willing ignorance about illegal immigration

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: JacobJ
just a quick note before I leave

It seems that there is a lot of ignorance about illegal immigration -- but what is interesting is it almost seems like a willing ignorance. People seem blind to proven facts, even while claiming facts without supporting them. This, really is irrational.

Can you say hypocracy? Why don't you put forth some facts to show that illegals are good for the American middle class?

The problem is that, given a broader context of knowledge about the American economy and society, mass immigration of deeply impoverished people--legal or illegal, does not make sense. The U.S. already has tens of millions of impoverished people that it should focus on helping and employing, first. Secondly, the illegals cost more than what they are worth in terms of invisible and often overlooked and purposely ignored back-end costs, such as: The cost of health care for illegals, the costs of education for the children of illegals, the criminal justice costs, and environmental costs and population costs (more people = more crowding = higher costs for land = higher costs for natural resources).

Perhaps you can make some economic arguments to explain how importing tens of millions of impoverished people when the nation is already hemmoraging jobs to other countries makes economic sense? Yes, I know that the front-end costs for the food is cheaper, but the invisible back-end costs (higher taxes, fewer and lower quailty of government services, etc.) outweigh them.

No, of course he can't make an economic argument FOR illegals. Why? He would lose every time, just like every other bleeding Lib who spouts the same drivel that they benefit our society. Ok, HOW? And where is the PROOF?

Look around you, all this is becasue of immigration. (and slave labor)

Hmm - since you obviously are making your case for free immigration, are you making a case for slave labor? Why else would you mention it?

*cough*hack*cough*

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee


Hmm - since you obviously are making your case for free immigration, are you making a case for slave labor? Why else would you mention it?

*cough*hack*cough*

Becasue cheap slave labor is why it was tolerated by our government,

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: fitzov
What facts are people who are against illegal immigration blind to? I'm curious.

That head of lettuce at the supermarket will instantly shoot up to $50 if they're not allowed to stay in the country.

(of course that head of lettuce will either rot on the farm or in the supermarket's dumpster as nobody in their right mind will actually pay $50 for it, no matter what the people pro-illegal people will claim)

 

[jlbenedict]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: fitzov
What facts are people who are against illegal immigration blind to? I'm curious.

That head of lettuce at the supermarket will instantly shoot up to $50 if they're not allowed to stay in the country.

(of course that head of lettuce will either rot on the farm or in the supermarket's dumpster as nobody in their right mind will actually pay $50 for it, no matter what the people pro-illegal people will claim)

Yeah right

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: JacobJ
just a quick note before I leave

It seems that there is a lot of ignorance about illegal immigration -- but what is interesting is it almost seems like a willing ignorance. People seem blind to proven facts, even while claiming facts without supporting them. This, really is irrational.

Can you say hypocracy? Why don't you put forth some facts to show that illegals are good for the American middle class?

The problem is that, given a broader context of knowledge about the American economy and society, mass immigration of deeply impoverished people--legal or illegal, does not make sense. The U.S. already has tens of millions of impoverished people that it should focus on helping and employing, first. Secondly, the illegals cost more than what they are worth in terms of invisible and often overlooked and purposely ignored back-end costs, such as: The cost of health care for illegals, the costs of education for the children of illegals, the criminal justice costs, and environmental costs and population costs (more people = more crowding = higher costs for land = higher costs for natural resources).

Perhaps you can make some economic arguments to explain how importing tens of millions of impoverished people when the nation is already hemmoraging jobs to other countries makes economic sense? Yes, I know that the front-end costs for the food is cheaper, but the invisible back-end costs (higher taxes, fewer and lower quailty of government services, etc.) outweigh them.

No, of course he can't make an economic argument FOR illegals. Why? He would lose every time, just like every other bleeding Lib who spouts the same drivel that they benefit our society. Ok, HOW? And where is the PROOF?

Look around you, all this is becasue of immigration. (and slave labor)

If you cant see how wrong you are you are closing your eyes on purpose.

The burden of proof is on YOU, we have grown and prospered with immigration, you saying immigration would hurt us is in no way based in fact except for mentioned in other threads propaganda from anti-latino hate groups.

Our schools and hospitals and welfare systems have grown and prospered??

 

[jlbenedict]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: JacobJ
just a quick note before I leave

It seems that there is a lot of ignorance about illegal immigration -- but what is interesting is it almost seems like a willing ignorance. People seem blind to proven facts, even while claiming facts without supporting them. This, really is irrational.

Can you say hypocracy? Why don't you put forth some facts to show that illegals are good for the American middle class?

The problem is that, given a broader context of knowledge about the American economy and society, mass immigration of deeply impoverished people--legal or illegal, does not make sense. The U.S. already has tens of millions of impoverished people that it should focus on helping and employing, first. Secondly, the illegals cost more than what they are worth in terms of invisible and often overlooked and purposely ignored back-end costs, such as: The cost of health care for illegals, the costs of education for the children of illegals, the criminal justice costs, and environmental costs and population costs (more people = more crowding = higher costs for land = higher costs for natural resources).

Perhaps you can make some economic arguments to explain how importing tens of millions of impoverished people when the nation is already hemmoraging jobs to other countries makes economic sense? Yes, I know that the front-end costs for the food is cheaper, but the invisible back-end costs (higher taxes, fewer and lower quailty of government services, etc.) outweigh them.

No, of course he can't make an economic argument FOR illegals. Why? He would lose every time, just like every other bleeding Lib who spouts the same drivel that they benefit our society. Ok, HOW? And where is the PROOF?

Look around you, all this is becasue of immigration. (and slave labor)

If you cant see how wrong you are you are closing your eyes on purpose.

The burden of proof is on YOU, we have grown and prospered with immigration, you saying immigration would hurt us is in no way based in fact except for mentioned in other threads propaganda from anti-latino hate groups.

Our schools and hospitals and welfare systems have grown and prospered??

Thats just illegals way of candy-coated it, to make it appear they deserve to be here and have rights

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: jlbenedict

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: JacobJ
just a quick note before I leave

It seems that there is a lot of ignorance about illegal immigration -- but what is interesting is it almost seems like a willing ignorance. People seem blind to proven facts, even while claiming facts without supporting them. This, really is irrational.

Can you say hypocracy? Why don't you put forth some facts to show that illegals are good for the American middle class?

The problem is that, given a broader context of knowledge about the American economy and society, mass immigration of deeply impoverished people--legal or illegal, does not make sense. The U.S. already has tens of millions of impoverished people that it should focus on helping and employing, first. Secondly, the illegals cost more than what they are worth in terms of invisible and often overlooked and purposely ignored back-end costs, such as: The cost of health care for illegals, the costs of education for the children of illegals, the criminal justice costs, and environmental costs and population costs (more people = more crowding = higher costs for land = higher costs for natural resources).

Perhaps you can make some economic arguments to explain how importing tens of millions of impoverished people when the nation is already hemmoraging jobs to other countries makes economic sense? Yes, I know that the front-end costs for the food is cheaper, but the invisible back-end costs (higher taxes, fewer and lower quailty of government services, etc.) outweigh them.

No, of course he can't make an economic argument FOR illegals. Why? He would lose every time, just like every other bleeding Lib who spouts the same drivel that they benefit our society. Ok, HOW? And where is the PROOF?

Look around you, all this is becasue of immigration. (and slave labor)

If you cant see how wrong you are you are closing your eyes on purpose.

The burden of proof is on YOU, we have grown and prospered with immigration, you saying immigration would hurt us is in no way based in fact except for mentioned in other threads propaganda from anti-latino hate groups.

Our schools and hospitals and welfare systems have grown and prospered??

Thats just illegals way of candy-coated it, to make it appear they deserve to be here and have rights

They are lowering the overall wages.. *making the rich richer.. because the rich are the ones who hire people
They lower the overall educational experience for legal english speaking children because the classes are slowed down and forced to bring the non-english speaking students up to speed..
They produce more babies than many of the legal citizens and exhaust the goodwill of the local charities and pre-natal care units of hospitals etc..

^^^^^^^ BTW, the illegal supporter(s) will call me racist for even using the words "english speaking" ... To them.. the english language is the root of all evil and racism in the world today.

 

[fitzov]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: fitzov
What facts are people who are against illegal immigration blind to? I'm curious.

That head of lettuce at the supermarket will instantly shoot up to $50 if they're not allowed to stay in the country.

(of course that head of lettuce will either rot on the farm or in the supermarket's dumpster as nobody in their right mind will actually pay $50 for it, no matter what the people pro-illegal people will claim)

I guess I won't be buying lettuce.

 

[CessnaFlyer]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: fitzov
What facts are people who are against illegal immigration blind to? I'm curious.

That head of lettuce at the supermarket will instantly shoot up to $50 if they're not allowed to stay in the country.

(of course that head of lettuce will either rot on the farm or in the supermarket's dumpster as nobody in their right mind will actually pay $50 for it, no matter what the people pro-illegal people will claim)

I would be willing to pick lettuce for only $25 a head!

 

[blahblah99]

Originally posted by: phantom309

Originally posted by: blahblah99

Originally posted by: phantom309
The proven fact is that they came to this country illegally and they do not belong here.

A proven fact is that politicians are hypocrites. Take a look at Pete wilson.

Do you disagree with my statement or not?

It's true, but I don't support it based on the proven fact I stated above. Americans are hypocrites when it comes to illegal immigration issues. They want to reap the benefits without paying the price. Period. Proof of this is outsourcing. If laws were changed to make it impossible for illegals to receive benefits, the hypocrites would get what they want - cheap labor, low priced goods and services, and public welfare allocated only for legalized citizens.

The issue of illegal immigrants have been going on for decades, so why is it such a big issue now? Because they want to divert attention away from the bigger problems.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: catnap1972
That head of lettuce at the supermarket will instantly shoot up to $50 if they're not allowed to stay in the country.

Care to explain how you came up with that figure?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: JacobJ
just a quick note before I leave

Where are you going and how soon?

 

[CessnaFlyer]

They want to reap the benefits

There are NO benefit's!

 

[jrenz]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Look around you, all this is becasue of immigration. (and slave labor)

If you cant see how wrong you are you are closing your eyes on purpose.

The burden of proof is on YOU, we have grown and prospered with immigration, you saying immigration would hurt us is in no way based in fact except for mentioned in other threads propaganda from anti-latino hate groups.

You compare the immigration of today with that of 100+ years ago and see no difference?

Seems more to me that your argument is based on a flawed idea, thus the burden of proof is on you.

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: catnap1972
That head of lettuce at the supermarket will instantly shoot up to $50 if they're not allowed to stay in the country.

Care to explain how you came up with that figure?

That's the figure the pro-illegal people have been throwing around elsewhere (as well as $10 for a bag of salad).

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: CessnaFlyer

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: fitzov
What facts are people who are against illegal immigration blind to? I'm curious.

That head of lettuce at the supermarket will instantly shoot up to $50 if they're not allowed to stay in the country.

(of course that head of lettuce will either rot on the farm or in the supermarket's dumpster as nobody in their right mind will actually pay $50 for it, no matter what the people pro-illegal people will claim)

I would be willing to pick lettuce for only $25 a head!

Call McCain!

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: catnap1972
That head of lettuce at the supermarket will instantly shoot up to $50 if they're not allowed to stay in the country.

Care to explain how you came up with that figure?

That's the figure the pro-illegal people have been throwing around elsewhere (as well as $10 for a bag of salad).

And how did they come up with that number?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: dahunan

^^^^^^^ BTW, the illegal supporter(s) will call me racist for even using the words "english speaking" ... To them.. the english language is the root of all evil and racism in the world today.

That is BS I am about the only one taking the side of so many who wouldnt bother with you people and you are pulling this out of your ass.

And if a public service is exausted why not look at what is wrong with the system, oh yeah, becasue hospitals should only be used for american babies, how dare they breed their children on our soil, you show your true colors more and more.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: dahunan

^^^^^^^ BTW, the illegal supporter(s) will call me racist for even using the words "english speaking" ... To them.. the english language is the root of all evil and racism in the world today.

That is BS I am about the only one taking the side of so many who wouldnt bother with you people and you are pulling this out of your ass.

And if a public service is exausted why not look at what is wrong with the system

Ok. . .here's what's wrong with the system. How can you plan and allocate funds properly for a group of 12 million people (roughly by latest figures I heard) who aren't technically there? You have to go on what you know when coming up with the budgets for public services. You have to know how many people you're talking about. To do that you have to go with your immigration documentation and your census counts. But these people are not counted. They don't WANT to be counted. They want to hide and blend in and be anonymous so they don't risk getting deported. So they don't get counted. But they still want to benefit from the public services that are paid for by taxpayers. And more and more come every single day. So that creates a strain on public systems. . .you see? It's very simple. It's not like its a couple thousand illegals we're talking about. That wouldn't be an issue so much. It's now that it's reaching a critical mass and people are starting to notice the strain all these MILLIONS of illegals are causing. America CANNOT ABSORB ALL THE HUNGER AND POVERTY IN THE WHOLE WORLD!! If we tried, we would be no better off. We just can't take everyone. I'm sorry. But it's a fact. Illegal aliens come to this country to exploit it, not to embrace it. If they were really so gung-ho about really becoming American's they'd go through the proper channels like regular law-abiding citizens. We don't need more criminals. We already have enough of our own. And unfortunately a lot of them, the ones who have been allowing this to go on for so long, are holding some of the highest public offices in the nation.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: catnap1972
That head of lettuce at the supermarket will instantly shoot up to $50 if they're not allowed to stay in the country.

Care to explain how you came up with that figure?

That's the figure the pro-illegal people have been throwing around elsewhere (as well as $10 for a bag of salad).

And how did they come up with that number?

Those high prices are BS that the pro-illegal imigation folks are throwing around to scare peeps.

Cost accounting analyses have been done on the amount of labor costs in the final costs of produce. These analyses show that the cost of labor is a very, very small part of the retail cost/price. Labor rates could rise dramtically and there would only be a very very small increase to consumers.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
......becasue hospitals should only be used for american babies, how dare they breed their children on our soil, you show your true colors more and more.

Have you ever had any children?

Well I have, and it's d@mned expensive!

I had to pay for mine, why do we have to pay for theirs?

Let's face it, they are taking advantage of "free services" which they don't, IMHO, deserve. You wanna have a baby? Fine, just pay for it yourself.

It's time we stopped being Mexico's free welfare provider. We have our own needs to meet - our poorer folks to help. They are being given the short end of the stick in this deal

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: dahunan

^^^^^^^ BTW, the illegal supporter(s) will call me racist for even using the words "english speaking" ... To them.. the english language is the root of all evil and racism in the world today.

That is BS I am about the only one taking the side of so many who wouldnt bother with you people and you are pulling this out of your ass.

And if a public service is exausted why not look at what is wrong with the system, oh yeah, becasue hospitals should only be used for american babies, how dare they breed their children on our soil, you show your true colors more and more.

Are you going to foot the 14 million dollar bill for the hospital in the other thread? This has nothing to do with nationality, it has to do with money. Illegals can't afford the medical care they receive, this is a fact. They are stealing medical care because they can't pay for a product. Like I've said before, this is part of the reason why healthcare premiums that come out of my wallet are rising. 30%-40% across the board last year, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for someone else's kids, let alone 12 million.

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: spacejamz

Look around you, all this is becasue of immigration. (and slave labor)

If you cant see how wrong you are you are closing your eyes on purpose.

The burden of proof is on YOU, we have grown and prospered with immigration, you saying immigration would hurt us is in no way based in fact except for mentioned in other threads propaganda from anti-latino hate groups.

Those immigrants from the 1700's and 1800's that help build this country up did not not come here illegally by sneaking across the border...they came from overseas (are these the immigrants you are referring to???). Pretty sure the immigration laws have changed drastically since then, but the laws of TODAY spell out what constitutes legal vs illegal. Sneaking across the border is illegal.

Maybe we should treat the illegals who get caught on this side of the border the same way that a US Citizen would get treated if they caught sneaking into Mexico and landed in a Mexican prison. How do you say 'Due Process' in Spanish?

So how does some law make any difference as far as contribution to building our country?

If law is the law then why are so many americans living on native american land against broken treatys with the native americans?

Is it becasue might makes right? Well too bad then, they made it in without getting shot so they should get citzenship? Sound fair? By your logic this is what your saying.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

The burden of proof is on YOU, we have grown and prospered with immigration, you saying immigration would hurt us is in no way based in fact except for mentioned in other threads propaganda from anti-latino hate groups.

However, today's situation is significantly different. The landmass has been filled and the environment has been stressed. The job market is no long expanding, but rather, jobs are being shipped overseas and foreigners are being imported on foreign work visas (H-1B, L-1), resulting in large amounts of unemployment and underemployment.

It would be a different story if our economy and our middle class were exploding and expanding rapidly and if we didn't already have a population of 300 million people.

In deciding this issue, the criteria should be:

Is more immigration in the rational selfish interest of the American people? Is the immigration of a specific person in the rational selfish interest of the American people? Would it be good for the nation's middle class?

If the answer is yes, well then OK. If the benefits would outweigh the costs, if the result would be an increase in the percentage of Americans who were middle class and a decrease of the percentage of those in poverty and if the benefits outweighed the environmental costs, well then OK.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

That head of lettuce at the supermarket will instantly shoot up to $50 if they're not allowed to stay in the country.

(of course that head of lettuce will either rot on the farm or in the supermarket's dumpster as nobody in their right mind will actually pay $50 for it, no matter what the people pro-illegal people will claim)

What if your taxes decreased significantly and the economy began to prosper?

What you are missing is that the head of lettuce that you buy at the supermarket for $0.99 is already MORE expensive than the $0.99. You are missing all of the back-end costs of having the illegals in the country. The price of the lettuce is thus not merely $0.99, but rather, you need to add the cost of the tax dollars that go to provide health care for illegals, education for the children of illegals, the social/personal costs of crimes committed by illegals, the criminal justice costs for dealing with those crimes, and any environmental/population costs.

In the end, your head of lettuce is much more expensive than what you pay on the front-end. However, those back-end costs are not itemized for you. Rather, you pay for them in the form of higher taxes, fewer or worse government services, loss of formerly middle class and lower middle class jobs (like construction and meat packing), fewer opportunities for the nation's tens of millions of poor, and the personal costs meted out on unfortunate individuals of crimes committed by the illegals (rapes, murders, robberies, gang violence, etc.).

I think it would make more sense to pay more for lettuce on the front-end and less on the back-end. It would make more sense to find a way to employ the tens of millions of impoverished Americans that we already have in this country.

The math is like this: Pay more for food/construction on the front-end but on the back-end, instead of paying for the education and health care of a (1) illegal's family and (2) an impoverished American family, you just pay for the education and health care for a less-impoverished American family (and not the illegal's family).