Will We See r520 in AGP?

[crazydingo]

Originally posted by: Topweasel
Who says its easy to make a new card for AGP, yeah the Bridge is cheap to add but they have to rewire and redesign and recertify the boards for AGP, it may cost more in extra parts (who knows what the capasitor situation would be when taking into consideration AGP allows less then half the power that PCIe allows which means more power being pulled from power supply), then it would require a dedicated production line. Then it would require new boxes and since they didn't think about doing this write away simple things like manuals would have to get redone, then they would need to purchase extra retail space at some retail stores or lower the amount of their other products at said stores to sell them.

I don't have a degree an economy but thats like millions to help out one tenth of the 1% of systems that would use that type of card.

All ATI & Nvidia need to do is permit their partners to use their bridge, they dont have to worry about any of the above issues. Dont get so worked up. 😛

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: Topweasel
Who says its easy to make a new card for AGP, yeah the Bridge is cheap to add but they have to rewire and redesign and recertify the boards for AGP, it may cost more in extra parts (who knows what the capasitor situation would be when taking into consideration AGP allows less then half the power that PCIe allows which means more power being pulled from power supply), then it would require a dedicated production line. Then it would require new boxes and since they didn't think about doing this write away simple things like manuals would have to get redone, then they would need to purchase extra retail space at some retail stores or lower the amount of their other products at said stores to sell them.

I don't have a degree an economy but thats like millions to help out one tenth of the 1% of systems that would use that type of card.

Seeing on how a card will have a finite amount of power draw, regardless of the power being pushed through the PCIE interface or a molex connector. The card components will require X amount of current from Y voltage lines. The electronics on the cards serve to facilitate that function. If you recall the Xrays of the initial "native PCIE" cards were just bridged cards to begin with. So saying they will have to revalidate the process makes no sense. The process has already been accomplished.

Now from their perspective, they also sell motherboard chipsets. And what would be a great reason to rather than pass the cost of a bridge onto consumers, when you can get them with your chipset purchase. It's obvious why they don't want to just sell the extra bridge chip, when they can force you to get a package deal for a GPU and motherboard.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Ronin

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: ronnn
Heck my system is too slow for the x800xt pe I have. Really have to upgrade anyways. No good to me, but I think it would good to produce some. My only question is seeing the size of the r520 and than adding the agp bridge - might be a record of some kind.

actually our discussion in the locked fanboy thread is the reason for my starting this :Q

the r520 would "fit" in many high-end AGP systems 😉
[physical size shouldn't be the limiting factor]

i think the "demand" is there and ATI would be foolish not to produce it [considering their weak situation with X-fire]

Well, the demand has been there for nVidia to do the same, and yet...no AGP card. You think ATi is going to react any differently? It's not going to make up for the belated launches of both Crossfire and the R520, and I highly doubt it will change the market share.

End result: ATi needs to be making money, not spending it, and creating an AGP variant. No matter how inexpensive you *might* think it is, it isn't.

Neither company would be breaking my heart if they don't come up with an AGP variant, and I don't expect it. Technology is moving forward. If you can't afford to move with it, then that's your loss (I'm speaking in general terms, not to you specifically apoppin). Same holds true for CPUs. Slots change. Better things come out, and they come out fast. Fact is, it's expensive to keep up with technology. B!tching and moaning because technology does isn't going to inhibit it, and ATi and nVidia will continue to move forward, too.

Yes i do think ATI will react differently than nVidia.
1. They are very late to market with Xfire
2. X-fire Stinks . . . from an ati fan . . . it will get better but ATI better not try to sell very many
. 2.a Since they are not selling a second card [like nVidia] they cannod afford the luxury of ignoring High-End AGP users

3. There is ZERO performance reasons to move to PCIe from AGP . . . what? just to support a new videocard . . . 7800gtx would not be limited by an 8x agp slot
. 3a. Again ATI is "catching up" and they have to offer something DIFERENT fron nVidia IF they want the sales.

Keeping up with technology? this is an ARTIFICIAL push by the vendors 😛
:thumbsdown:

and i WILL NOT be "forced" to upgrade prematurely . . . i [and everyone in my position] has a superb ALTERNATIVE to PC gaming - the nextGen consoles and ATI knows this . . . i will NOT buy a PCIe card until i WANT to upgrade my rig . . . if they don't do the r520 in AGP, a 6800u or x800xtpw will have to "do" until then and ATI can LOSE my sale. :Q

Simple, no? it's economics 😉
---------------------------

Originally posted by: BadKarma
What if the AGP card costs $50-$60 more than the PCI-E card. Would you then reconsider upgrading to a PCI-E mobo for $60 more? You could always sell your old mobo and cpu and use that money towards the upgrade.

Screw that. Upgrade my CPU, RAM, MB and do a fresh O/S install just for a PCIe videocard that would not be faster than an AGP version?
:thumbsdown:

------------------------------------

 

[apoppin]

oops 😱

and i did confuse Ronin with ronnn . . . gotta watch those avatars 😛
😱

 

[imported_g33k]

Originally posted by: TGS
Or perhaps the people who still have their $400 dollar AGP card, which they purchased when pci-e was barely on the horizon. Those people might be satisfied with the performance of the system except for features in a new card.

I could care less about more AA or AF 4x8x is plenty. What I want is TR SSAA, but spending an additional 100-130 on a reputable pci-e board is a waste.

When you are working with a budget, and you don't get reference materials from sources you have to balance out the items you purchase. Forcing the end user to buy an unnecessary component which has no performance benefits for their current configuration is nonsense.

Do you see HDTVs in stores? Did they get rid of all the <32" TVs? Do you see the '06 car models on the lots? Did they stop making the <20k car models? The newer models of each has qualities that may make the overall product better. Though they also know that the market for people wanting the smaller upgrades will exist, and the products are brought to market to fit those needs.

When someone runs a 19" LCD with a single video card configuration, what benefits will moving to a PCI-E board give you? Are you PCI cards all converted to PCI-E? No. The benefits to moving to PCI-E on a single card configuration rhymes with *zero*.

PCI-E gives me nothing, other than taking away from a memory upgrade that I wanted to put into my system. Though I hardly believe that either ATI or Nvidia would care about my overall computing experience, more less than they have forced my upgrade path to purchase a particular configuration that nets them more money.

Nice post, and I feel the same way. Forking out more money for a part that will net me zero performance gain, just feels wrong. An AGP part would be an easy upgrade, while a new mobo makes me hesitant.

 

[bjc112]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
We won't see AGP because there's no excuse for somebody still being on it. You've had numerous opportunities to upgrade for little to no cash out of pocket to huge benefit for yourself and, frankly, if you haven't done it by now, then you aren't the kind of user who is going to plunk down $400 on a video card anyway.

/AGP

That's about as wrong as you can be.

 

[TomKazansky]

why should ati make agp anyway - they're already losing enough money on the r520

 

[T9D]

I'd buy an AGP ATI card. I'd prefer to buy an Nvidia card right now but they dont have an AGP either. So there's money ATI could make off me anyway.

I have a 3.4 ghz p4. With 1.5 gig's of ram. That's still a great processor. I have no problem upgradeing to PCI express when it's feasable but for right now it's not and makes no sense. I have no problem moving forward with technology but I'm not throwing money away. When it's time I need a faster processor I'll go to PCIe. For now these processors can still handle one last generation of videocards. No one here is holding back technology. Its called a transition period.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: tk109
I'd buy an AGP ATI card. I'd prefer to buy an Nvidia card right now but they dont have an AGP either. So there's money ATI could make off me anyway.

I have a 3.4 ghz p4. With 1.5 gig's of ram. That's still a great processor. I have no problem upgradeing to PCI express when it's feasable but for right now it's not and makes no sense. I have no problem moving forward with technology but I'm not throwing money away. When it's time I need a faster processor I'll go to PCIe. For now these processors can still handle one last generation of videocards. No one here is holding back technology. Its called a transition period.

i knew i'd find tons of examples of people in my situation . . .

Why the Hell should i "upgrade" my MB, CPU, RAM & reinstall my OS - for no perfornace gain OTHER than changing to a PCIe videocard with IDENTICAL performance to an AGP one?
:Q

why?

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Why the Hell should i "upgrade" my MB, CPU, RAM & reinstall my OS - for no perfornace gain OTHER than changing to a PCIe videocard with IDENTICAL performance to an AGP one?
:Q

why?

Because you also gain the possibility to move to dual core if you want to someday and because you can get an SLI board for not much more than regular PCIE board. Because if manufacturers don't have to develop AGP solutions for your lazy azz then they can cut costs. Because it would be better to sell while AGP still has some value before letting your hardware doddle off into obsolescence so you can recoup as much money as possible.

I'm a budget enthusiast and I'm on my second PCI-E board. But, then again, I was always good at math.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: apoppin
Why the Hell should i "upgrade" my MB, CPU, RAM & reinstall my OS - for no perfornace gain OTHER than changing to a PCIe videocard with IDENTICAL performance to an AGP one?
:Q

why?

Because you also gain the possibility to move to dual core if you want to someday and because you can get an SLI board for not much more than regular PCIE board. Because if manufacturers don't have to develop AGP solutions for your lazy azz then they can cut costs. Because it would be better to sell while AGP still has some value before letting your hardware doddle off into obsolescence so you can recoup as much money as possible.

I'm a budget enthusiast and I'm on my second PCI-E board. But, then again, I was always good at math.

good at math? it doesn't show in your posts. 😛

😀

i'm not currently looking for "possibilities" for future upgrades, just a Video Card, thanks
:roll:

not looking to waste money now . . . if don't need to upgrade anything EXCEPT my videocard
:thumbsdown:

 

[jasonja]

This most likely is more of a board maker decision, not ATI's. They already have the Rialto bridge chip that's used on the X800's..... no reason that wouldn't work on a R520. If the board maker wants to make an AGP board seems like it's their choice.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: jasonja
This most likely is more of a board maker decision, not ATI's. They already have the Rialto bridge chip that's used on the X800's..... no reason that wouldn't work on a R520. If the board maker wants to make an AGP board seems like it's their choice.

Damn! now that is a good thought! . . . seems logical and i wish i thought of it first . . . ati's partners aren't as tied to the reference card as nVidia's . . . plus the Rialto bridge chip is already available for ~$10 i think.
:thumbsup:

 

[jasonja]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: jasonja
This most likely is more of a board maker decision, not ATI's. They already have the Rialto bridge chip that's used on the X800's..... no reason that wouldn't work on a R520. If the board maker wants to make an AGP board seems like it's their choice.

Damn! now that is a good thought! . . . seems logical and i wish i thought of it first . . . ati's partners aren't as tied to the reference card as nVidia's . . . plus the Rialto bridge chip is already available for ~$10 i think.
:thumbsup:

Well I don't think nVidia is any different in this regard.. I thought their original bridge chip for AGP->PCIe worked the other way too (however I don't recall ever seeing a board use it for that). Maybe this isn't true for their bridge. Sure seems like these board makers would make more money off AGP cards rather then investiing their time in multiple GPU cards for $1k that almost nobody is going to buy.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: jasonja


Well I don't think nVidia is any different in this regard.. I thought their original bridge chip for AGP->PCIe worked the other way too (however I don't recall ever seeing a board use it for that). Maybe this isn't true for their bridge. Sure seems like these board makers would make more money off AGP cards rather then investiing their time in multiple GPU cards for $1k that almost nobody is going to buy.

nVidia said there would be NO agp versions of the 7800GTX[period] . . .

. . . well not unless there was enough demand 😛
😀

i think we'll see both ati and nVidia release their top cards in AGP. 😉

 

[Ronin]

What I think is that you're fighting for a dream world, and refuse to listen to reason, no matter how it's presented to you. Seriously, you think your situation is going to dictate to ATi, or nVidia, whether they release an AGP version? Please.

As far as net performance gains to PCIe, golly gee, what's SLi? Unless you can show me an AGP SLi setup, the argument is flawed.

No matter how you rationalize your situation, or someone tries to present how 'simple it would be to make an AGP variant', it doesn't change fact. Both companies (nVidia at release of the 7800 and since then, and ATi speculatorily recently, contradicting earlier reports around CeBit time) have stated there would be no AGP variants (yes, nVidia stated they would if there was enough demand, but unless I miss my mark here, I'm pretty sure the 7800GTX, and the 7800GT, have been selling quite well).

It's technology, folks. Move with it, or run antiquated hardware. If that's sufficient enough for you, more power. I don't think any less of you. If your machine performs the way you want it to, then that's great. However, expecting new releases of hardware with new standards available to be regressive is a bit presumptuous, wouldn't you say?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

What bothers me is whether or not the current high-end AGP cards will soon become scarce. What if I don't want to spend $400 on an x850xt-pe today, but would like to spend $200 on it two years from now (when the price should be $200 or lower)? Would new cards even be available for purchase from retailers two years from now? If they are no longer manufacturing new units, then eventually they will be gone.

So, the guy who's happy running slightly older technology is screwed two years from now when he wants to upgrade his video card simply because the most powerful AGP cards ever produced will no longer be available for purchase (new) from retailers for then reasonable prices. (By reasonable I mean, a price appropriate for a card of its power at the time, which would be much lower than the card's price today.)

That's what I find really bothersome. The high end AGP cards are already becoming scarce at the major e-tailers. NewEgg's stock of the 6800 GT in AGP is pathetic (and almost non-existant).

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: apoppin
good at math? it doesn't show in your posts. 😛

😀

i'm not currently looking for "possibilities" for future upgrades, just a Video Card, thanks
:roll:

not looking to waste money now . . . if don't need to upgrade anything EXCEPT my videocard
:thumbsdown:

My upgrade to PCI-E and then PCI-E SLI cost me a net of $0. There is actually a forum on this site called "Hot Deals" where people out of the goodness of their heart, post occassionally great deals. You really should check it out. 😉

And when you upgrade every 6 months or so the depreciation on your current hardware is minimal. I got 90% of what I paid for my 6600GT and I had it almost a year.

Even if it ended up costing $80 to upgrade (after selling your current gear), you guys are complaining about being denied the privelage of buying super high end cards that will cost 5X that much. Give me a break. :roll:

The only excuse you have is that you don't want to reinstall your OS. I just reinstalled my OS this past weekend moving to x64 and it really wasn't that traumatic. I have all my install disks in a pile and did other things while the OS was installing. A total of a couple mostly unattended hours. If you're too lazy to do that then switching out video cards would probably be too monumental a task for you anyway, so instead I propose you just try to fool yourself further into believing your 9800 Pro is "almost" as good as a 7800GTX anyway. 😛

 

[aldamon]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

That's what I find really bothersome. The high end AGP cards are already becoming scarce at the major e-tailers. NewEgg's stock of the 6800 GT in AGP is pathetic (and almost non-existant).

IMO, this is the REAL reason for a lack of an AGP 7800 variant. The second they are released the 6800 GT and Ultra would stop selling. Once the 6800s dry up we'll see an AGP 7800 card.

If I'm wrong, I'll just stick my overclocked 3700+ and 6800 "Ultra." It's not the end of the world. I'm reluctant to give up my Epox 8kda3j because I have the VDIMM modded for my UTT. The Socket 754 / PCI-E board I've considered, the DFI NF4X, only goes up to ~3.1V on the VDIMM.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: Ronin
What I think is that you're fighting for a dream world, and refuse to listen to reason, no matter how it's presented to you. Seriously, you think your situation is going to dictate to ATi, or nVidia, whether they release an AGP version? Please.

As far as net performance gains to PCIe, golly gee, what's SLi? Unless you can show me an AGP SLi setup, the argument is flawed.

No matter how you rationalize your situation, or someone tries to present how 'simple it would be to make an AGP variant', it doesn't change fact. Both companies (nVidia at release of the 7800 and since then, and ATi speculatorily recently, contradicting earlier reports around CeBit time) have stated there would be no AGP variants (yes, nVidia stated they would if there was enough demand, but unless I miss my mark here, I'm pretty sure the 7800GTX, and the 7800GT, have been selling quite well).

It's technology, folks. Move with it, or run antiquated hardware. If that's sufficient enough for you, more power. I don't think any less of you. If your machine performs the way you want it to, then that's great. However, expecting new releases of hardware with new standards available to be regressive is a bit presumptuous, wouldn't you say?

I keep reiterating in a single slot configuration. AGP is hardly antiquated in a *single slot* configuration.

Nobody is arguing that the 7 series isn't moving. The majority of profits made from either ATI or Nvidia are hardly made in the cutting edge cards anyways. The low to mid end range has always been the bread and butter of both respective operations. Exception being made for Intel, who dominates the graphics chipset world through integrated numbers.

There are clear advantages to having an SLI capable system. Now if I want to actually benefit from those advances, I will have to purchase a new monitor to support a higher resolution. Something that I'm not in the market to do.

All I hear is a lot of antiquated this, and upgrade for the future that. It's all just spin for a product that will ultimately cost me more, for little gains. I for one bought a 6800GT specificly to drive my 19" LCD. A coupled purchase of nearly $800. I had to upgrade the 9700pro due to the fact the 9700 couldn't drive the monitor at the native resolution, and the AA/AF settings I prefer to run in.

I could care less about, anything above 1280x1024 4xAA/8xAF. What I really want is TR SSAA. That's a real tangible IQ feature that is worth "upgrading" for. I'm not going SLI and probably never will. The cost for performance is no where close to any reasonable numbers, though I've mentioned I play at 1280x1024.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Ronin
What I think is that you're fighting for a dream world, and refuse to listen to reason, no matter how it's presented to you. Seriously, you think your situation is going to dictate to ATi, or nVidia, whether they release an AGP version? Please.

As far as net performance gains to PCIe, golly gee, what's SLi? Unless you can show me an AGP SLi setup, the argument is flawed.

No matter how you rationalize your situation, or someone tries to present how 'simple it would be to make an AGP variant', it doesn't change fact. Both companies (nVidia at release of the 7800 and since then, and ATi speculatorily recently, contradicting earlier reports around CeBit time) have stated there would be no AGP variants (yes, nVidia stated they would if there was enough demand, but unless I miss my mark here, I'm pretty sure the 7800GTX, and the 7800GT, have been selling quite well).

It's technology, folks. Move with it, or run antiquated hardware. If that's sufficient enough for you, more power. I don't think any less of you. If your machine performs the way you want it to, then that's great. However, expecting new releases of hardware with new standards available to be regressive is a bit presumptuous, wouldn't you say?

dream world? fooling myself?

When the r520 is released in AGP we'll see who 's presumptious 😛
:Q
EDIT: show me a link where "ati said" there will be no agp r520s . . . you couldn't find even one a few days ago - your speculation is about as good as mine. :roll:
:thumbsdown:

and HoP, i don't intend to 'fool myself ' into thinking my 9800xt is as fast as your GTX - rather i intend to buy an agp r520 that IS faster than your GTX [and stick it in my old system] . . . that's all 😉
😀

edit: after listening to the negative nonsense on why i should upgrade to PCIe . . . it comes down to one thing: DEMAND . . . . IF there is MONEY to be MADE, both nVidia and ATI will release their top cards in AGP . . . after their done screwing you guys by fooling you into upgrading early 😛

😀

 

[bjc112]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: apoppin
Why the Hell should i "upgrade" my MB, CPU, RAM & reinstall my OS - for no perfornace gain OTHER than changing to a PCIe videocard with IDENTICAL performance to an AGP one?
:Q

why?

Because you also gain the possibility to move to dual core if you want to someday and because you can get an SLI board for not much more than regular PCIE board. Because if manufacturers don't have to develop AGP solutions for your lazy azz then they can cut costs. Because it would be better to sell while AGP still has some value before letting your hardware doddle off into obsolescence so you can recoup as much money as possible.

I'm a budget enthusiast and I'm on my second PCI-E board. But, then again, I was always good at math.

Wow...

I have an AGP setup, and chances are it's better than your PCI-E setup.. There is no point for me to drop my board ( which is a champion ) for no performance gain ( in the same lineup )

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: apoppin
edit: after listening to the negative nonsense on why i should upgrade to PCIe . . . it comes down to one thing: DEMAND . . . . IF there is MONEY to be MADE, both nVidia and ATI will release their top cards in AGP . . . after their done screwing you guys by fooling you into upgrading early 😛

😀

Nice try. Actually the reason you should upgrade is because there's no reason NOT to (at least YOU haven't come up with a decent reason why not to) and several very good reasons to. Unless you just want to be some obnoxious kid who would get a power trip from forcing a company to cater to your niche segment or are being stubborn, in a bad way, about having to admit your precious rig is finally facing the obsolescence so many of us rightfully predicted and acted upon.

You don't even know if R520 will be faster but you just proclaimed yourself a fanboi by saying it will be. Anyway, you better hope not, because unless you have a 754 motherboard your little A-XP is going to be holding back anything beyond a 6800GT anyway.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: apoppin
edit: after listening to the negative nonsense on why i should upgrade to PCIe . . . it comes down to one thing: DEMAND . . . . IF there is MONEY to be MADE, both nVidia and ATI will release their top cards in AGP . . . after their done screwing you guys by fooling you into upgrading early 😛

😀

Nice try. Actually the reason you should upgrade is because there's no reason NOT to (at least YOU haven't come up with a decent reason why not to) and several very good reasons to. Unless you just want to be some obnoxious kid who would get a power trip from forcing a company to cater to your niche segment or are being stubborn, in a bad way, about having to admit your precious rig is finally facing the obsolescence so many of us rightfully predicted and acted upon.

You don't even know if R520 will be faster but you just proclaimed yourself a fanboi by saying it will be. Anyway, you better hope not, because unless you have a 754 motherboard your little A-XP is going to be holding back anything beyond a 6800GT anyway.

that's pretty silly . . . "no reason not to" . . . you haven't been paying attention

1.there is Zero performance gain by moving my MB to PCIe
2.it costs me time and money for no performance gain

you haven't given ANY good reasons to upgrade
:thumbsdown:

Just because you were fooled by nVidia marketing BS doesn't mean i have been fooled also
:roll:

Remember we have debated before and i deliberately poked fun at you and your GTX setup with my r520 'jab' - did you miss the "😀" ? . . .
. . .
your mind is tightly shut and i prefer a little humor to taking you seriously 😉

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: apoppin
edit: after listening to the negative nonsense on why i should upgrade to PCIe . . . it comes down to one thing: DEMAND . . . . IF there is MONEY to be MADE, both nVidia and ATI will release their top cards in AGP . . . after their done screwing you guys by fooling you into upgrading early 😛

😀

Nice try. Actually the reason you should upgrade is because there's no reason NOT to (at least YOU haven't come up with a decent reason why not to) and several very good reasons to. Unless you just want to be some obnoxious kid who would get a power trip from forcing a company to cater to your niche segment or are being stubborn, in a bad way, about having to admit your precious rig is finally facing the obsolescence so many of us rightfully predicted and acted upon.

You don't even know if R520 will be faster but you just proclaimed yourself a fanboi by saying it will be. Anyway, you better hope not, because unless you have a 754 motherboard your little A-XP is going to be holding back anything beyond a 6800GT anyway.

Again, please explain the advantages of moving from a 6800gt agp to a pcie 6800gt? Nothing. The disadvantages, added cost for saying hey I'm using PCIE. I still don't understand how a 6800GT is facing obsolescence when it's now the second best series card for Nvidias lineup.

Looking at non-SLI configurations you have 7800GTX > 7800GT > 6800 Ultra > 6800GT. I'm not talking about using some Geforce MX card, and why can't they make a MX 5.

I'll say it again and again, I want the feature set. The speed bump is nice but not necessary for the games that I play. I'm not play F.E.A.R which pratically requires SLI 7800GTX to play acceptable frames. BF 2 and WoW work fine under the 6800GT. Though I would really like the TR SSAA functions of the 7800. In the end, will I upgrade. Most likely. Though at the time I do, the cost of the card and the motherboard will have to drop to what I want to spend for a card today. If I don't get a nvidia or ati motherboard, which I probably won't looking at the ULI boards, they will get a portion of my current budget when I wait for the price drop. To me it's not a big deal, I'm just wondering why they don't want the money I'm willing to spend *today*.

All of the talk of how AGP is dead comes from either the early adopters of PCIE boards, trying to explain how great PCIE is over AGP without giving the tangibles. Or people using SLI who get the *actual real benefits* from moving to PCIE. In a dual slot configuration and for cutting edge performance, in a money is no option scenario, the advantages of moving to PCIE are undeniable. For the single slot users, using a lower res, the benefits are just not there.

Just so we are clear hero, the niche segment is the 7800 area. I'd be willing to venture a large portion of 6800GTs and Ultras might fit into that category. The lion share of profits from graphics companies are made in the low-mid range.