Will their be a WoW Killer?

[DirthNader]

Originally posted by: darkrisen2003
I highly doubt that much has changed since I left in all honesty.

It has. Blizzard has been very vocal about their efforts to make every spec of every class viable. There are still some encounters where a certain class / spec is preferred (not required) over another, but for the most part any class / spec that can tank / heal / dps doesn't have a real leg up over the others.

I used to play a shaman, and was forced into resto to raid because the shaman dps specs were sub-par. The only reason shaman were brought at all was totems. My current guild just beat the hardest encounter currently in the game, and we had all three specs of shaman in the raid, and all three more than carried their weight (even without taking into account totems). We had a holy pally healing the MT, a prot pally as an OT, and a ret pally was near the top of dps. Moonkins, warlocks, hunters, rogues, dps warriors, etc. The key to the fight was people that knew what they were doing, not the raid comp itself.

If the game was the old WoW you were describing and that I quit years ago, I wouldn't be playing now.

 

[SupaDupaPan]

I still think WoW is following in the footsteps of EQ. Despite what you say about party, there is a party formula. It's DPS/Healer/Tank pretty much. Doesn't matter which you have, you can substitute for another. I mean sometimes you'll get too many melee DPS or too many caster DPS or ranged, however, again, it can be substituted pretty easily. Need a healer? Get a Pally/Druid/Priest/Shaman (Pick one! )

My standpoint though, is from that of a newer player's rather than that of a veteran or someone who has played for quite some time. Those who have been playing for quite some time most likely sooner or later, quit due to repetition/game gets old for them etc. However, it's the newer players that I would think Blizzard wants to hook so that they subscribe and play for X amount of months/years. The older players, Blizzard already has milked their money from them and the only thing that is left is to come out with new content. But even that gets old.

 

[ed21x]

Blizzard will most likely create another MMO and allow people with WoW accounts to migrate over (not with level/equip, but just to sign into this new game from their WoW account). This will instantly give them a huge install base while updating the engine and keeping competetive. Over time, WoW players will change to this new MMO and one by one, the WoW servers will be shut down and reconfigured for this new one.

 

[DirthNader]

Originally posted by: SupaDupaPan
I still think WoW is following in the footsteps of EQ. Despite what you say about party, there is a party formula. It's DPS/Healer/Tank pretty much. Doesn't matter which you have, you can substitute for another. I mean sometimes you'll get too many melee DPS or too many caster DPS or ranged, however, again, it can be substituted pretty easily. Need a healer? Get a Pally/Druid/Priest/Shaman (Pick one! )

You're describing the holy trinity of any group-based RPG. This archetype existed long before EQ, going back into pen-and-paper RPGs.

Trust me, games that implement / allow a class that can do everything suffer. The old EQ, any number of profession combinations in SWG, etc.

 

[SupaDupaPan]

Understood, the post was more aimed at darkrisen2003 than at your post :[ His description of:

"Grouping was almost unbearable to me due to the little no patience kids that would disband within 2 minutes if the group wasnt ready forceing more wait time before any fun could be had. Which also contributes to my earlier point of Everquest having more options due to more races/classes. In everquest you had at least 3 tank style classes, several hybrids, 3 healers, plenty of DPS, several croud control classes, and some that could be substituted for what you needed. There were benefits of having specific party make-ups but you could substitute plenty of class combo's to make up for what was missing in the party. In wow you pretty much are forced to have specific party make-ups which pissed me off."

 

[Sureshot324]

D3 is not going to topple WOW. There will be a sharp decline in WOW subscriptions when it's released, and then those people will gradually go back to WOW. I think WAR has a chance in the long run. No game is going take down wow as soon as it's launched. It takes time to build up a player base and to improve the game.

 

[darkrisen2003]

Wow really has ruined the MMO industry in my opinion as other have stated. Every single MMO that is even mentioned is instantly compared to wow. The simplistic play style has forced other to follow in the footsteps and take the depth out of the games. I highly doubt the subscriber numbers that are released to the press are active though. With as many people that have left for other MMO's or consoles etc there is no way that number is still that high unless they are using the lifetime of the game since launch numbers combined to present day which is not a fair comparison.

It really is hard to argue my points though to everyone since wow really has warped the way people think about MMO's. I have tried to have a debate with 50 colleges at my old job and it was a nightmare. Only one person sided with me and understood my points and that was only because he finally quit and checked into other MMO's and saw what I was talking about.

 

[Dinkbat]

Originally posted by: darkrisen2003
Wow really has ruined the MMO industry in my opinion as other have stated. Every single MMO that is even mentioned is instantly compared to wow. The simplistic play style has forced other to follow in the footsteps and take the depth out of the games. I highly doubt the subscriber numbers that are released to the press are active though. With as many people that have left for other MMO's or consoles etc there is no way that number is still that high unless they are using the lifetime of the game since launch numbers combined to present day which is not a fair comparison.

It really is hard to argue my points though to everyone since wow really has warped the way people think about MMO's. I have tried to have a debate with 50 colleges at my old job and it was a nightmare. Only one person sided with me and understood my points and that was only because he finally quit and checked into other MMO's and saw what I was talking about.

I agree MMO's are now going to be like WoW companies all think that in order to have a successful MMO that it needs to be like WoW, but you can't make something as good when your ripping it off. Funcom created AoC saying it was nothing like wow. lol The only difference was the melee combat system which sucked! Warhammer is EXACTLY like wow, but then again Blizzard did steal from Warhammer, so I can see why they tried to do the same to Blizzard. Right now Blizzard is unstoppable, because of the way the molded the MMO community it's time for a revolutionary MMO to come out by Microsoft or EA.

 

[DirthNader]

Originally posted by: darkrisen2003
It really is hard to argue my points though to everyone since wow really has warped the way people think about MMO's. I have tried to have a debate with 50 colleges at my old job and it was a nightmare. Only one person sided with me and understood my points and that was only because he finally quit and checked into other MMO's and saw what I was talking about.

You're not getting much pushback here on the idea that WoW's success has done harm to the MMO industry overall. I think we'd all love to see the old MMO world back, where games with small but profitable subscriber bases could be considered a success, and thus create a diverse group of MMOs across multiple genres.

You're still clinging to an outdated concept of what WoW itself is. Holding up EQ as a paragon doesn't help your argument either, especially when the era of WoW you're familiar with is the product of some of the most hardcore of the EQ hardcore.

Community-wise, I won't argue with you. In that sense, WoW is a victim of its own success. Coming back after a two-year hiatus, I'm stunned at how much worse the community as a whole is. Any game that gets to that level of mainstream success will have the same problem.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: DirthNader
Any entertainment industry that gets to that level of mainstream success will have the same problem.

Fixed. This has been a problem for longer than I have been alive.

 

[Scrimmy]

Originally posted by: SupaDupaPan
I still think WoW is following in the footsteps of EQ. Despite what you say about party, there is a party formula. It's DPS/Healer/Tank pretty much. Doesn't matter which you have, you can substitute for another. I mean sometimes you'll get too many melee DPS or too many caster DPS or ranged, however, again, it can be substituted pretty easily. Need a healer? Get a Pally/Druid/Priest/Shaman (Pick one! )

My standpoint though, is from that of a newer player's rather than that of a veteran or someone who has played for quite some time. Those who have been playing for quite some time most likely sooner or later, quit due to repetition/game gets old for them etc. However, it's the newer players that I would think Blizzard wants to hook so that they subscribe and play for X amount of months/years. The older players, Blizzard already has milked their money from them and the only thing that is left is to come out with new content. But even that gets old.

As a former hard-core now casual raider, it really is a completely different game in a lot of respects, and most of the ones that matter.

Just for some perspective: I started raiding on my druid when raiding meant taking 30 people into buggy Scholo and half the raid could die instantly to stacked ghoul disease clouds. Then I had a full Cenarion set (minus maybe one piece, I think) while they still had the green placeholder graphics. My guild had Horde-side and occasionally server-first kills all the way up to Naxx. Then I burned out because the game became more time-consuming and stressful than the full-time job that pays my mortgage.

I sold my account and quit for about a year and a half, then started up fresh with a new account when WotLK came out. Seriously, it's a completely different game and you only need to look at the complaints about the lack of hard-core content to see it. Classes are balanced completely differently than they used to and most, if not all, specs are viable for their given roles.

Something I see regularly in chat I never, ever expected to see:
"10 man Naxx LF boomkin!"

I'm feral and cash is so easy to come by I respec pretty frequently between tank, dps, and PvP specs. Tells I never expected to get (admittedly for some fairly lightweight content, but these specs are as much in demand for raiding guilds):
"You feral?"
"Yep"
"Great, want to tank heroic Gundrak?"

"You feral?"
"Yep"
"Want to do heroic VoA, we need a kitty."

I'm sure Ulduan will raise the cap on the hardcore content a bit, but it's still a very casual-friendly game now where you hop and play for an hour or two, then hop off feeling like you accomplished something. It's not quite Hello Kitty Online, but it's about as accomodating to a casual playstyle as you could expect from an MMO.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: DirthNader

All you're describing is mudflation.

Blizzard has done an excellent job of making sure new items exist for the purpose of enabling new content. If anything, they're doing the opposite of what you describe in the last sentence, and using the content as the lure that keeps people on the gear treadmill. Want to see the next raid instance? Better get the current stuff on farm so that you'll have the gear to manage the next raid.

Where I think mudflation and Blizzard's methods of dealing with it will eventually stop WoW's growth is in new player subs. Even with the changes to speed up leveling in the old world, bringing a new character up from nothing to level 80 is a daunting task.

The KOTOR MMO will more than likley flop. I say that as a huge Star Wars fan. It'll be interesting to see how Bioware handles Jedi in an MMO, because SOE completely botched it (I had a DJK before the first round of sweeping changes to SWG, so I can speak from first-hand experience there).

Yes, it is absolutely mudflation I'm describing. Does it matter if they are inflating equipment to get people to the new content or creating new content to get people inflated equipment? Either way we end up in mudflation. And it is unavoidable. An action RPG like almost all MMOs are character development driven. If your character stops developing it becomes boring. Once it becomes boring people move on to something else. The only way to keep the treadmill going is to keep the stats inflating. And as anyone that has played MUDs knows, this is the eventual downfall of the system.

I?ve been an IMP or developer for 3 different MUDS for more then 15 years. I?ve banged my head against that wall more times then I can count. There is no solution. All such systems die of their own weight.

How does the inflation of stats cause people to move on even though there are reasons to continue progressing with your character?

 

[Shebnay]

Originally posted by: Manticorps
I'm thinking(actually more "hoping") that the "successful" MMO's of the future will target smaller segments of the gaming population and try to tailor their games to that segment, rather than trying to appeal to everyone.

I'm really hoping for that as well. Although it is hard to see that happening from a business standpoint. I think that's what killed my buzz for WoW.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Shebnay

Originally posted by: Manticorps
I'm thinking(actually more "hoping") that the "successful" MMO's of the future will target smaller segments of the gaming population and try to tailor their games to that segment, rather than trying to appeal to everyone.

I'm really hoping for that as well. Although it is hard to see that happening from a business standpoint. I think that's what killed my buzz for WoW.

Yep agree with both of you.

RE: OP, I think new Bioware MMO's have promise like Star Wars, and don't underestimate free to play MMO model yet (has potential).

 

[SupaDupaPan]

Originally posted by: Scrimmy

As a former hard-core now casual raider, it really is a completely different game in a lot of respects, and most of the ones that matter.

Just for some perspective: I started raiding on my druid when raiding meant taking 30 people into buggy Scholo and half the raid could die instantly to stacked ghoul disease clouds. Then I had a full Cenarion set (minus maybe one piece, I think) while they still had the green placeholder graphics. My guild had Horde-side and occasionally server-first kills all the way up to Naxx. Then I burned out because the game became more time-consuming and stressful than the full-time job that pays my mortgage.

I sold my account and quit for about a year and a half, then started up fresh with a new account when WotLK came out. Seriously, it's a completely different game and you only need to look at the complaints about the lack of hard-core content to see it. Classes are balanced completely differently than they used to and most, if not all, specs are viable for their given roles.

Something I see regularly in chat I never, ever expected to see:
"10 man Naxx LF boomkin!"

I'm feral and cash is so easy to come by I respec pretty frequently between tank, dps, and PvP specs. Tells I never expected to get (admittedly for some fairly lightweight content, but these specs are as much in demand for raiding guilds):
"You feral?"
"Yep"
"Great, want to tank heroic Gundrak?"

"You feral?"
"Yep"
"Want to do heroic VoA, we need a kitty."

I'm sure Ulduan will raise the cap on the hardcore content a bit, but it's still a very casual-friendly game now where you hop and play for an hour or two, then hop off feeling like you accomplished something. It's not quite Hello Kitty Online, but it's about as accomodating to a casual playstyle as you could expect from an MMO.

My stance on the whole thing was based upon questioning players who are recently joining the game. I currently still do play and still do raids :/

 

[gregoryvg]

I don't think anything will topple WoW, at least not in the next 5 to 10 years. WoW is a freak, an outlier of the market and I doubt anything will gain such appeal again.

I also think that developers need to stop trying to topple WoW and do not try to "out WoW" WoW. Make your own damn game. Make it different, make it fun and make it interesting. People who played WoW for years do not want to switch to a WoW Clone.

Develpers need to stop trying to hit 10M customers and go back to aiming for a good base of 250-500k active subscribers. I'd rather have 10 different MMO's to choose from that are all different and have healthy players bases, than the 1 massive 10M game and 10 clones of said game.

 

[gregoryvg]

Time alone will kill WoW. After countless years and expansions, they all die eventually.

Perhaps, but even a dead WoW is going to have around a million subscribers.

 

[stlcardinals]

Blizzard will eventually kill WoW themselves.

Proof: Jeff Kaplan left the Wow team to oversee Blizzard's "Next-Gen MMO".

 

[natebigdawg]

Originally posted by: gregoryvg
I don't think anything will topple WoW, at least not in the next 5 to 10 years. WoW is a freak, an outlier of the market and I doubt anything will gain such appeal again.

I also think that developers need to stop trying to topple WoW and do not try to "out WoW" WoW. Make your own damn game. Make it different, make it fun and make it interesting. People who played WoW for years do not want to switch to a WoW Clone.

Develpers need to stop trying to hit 10M customers and go back to aiming for a good base of 250-500k active subscribers. I'd rather have 10 different MMO's to choose from that are all different and have healthy players bases, than the 1 massive 10M game and 10 clones of said game.

I have found this thread to be very interesting and the equal spread on the response indicates this is a very viable discussion.

I am sure that there will be another MMO eventually that will be a bigger success then even the massive WoW. I have noticed just in last several years how more widely accepted gaming is and how more people are invovled in it. The introduction of the Wii has introduced gaming to more households then ever before. Even my Mother in-law got one. She does not really play it though.

The audience is ever increasing on both the Console and PC arena and games have the greater potential to sell more just due to demographics. If an MMO is able to successfully play on a PC and Console without degredation on the experience then the potential buyers would increase substantially. In many ways, consoles are becoming more like computers so it should become easier to accomplish in the future.