William Calley, At Long Last

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: BoomerD
It doesn't take much research on the Phoenix Program (or Phoenix Project) to see what was going on...and a bit of "reading between the lines" to see how entire villages were massacred, just like My Lai.

Actually, the Phoenix Program was FAR more targeted and "surgical." It focused on capturing/killing the VC leadership/infrastructure and was the antithesis of regular unit, large scale, indiscriminate village massacre reprisals.

It also had it's problems. Trust me on this.

I agree that was it's original design...but in practice, it often went in different directions...and was about as surgical as a dull axe.

I know I'm not the only Vietnam Vet on these boards. Many of us had similar experiences, while some were more involved in....other aspects of the war.

My only real recurring nightmare about the war involves such a "surgical strike" gone way wrong...even though it's been 37 years ago, it still causes me to jump out of bed, wringing in sweat and heart thumping...fortunately, as time goes by, it's gone from a few times per week to a couple times per month...

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I agree that was it's original design...but in practice, it often went in different directions...and was about as surgical as a dull axe.

Yeah, like I alluded to, it had it's "problems." Even the best planned, supposedly single-target and most "surgical" operations often had "collateral damage" like anyone else sleeping the hut, ie, the guy's entire family.

Not to mention that you were relying on intel that could have come from a local official simply fingering a non-VC he didn't like.

And, yeah, the nightmares diminish slowly over time but never really go away. I wish all the big, manly poser boys here with their gun lust certainty had the first fucking clue of the life-long, soul-deep ramifications of what they strut around about.

Ugh. This is depressing and I'm done here.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: marvdmartian

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
The soviet union won WW2 so I don't see how our media could have influenced it in any way. Also no soldier is deserving of praise for being a part of what our armed forces do.

You mean, like defending your freedom to say moronic crap like that?? :roll:

i believe lawyers defend his right to free speach, not the military.

Ever heard of the Khmer Rouge? They killed quite a few lawyers, teachers, and other people who did not have protection of a military.

 

[ZeGermans]

Originally posted by: marvdmartian

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
The soviet union won WW2 so I don't see how our media could have influenced it in any way. Also no soldier is deserving of praise for being a part of what our armed forces do.

You mean, like defending your freedom to say moronic crap like that?? :roll:

The last time our military "defended my freedom to say moronic crap" was 1812.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: ZeGermans

Originally posted by: marvdmartian

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
The soviet union won WW2 so I don't see how our media could have influenced it in any way. Also no soldier is deserving of praise for being a part of what our armed forces do.

You mean, like defending your freedom to say moronic crap like that?? :roll:

The last time our military "defended my freedom to say moronic crap" was 1812.

If we had no military for the last 100 years, I can assure you that we would not have a country. The fact that you show such blatant disrespect for our military speaks volumes to your character. If you hate our country so much, please, go somewhere else. I hear Kenya is nice.


If you don't agree with what our military does, that is one thing. To demean those serving, simply because they are following orders, well that's just an asshat thing to do. I would expect nothing less from you though, asshat.

 

[ZeGermans]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
If we had no military for the last 100 years, I can assure you that we would not have a country. The fact that you show such blatant disrespect for our military speaks volumes to your character. If you hate our country so much, please, go somewhere else. I hear Kenya is nice.

If you don't agree with what our military does, that is one thing. To demean those serving, simply because they are following orders, well that's just an asshat thing to do. I would expect nothing less from you though, asshat.

Explain how Canada still exists. Or Sweden. Or Norway. Or basically any damn country that doesn't have a gargantuan military budget designed solely to piss people off and then kill them when they fight back. Also "just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg. Any moral soldier would desert rather than take a part in our imperialist occupations.

And I'm planning on moving to Austria, they have like three fighter planes and a small military yet they still exist?

 

[ZeGermans]

Until we as a society abandon troopsuck as acceptable we will continue being the bullies in the world.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: ZeGermans

And I'm planning on moving to Austria, they have like three fighter planes and a small military yet they still exist?

Good -- need any help packing?

 

[trenchfoot]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: BoomerD
It doesn't take much research on the Phoenix Program (or Phoenix Project) to see what was going on...and a bit of "reading between the lines" to see how entire villages were massacred, just like My Lai.

Actually, the Phoenix Program was FAR more targeted and "surgical." It focused on capturing/killing the VC leadership/infrastructure and was the antithesis of regular unit, large scale, indiscriminate village massacre reprisals.

It also had it's problems. Trust me on this.

I agree that was it's original design...but in practice, it often went in different directions...and was about as surgical as a dull axe.

I know I'm not the only Vietnam Vet on these boards. Many of us had similar experiences, while some were more involved in....other aspects of the war.

My only real recurring nightmare about the war involves such a "surgical strike" gone way wrong...even though it's been 37 years ago, it still causes me to jump out of bed, wringing in sweat and heart thumping...fortunately, as time goes by, it's gone from a few times per week to a couple times per month...

Heyy BoomerD, I feel for you man. Getting the sweats is nasty to say the least. I only had it when I was in-country. I'm a little luckier than you though. About the only problem I brought back from 'Nam is when I get this certain "look" from people that appear to be Southeast Asian that I used to get when I was there. It's like they know everything I did for all the time I was there. Wierd.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
And I'm planning on moving to Austria, they have like three fighter planes and a small military yet they still exist?

You do not need a large standing army when you have mandatory military service like Austria where much of your population is trained and basically the reserve force in case of war.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: ZeGermans

Originally posted by: marvdmartian

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
The soviet union won WW2 so I don't see how our media could have influenced it in any way. Also no soldier is deserving of praise for being a part of what our armed forces do.

You mean, like defending your freedom to say moronic crap like that?? :roll:

The last time our military "defended my freedom to say moronic crap" was 1812.

Yeah, because everyone knows WWII was just another "imperialistic occupation" for the US. :roll: Your beloved Europe was saved by the US, among others.

Seriously, I am glad you are here ZeGermans. You're living proof that whacked-out wingnuts still exist. I won't insult left-leaning people by calling you a leftist; I really have no idea what the hell you are except an America-hating buffoon. Interesting that you're here, no doubt conveniently taking advantage of our country in one way or another -- what is it, universities? Jobs?

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: Harvey
I hope it doesn't take that long for the Bushwhackos and the CIA to come clean and apologize for their current criminal forays into torture, etc.

It doesn't take long before you drop turds in a thread, does it?

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: Craig234
It's funny how the 'left's' position on these controversies seems, if they are ever solved, to have been write 90%+ of the time.

"write"? And here you are thinking of yourself as an intellectual...

BTW - do you have any evidence to support that "90%+ of the time", or is it just another fart of yours?

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: tweaker2

Heyy BoomerD, I feel for you man. Getting the sweats is nasty to say the least. I only had it when I was in-country. I'm a little luckier than you though. About the only problem I brought back from 'Nam is when I get this certain "look" from people that appear to be Southeast Asian that I used to get when I was there. It's like they know everything I did for all the time I was there. Wierd.

"the Look." yeah, but I finally just learned to ignore it...or pop off with something smart ass like ""You look familiar. Did I kill your grandfather?"

 

[canadageek]

oh FFS, all of you. cut the jingoistic bullshit and stop derailing the fucking thread.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
The soviet union won WW2 so I don't see how our media could have influenced it in any way. Also no soldier is deserving of praise for being a part of what our armed forces do.

Uh...

Of the allied military killed in WWII, the USSR had 65% of the losses, the US 2% (UK 2%, France 1%). It's fair to say the US has an underappreciation of the Soviet role.

If you look at civilaisns, the Soviet losses were between 10 and 15 million to the US 1,700.

Stalin was a monster, but he had a point when he complained about bearing the brunt of the war while he said the other allies delayed D-Day for years and let his country pay.

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Stalin had a point?

You must not know shit about Stalin, WWII or the USSR.

Look up how many civilians Stalin killed during his time in power.

Then break it down into how many during each specific period.
Look up how many civilians of his own country Stalin killed before WWII.
Look up how many civilians of his own country Stalin killed during WWII.
Look up how many civilians of his own country Stalin killed after WWII.

Stalin's soviet civilian/ukraine civilian death tolls are STAGGERING. Stalin was worse than Hitler. Its a travesty the allies more or less let Stalin slide after WWII.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
The soviet union won WW2 so I don't see how our media could have influenced it in any way. Also no soldier is deserving of praise for being a part of what our armed forces do.

Uh...

Of the allied military killed in WWII, the USSR had 65% of the losses, the US 2% (UK 2%, France 1%). It's fair to say the US has an underappreciation of the Soviet role.

If you look at civilaisns, the Soviet losses were between 10 and 15 million to the US 1,700.

Stalin was a monster, but he had a point when he complained about bearing the brunt of the war while he said the other allies delayed D-Day for years and let his country pay.

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Stalin had a point?

You must not know shit about Stalin, WWII or the USSR.

Look up how many civilians Stalin killed during his time in power.

Then break it down into how many during each specific period.
Look up how many civilians of his own country Stalin killed before WWII.
Look up how many civilians of his own country Stalin killed during WWII.
Look up how many civilians of his own country Stalin killed after WWII.

Stalin's soviet civilian/ukraine civilian death tolls are STAGGERING. Stalin was worse than Hitler. Its a travesty the allies more or less let Stalin slide after WWII.

I'm sorry you can't read. Everything you said has nothing to do with what I said Stalin had a point about, and fits under my statement Stalin was a monster.

You didn't even make the obvious argument against my post, that Stalin loses some sympathy for his first making a non-aggression pact with Hitler.

But that doesn't change the suffering of the Russian people.

My point stands, you said nothing that raises an issue with it.