Will there ever be a rewrite of windows, similar to OSX vs classic?

Hugo Drax

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2011
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Windows 8 is still based on archaic Win32/Win64 with some stuff thrown on top ie: WPF and maybe some use of .NET here and there and now you have "Metro Apps" which is another API but its a full screen 1980s style Tiled environment not windowed environment.
And RT stuff is really suited for tablets. Also Win RT still ties all the way back to Win32/64 foundation.

So why not start a new modern clean Operating system? and create the equivalent of classic mode/Rosetta similar to what Apple did when they scrapped the old OS?

With the VM abilities of modern CPUs I do not see why this is an impossibility, even in Apple desktops you can run windows apps in Crystal mode via Parallels.
 

Kingbee13

Senior member
Jul 17, 2007
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Windows 8 is still based on archaic Win32/Win64 with some stuff thrown on top ie: WPF and maybe some use of .NET here and there and now you have "Metro Apps" which is another API but its a full screen 1980s style Tiled environment not windowed environment.
And RT stuff is really suited for tablets. Also Win RT still ties all the way back to Win32/64 foundation.

So why not start a new modern clean Operating system? and create the equivalent of classic mode/Rosetta similar to what Apple did when they scrapped the old OS?

With the VM abilities of modern CPUs I do not see why this is an impossibility, even in Apple desktops you can run windows apps in Crystal mode via Parallels.

But OsX wasn't a new OS either, it ties back into Unix.
 

cl-scott

ASUS Support
Jul 5, 2012
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Windows Vista, while it wasn't the major overhaul it was originally set to be, was still a pretty major overhaul of big chunks of the OS.

The UI was rewritten to use DirectX instead of GDI+, the process scheduler was revamped to be much better with multi-core CPUs as opposed to SMP setups (subtle, but important difference), the driver model was hardened considerably. I'm sure there are other things I'm forgetting here that others can mention.

That said Mac OS X really wasn't a new OS. It was just kind of a slightly new face on an existing OS called NeXTStep, which was essentially a Unix variant. In fact, before Apple took over NeXT and brought Jobs back on, there was the release of the OpenStep API which was the foundation for the Cocoa API in Mac OS X. There's even a volunteer effort called GNUStep that is working on fully implementing the OpenStep API, and at least some apps written with GNUStep can be recompiled on Mac OS X without modification and work.

So, while it's true Apple scrapped Mac OS Classic, they didn't just create Mac OS X out of thin air. They took the GUI from NeXTStep and then made it work on a core OS which was based on FreeBSD. AFAIK, and to Apple's credit, they still make regular code dumps to the FreeBSD project with some of the modifications they've made. They're not required to do this under the BSD license, so they do deserve credit for doing so, even if they tend to just be these massive code dumps that are so big that it's a lot of work to try and backport anything from them to the main FreeBSD codebase. I know the KHTML developers, which Apple used to create the rendering engine for Safari, basically just gave up trying. By the time Apple contributed anything back, their own efforts had diverged far enough that it wasn't worth it trying to bring it back in line.

That being said, I have long said that the Windows XP Mode in Windows 7 is the perfect delivery method by which Microsoft could completely recreate Windows. You have a "classic" version of Windows running in a VM with some behind the scenes magic to make them look and act very much like native apps. Then you just make it very clear that this feature will disappear in 2-3 releases, so people need to get cracking on making native apps for the new OS. Hopefully avoiding the fate that befell OS/2 Warp, where it's Win16 API support was good enough that almost no one created OS/2 native apps.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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Windows 8 is still based on archaic Win32/Win64 with some stuff thrown on top ie: WPF and maybe some use of .NET here and there and now you have "Metro Apps" which is another API but its a full screen 1980s style Tiled environment not windowed environment.
And RT stuff is really suited for tablets. Also Win RT still ties all the way back to Win32/64 foundation.

So why not start a new modern clean Operating system? and create the equivalent of classic mode/Rosetta similar to what Apple did when they scrapped the old OS?

With the VM abilities of modern CPUs I do not see why this is an impossibility, even in Apple desktops you can run windows apps in Crystal mode via Parallels.

You haven't really listed any reasons for doing so. Just because Win8 includes older stuff like Win32, COM+, the registry, etc doesn't mean they're bad and need replaced. Just look at how Linux is in everything from APs and phones to laptops and super computers even though it's based upon even older and, I'm sure to you, more archaic foundations. One of the main reasons Windows permeates computing is because of it's compatibility. What benefits would be had from a "new modern clean Operating system"? If you're throwing away all compatibility and running Windows in a VM for compatibility why not use one of the dozens of available academic OSes like NetBSD or GNU Hurd? Or one of the more prevalent, practical OSes like FreeBSD, QNX or even Linux?

I'm sure MS could pull an Apple and take one of those, write a new GUI for it (so that you can't just call it by the old name and run X apps on it) and include an XP VM in under a year. But what would that get them?

MS is a for-profit company so they would need good, money making reasons to do something like that. Apple pretty much had to because OS 9 and below was a shit OS anyway. But Windows has a strong foundation with the NT kernel and a lot of the stuff you think is archaic.
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
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Microsoft believes in backward compatibility. There are so many companies that make software for Windows, I think they are taking the correct direction for most people. A complete rewrite just has too many risks involved.

Besides, Windows performs very well with hardware that is currently available, IMO.
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
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Along with what everyone else has already said, technically speaking MS has already overhauled Windows once. That's what Windows NT was in the 1990s, though it took several years to trickle down to consumers. Meanwhile Mac OS X only came after the failure of their first modernization project (Copland) years earlier, so rather than being the first Apple was basically the last major OS vendor to roll out what we would now recognize as a "modern" OS.
 

zephxiii

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Sep 29, 2009
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There has been a lot of change and improvement since XP. And aside from Vista I agree that windows does run VERY well on older hardware. I learned this from running ubuntu on an old T43 which i felt impressed how windows 7 ran on it in comparison.
 

cl-scott

ASUS Support
Jul 5, 2012
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I'm sure MS could pull an Apple and take one of those, write a new GUI for it (so that you can't just call it by the old name and run X apps on it) and include an XP VM in under a year. But what would that get them?

In a word: Security. In seven words: Security and a more flexible code base

Having at least enough programming experience to know I'm a lousy programmer, I'm not someone who's going to think it should be rewritten for the sake of being rewritten, I think there are a couple of good reasons for doing so.

The first and foremost among them would be security. That backwards compatibility is often times getting in the way, or at least complicating, the fixing of security issues.

Take IE's ActiveX, which was developed in the age of innocence for the Internet. It could be argued ActiveX made malware possible, but that's another discussion for another time. For our purposes here, we just need to know that Microsoft never really bothered to sandbox it properly, and their idea of security initially was that people would digitally sign controls so that if something went wrong, you knew who to sue for damages. So fast forward a decade or so to today, and we see how well that idea worked out. However, at this point, there's really no way Microsoft could go in and properly secure ActiveX without breaking a significant number of ActiveX controls, which would have who knows how many Fortune 500 companies calling up with rather unpleasant messages about how their company Intranet, last updated when IE4 was the latest and greatest, suddenly stopped working.

Beyond that, anyone who has enough programming experience knows that if a program goes on for a long enough period of time, it will invariably develop in ways you could never have anticipated when you started. So there will ultimately come a time where trying to shoehorn and massage your existing code into the new directions will ultimately hamper progress, lead to more bugs, etc. Plus, along the way you develop experience about what things worked really well, which ideas were dead ends, etc. When Windows was created, it was more or less at the height of the individual PC. Every computer was an island unto itself, and if there was any networking going on at all, it was via tightly controlled corporate networks. For the most part, there was no Internet, so no need to worry about external intrusion to the network either. Windows was designed with a single user in mind, and then giving that user more or less free reign over the entire computer. That holds true, to a somewhat lesser extent, even with NT. Times have changed, and those assumptions really don't hold true anymore.

Microsoft could, potentially, create a fully multi-user OS, that has a strong emphasis on the multimedia demands of people today, while being able to also take the time to design those features in a more security conscious way. For years Microsoft put features first and security was sort of an if they got around to it second. So here's an opportunity to build an OS where they can take their time and consider the security implications of various features.

So what it could help Microsoft do is avoid another Vista, where they had a number of grand ambitions that they had to scrap one by one because of the need to maintain that backwards compatibility. They would have a much more flexible foundation to build on. I'm betting if they did something like this, it'd blow Mac OS X out of the water, just like Mac OS X blew XP out of the water, and probably put Linux on the desktop back even further.

And, as already covered, with there being hardware level virtualization support, the transition could be done with a considerable level more grace than Apple was able to achieve when they moved to Mac OS X. The only real risk would be that people just keep writing Win32 apps instead of WinX (or whatever they call the new API) apps. So there would have to be some method in place to discourage people from that, and Microsoft would have to actually stick to it despite the pressure they'd undoubtedly get from companies caught with their pants around their ankles for the Y2K debacle. Otherwise they'd be stuck supporting two different operating systems for decades.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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I still don't think it would really be worth it. NT was multiuser from the beginning and the security is there, it's just that the default settings were so bad that it didn't seem like it. You probably remember, but NT4 was given C2 security certification and went above it to the point of almost getting B2 certification from the DoD. Within the past 10 years we've seen NT get better defaults, driver signing, NX/DEP, UAC, ASLR, HEASLR and sandboxing in IE which are some pretty big leaps in additional security.

And MS has been adding in multimedia capabilities as needed, for example Win8 finally has a tickless kernel which results in power savings and more precise timers.

I just don't really see what real benefit a rewrite would have for MS and the downsides are huge since they'll definitely lose tons of compatibility.