack Android to it.

Unless you are an MS Office junkie who can't give up Android I don't see the point. The ARM version of Windows will lack what makes Windows so useful sans Office. And the hacked on version of Android will have issues due to the lack of drivers for the hardware.

Seems like a lose-lose to me.

 

[vshah]

I think the Touchpad shows the route will be buy a Windows tablet then hack Android to it.

Unless you are an MS Office junkie who can't give up Android I don't see the point. The ARM version of Windows will lack what makes Windows so useful sans Office. And the hacked on version of Android will have issues due to the lack of drivers for the hardware.

Seems like a lose-lose to me.

WinRT will have office:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...ndows-for-the-arm-processor-architecture.aspx

WOA includes desktop versions of the new Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote. These new Office applications, codenamed “Office 15”, have been significantly architected for both touch and minimized power/resource consumption, while also being fully-featured for consumers and providing complete document compatibility. WOA supports the Windows desktop experience including File Explorer, Internet Explorer 10 for the desktop, and most other intrinsic Windows desktop features—which have been significantly architected for both touch and minimized power/resource consumption.

 

[poofyhairguy]

WinRT will have office:

Sorry, my post must have been confusing. Basically I was trying to say the only thing WinRT will have is Office, since the decades of Win32 apps won't work.

Day 1 Android will have more apps than WinRT will, and that might always be the case.

 

[Dominato3r]

9hrs on an intel processor? If this is remotely true there seems to be no reason for an ARM Win8 Tablet

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/04/intel-windows-8-tablet-specs/

Windows 8 tablets will be available in 10- and 11-inch designs, with an anticipated nine-plus hours of battery life and 3G/4G connectivity. Other than the fact that the 11-inchers will be hybrids with a physical keyboard, the specs aren’t too surprising.

The tablets should weigh less than 1.5 pounds, similar to the third-generation iPad’s 1.44 pounds than the heftier Toshiba Excite‘s 2.2 pounds (granted, the Excite is also 13 inches). They’ll also be ultra thin, around .35 inches.

These Windows 8 tablets will also include Intel’s dual-core Atom Z2760 “Clover Trail” chipset. It features a “burst mode” that can be used for occasional small boosts of performance, and hyperthreading, which lets it function like a quad-core chip in certain circumstances. They will also include NFC and WiFi Direct.

 

[arod]

9hrs on an intel processor? If this is remotely true there seems to be no reason for an ARM Win8 Tablet

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/04/intel-windows-8-tablet-specs/

Price will likely be a huge factor (esp with the added cost of office being included).... also you could make the case that arm devices will not have fans/vents..... we won't know that for the intel stuff until closer to launch.

Then there is also the likely nokia tablet which could be the hero tablet for windows 8.

Alot of this will depend on how many metro apps are in the store on launch day.... if most of the apps you need are there I could see the best selling windows 8 devices all being arm (because it includes office as well)

 

[Knavish]

If secure EFI is needed to boot Android then you'll be waiting for a long time as Linux isn't ready as yet.

This statement is not accurate. It's not about linux being "ready" -- the implementation is not hard at all. The problem is the digital key signing requirement. To load linux (android) on a secure EFI device, you would need the kernel to be signed with a key that matches a key saved in the device's hardware. These keys (somewhat like the encryption keys on Blueray disks) are easily managed by a company like Microsoft, but are very difficult to support in an open source community. Giving an open key to the linux community to allow Android on a secure EFI device also gives the key to the hacker community to defeat secure EFI.

So far, PCs and notebooks that will use secure EFI have a hardware switch to disable the security check. Unfortunately Microsoft has banned this hardware switch from Windows8 ARM tablets. This locks the tablets exactly the same way as iphones, locked androids, and the ipad.

 

[destrekor]

This statement is not accurate. It's not about linux being "ready" -- the implementation is not hard at all. The problem is the digital key signing requirement. To load linux (android) on a secure EFI device, you would need the kernel to be signed with a key that matches a key saved in the device's hardware. These keys (somewhat like the encryption keys on Blueray disks) are easily managed by a company like Microsoft, but are very difficult to support in an open source community. Giving an open key to the linux community to allow Android on a secure EFI device also gives the key to the hacker community to defeat secure EFI.

So far, PCs and notebooks that will use secure EFI have a hardware switch to disable the security check. Unfortunately Microsoft has banned this hardware switch from Windows8 ARM tablets. This locks the tablets exactly the same way as iphones, locked androids, and the ipad.

Seeing as someone seems to understand the mechanics behind this (all of that I have read as well), do you imagine this would even be possible?
Or would there be a better chance of seeing WinRT hacked onto (somewhat illegally, I guess) onto an Android tablet?

If Microsoft refuses to cooperate like this, for a tablet, I'd have no qualms of saying "screw you, then."
I can almost imagine some of the ARM tablets will share exactly the same hardware as Android models (manufacturers will just change the OS and perhaps some of the physical materials), especially from players like Samsung and ASUS if they get involved with WinRT tablets. And I know from my Omnia days that the dev community was willing to do something along those lines.

Without an unlock capability, just like with Apple, it's probably easier to fake the security for non-approved hardware, than crack the security of official hardware.

 

[Jodell88]

This statement is not accurate. It's not about linux being "ready" -- the implementation is not hard at all. The problem is the digital key signing requirement. To load linux (android) on a secure EFI device, you would need the kernel to be signed with a key that matches a key saved in the device's hardware. These keys (somewhat like the encryption keys on Blueray disks) are easily managed by a company like Microsoft, but are very difficult to support in an open source community. Giving an open key to the linux community to allow Android on a secure EFI device also gives the key to the hacker community to defeat secure EFI.

So far, PCs and notebooks that will use secure EFI have a hardware switch to disable the security check. Unfortunately Microsoft has banned this hardware switch from Windows8 ARM tablets. This locks the tablets exactly the same way as iphones, locked androids, and the ipad.

Can Linux currently boot using secure EFI? The answer is currently no. That's why I said it isn't ready.

In addition to the great points you've brought up, another is the fact that out of tree kernel modules would not work because of the signed kernel. This means that proprietary drivers would not be able to function.

The problem with Secure EFI in Linux is a matter of logistics and not implementation.

Some links for whoever wants to look more into it.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTA0Nzg
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTA0NDQ
http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/9844.html