Will the Secret Service walk the yard with Donny boy?

Viper1j

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What happens if an ex-president goes to jail (hypothetically speaking)? It wouldn't be pretty
What will happen if a certain former president faces a criminal trial? History's answer is clear: Nothing good

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The United States has never had a president go to prison. Neither a sitting president, nor a former one. Arguably there are a few who should have — although that's another matter.

Donald Trump could change that. Perhaps that's not surprising: Trump will already be remembered by history as the first president to be impeached twice, the first president to refuse to accept losing an election, the first president to lack any prior political or military experience and one of five presidents to be elected without winning the popular vote. He has racked up questionable distinctions like Tom Brady wins Super Bowl rings.

Now Trump may face jail time for alleged financial crimes in New York — or his efforts to overturn the 2020 election in Georgia, or his speech to the Jan. 6 rioters. Given his pattern of ethically iffy business dealings and ripping off the taxpayers, as well as his shady actions in Russia and Ukraine, something completely unforeseen could also arise during current investigations that lands him in jail.

At any rate, if Trump goes to prison, it will be a first in the history of this country. What, if anything, does that say about the state of our democracy?

We can start by looking at the closest equivalents to Trump's situation, which occurred shortly after the Civil War. Without question the most volatile such case was the potential trial of Jefferson Davis, who had been president of the Confederacy and intended to argue that he did nothing illegal by siding with Mississippi once it seceded. (Whether the Confederate States of America counts as a real nation, and Davis as a real president, is a contested question.) Given that the Civil War had ended only a few years earlier, it is entirely conceivable that Davis' trial would have sparked violence whether he was convicted. Fortunately for him, President Andrew Johnson pardoned Davis and other former leading Confederates for the crime of treason, so we don't know how such a trial would have played out.

A lesser known case — involving an authentic, no-doubt president — is that of John Tyler, who was president from 1841 to 1845, following the death of William Henry Harrison. No one ever accused Tyler of dishonesty, but he sided with his home state of Virginia when it seceded from the Union, in 1861, serving in various Confederate legislative bodies. Tyler died of a stroke early in 1862, three years before the Civil War ended, so he was never held legally accountable for his actions and there's no way to know how events would have played out. Tyler offers, however, the only clear example of a former U.S. president committing treason. (Until now, some would say.)

Around the same time that Jefferson Davis faced an uncertain legal fate, the president who pardoned him, Andrew Johnson, became the first president to be impeached, in his case by a Republican-controlled Congress that opposed his lenient policies toward the conquered South. But Johnson was charged with no crime after leaving office, whereas Richard Nixon — who resigned before he could be impeached — probably would have been had Gerald Ford not pardoned him. Bill Clinton, the second president to be impeached, was accused by his enemies of all kinds of imaginary crimes, but never faced any serious threat of criminal prosecution for any aspect of the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

So American history provides no clear or useful parallels, and we have to cast the net more widely — still without finding any obvious similar instances. One thing we can say is that a criminal conviction wouldn't necessarily end Trump's political career, and another is that the chances of an actual head of state literally winding up behind bars appear very low. Former Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi was convicted of tax fraud in 2013 — also one of Trump's more plausible crimes — and served his "prison sentence" by doing unpaid community work because of his age. Despite his conviction, Berlusconi remains a powerful figure on the Italian right and eventually returned to politics, winning election to the European Parliament in 2019.

One case very much in the news is Israel, where Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has held power for the last 12 years (after also serving as prime minister in the late '90s). He was indicted in 2019 for accepting bribes, fraud and breach of trust but has refused to leave office, clinging to power through several indecisive elections thanks to the loyalty of the Israeli right. With a new coalition government reportedly emerging this week that could end Netanyahu's tenure, the danger of conviction and prison time is now real.

Former French prime minister François Fillon could well be heading to prison — but even in France, this isn't a huge story. (In the French political system, the president holds executive power and the prime minister is perhaps closer to the House speaker in the U.S.) An old-school center-right conservative, Fillon was allied with former President Nicolas Sarkozy and was was briefly seen as the frontrunner in the 2017 presidential election (eventually won by Emmanuel Macron). After Fillon was charged with embezzlement, his political fortunes collapsed, and last year he was finally convicted of fraud and misusing funds. He was sentenced to five years in prison, with three of them suspended, and is currently appealing his sentence.

What lessons have we learned about the prospect of Donald Trump ending up in a prison jumpsuit? Pretty much none. Trump is perhaps vaguely similar to the examples of Berlusconi, Netanyahu and Davis in that he has a passionate following, and leads a movement that is unwaveringly devoted to him as an individual. As with Berlusconi and Netanyahu, his supporters are unlikely to abandon him even if he is indicted or convicted. If anything, a criminal trial might turn him into a martyr, and increase his followers' sense persecution, emboldening them to do who knows what.

John Tyler, Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton never commanded that kind of slavish devotion. Nothing even close.

Consider also that there's no legal or constitutional impediment to an eligible citizen running for president while incarcerated. Trump could orchestrate a political resurrection from a prison cell, being "restored" to what his followers deem his rightful place either by legitimately being elected or (far more likely) because the recent wave of voter suppression laws enacted by Republicans create a situation where he can't lose. Much as Hitler proclaimed his ascension to power as a vindication of the nine months he served in prison after the Beer Hall Putsch, Trump's miraculous election-from-prison would be embraced by his followers as proof that it was all worth it. Most of them would shy away from the Hitler parallels, of course — but some, if QAnon rhetoric is to be believed, may not.

If Trump is actually put on trial, it will become a spectacle unlike any other in American history. Any possible verdict — acquittal, conviction or mistrial — will be received by his supporters as a great victory. No matter what happens, such a trial would serve as a flashpoint for a far-right, anti-democratic movement the likes of which has never before existed in this country. On balance, that sounds really bad.
 
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woolfe9998

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If Trump is actually put on trial, it will become a spectacle unlike any other in American history. Any possible verdict — acquittal, conviction or mistrial — will be received by his supporters as a great victory. No matter what happens, such a trial would serve as a flashpoint for a far-right, anti-democratic movement the likes of which has never before existed in this country. On balance, that sounds really bad.

I don't agree with that final assessment, because I think there is greater danger in Trump remaining free than there is from any political backlash resulting from putting him in jail.

Unfortunately I do agree with the article that Trump is in fact unlikely to ever see the inside of a prison cell.
 
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kage69

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He'd get his own section in Leavenworth for what remains of his sad miserable life. Should be worse given what he's done to the country and those in it.

No man is above the law, and no man can be his own judge. Public opinion on that is irrelevant.
 
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sportage

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Donald MUST get elected (re-elected, whatever) ASAP so he can claim the presidential immunity clause like he did before. If not, his ass is grass. And do expect Donald to run in 2024 for only to protect his ass from the law. And he will outright plea to his people to "please elect me so I won't go to prison". Yes, it will be sad watching Donald beg for mercy, and votes, as he seeks to save his ass from prosecution.
 

Viper1j

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Donald MUST get elected (re-elected, whatever) ASAP so he can claim the presidential immunity clause like he did before. If not, his ass is grass. And do expect Donald to run in 2024 for only to protect his ass from the law. And he will outright plea to his people to "please elect me so I won't go to prison". Yes, it will be sad watching Donald beg for mercy, and votes, as he seeks to save his ass from prosecution.

I don't know.

Is it possible to run for election (or reelection) from Rikers island?
 

Commodus

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Oct 9, 2004
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I don't know.

Is it possible to run for election (or reelection) from Rikers island?

Technically you can... but whether or not it's a good idea is another matter.

Yes, there would be a contingent of dutiful Trump drones who would vote for him even if he spent the rest of his life in prison, even if the evidence against him was obvious. But it'd be hara-kiri for Republicans to back him, even if they leaned on the Trump-is-a-martyr angle.
 

Viper1j

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Technically you can... but whether or not it's a good idea is another matter.

Yes, there would be a contingent of dutiful Trump drones who would vote for him even if he spent the rest of his life in prison, even if the evidence against him was obvious. But it'd be hara-kiri for Republicans to back him, even if they leaned on the Trump-is-a-martyr angle.

John Gotti ran his crime family while he was behind bars. His son was the day-to-day face. But Gotti's ascendancy, his "inauguration" as it were, was nothing more than making sure his boss was dead.

How would Trump run the entire country from behind bars? What would his inauguration look like? Does he make Don Junior his capo?
 

Commodus

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John Gotti ran his crime family while he was behind bars. His son was the day-to-day face. But Gotti's ascendancy, his "inauguration" as it were, was nothing more than making sure his boss was dead.

How would Trump run the entire country from behind bars? What would his inauguration look like? Does he make Don Junior his capo?

Therein lies the problem... even among Republicans, very few would likely tolerate the optics of a candidate that would have to run and possibly serve from prison. They're okay with an overtly corrupt person like Trump, but having to remind the public of that every time Trump holds a rally from his cell? Not so much.
 

thilanliyan

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Jun 21, 2005
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I'm guessing anyone still on his side will claim witch hunt if he is accused/convicted of any crime. Sad.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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Better question for the worry worts I think: what happens if we allow anyone in that office to commit treason, sedition, obstruction of justice, fraud, embezzlement, extortion and in general violate the shit out of their oaths of office without fear of real consequences?

Why is the nitty gritty of effecting punishment for a single VIP more unsavory than kissing justice and the rule of law goodbye for the foreseeable future?
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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John Gotti ran his crime family while he was behind bars. His son was the day-to-day face. But Gotti's ascendancy, his "inauguration" as it were, was nothing more than making sure his boss was dead.

How would Trump run the entire country from behind bars? What would his inauguration look like? Does he make Don Junior his capo?

Reneged on an agreement for protection with the Aryans, proceeded to get slapped around by white and black inmates alike. Dies in prison.

Just imagine the sad over here if Trump were to follow in those shoes. Kinda why he'd have a near solo Norwegian/Danish like accommodation, but still a nice day dream.
 

Viper1j

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Reneged on an agreement for protection with the Aryans, proceeded to get slapped around by white and black inmates alike. Dies in prison.

Just imagine the sad over here if Trump were to follow in those shoes. Kinda why he'd have a near solo Norwegian/Danish like accommodation, but still a nice day dream.

Nobody gets slapped around with the Secret Service protecting them.

NOBODY. Anywhere.

So it would seem that the question would be, would he have Secret Service protection in prison?
 

Leeea

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Apr 3, 2020
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Nobody gets slapped around with the Secret Service protecting them.

NOBODY. Anywhere.

So it would seem that the question would be, would he have Secret Service protection in prison?

um, ss agents are not supermen, the prison riot does not care about the name on the badge.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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I don't agree with that final assessment, because I think there is greater danger in Trump remaining free than there is from any political backlash resulting from putting him in jail.

Unfortunately I do agree with the article that Trump is in fact unlikely to ever see the inside of a prison cell.
Because President's are above the law?
 
Feb 4, 2009
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The former President is not going to jail, wealthy people don’t go to jail for financial shenanigans. They simply don’t do time for this unless it is Leona Helmsley or Martha Stewart and both of them had bitchy images at the time.
Yes Madoff went to jail but he screwed people not the IRS.
Personally I do not want to open Pandora’s Box by jailing a former President.


**as info comes out my opinion may change**
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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The former President is not going to jail, wealthy people don’t go to jail for financial shenanigans. They simply don’t do time for this unless it is Leona Helmsley or Martha Stewart and both of them had bitchy images at the time.
Yes Madoff went to jail but he screwed people not the IRS.
Personally I do not want to open Pandora’s Box by jailing a former President.


**as info comes out my opinion may change**
Unfortunately people like Eric Garner get killed for it.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
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That we're even discussing the possibility of having ex-president Trump incarcerated for crimes he's committed including the high crime of sedition is sobering yet remarkable in the sense that we have the freedoms to do so unlike Russia, China, North Korea and those other authoritarian states 'round the world.

On the flip side of things, those very freedoms have given the Repub party leadership the ability to freely and with no consequence lie, obfuscate, falsely accuse, spread blatantly false conspiracy theories and legislate restrictive voting laws with the specific intent of denying certain people their ability to excercise their constitutional right to hold and participate in free and fair elections.

As has been noted in alarming fashion the more the GOP feels threatened, the more they are going to push back and delve in practices that violate the very tenets of the laws they swore to uphold. We've all seen what happens when many members of said party buy into those lies and misrepresentations they've been fed that culminated in an insurrection. Repeat: An INSURRECTION, of which unsurprizingly did not raise calls of protests among their party and their leaders other than those lame excuses that's been trickling out from some of Trump's sycophant lackeys in Congress.

This is new and unexplored terrritory we're stepping into and the only check on the Repub's efforts at destroying our democracy in order to seize control of the nation are those folks who stand for democracy and the Constitution because the Repubs have seemingly abandoned both in their efforts at seizing control of the nation through deception and outright treasonous means.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
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I don't agree with that final assessment, because I think there is greater danger in Trump remaining free than there is from any political backlash resulting from putting him in jail.

Unfortunately I do agree with the article that Trump is in fact unlikely to ever see the inside of a prison cell.
I don't care as long as he muzzled, and is not allowed to participate in politics as part of the bargain. Civil suites will relieve him of his wealth.
 

Viper1j

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Jul 31, 2018
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I don't care as long as he muzzled, and is not allowed to participate in politics as part of the bargain. Civil suites will relieve him of his wealth.

Seems so...


Trump furious over massive legal fees as investigations heat up: report
"I think he's so angry. All the things that he put in place ... all of a sudden are not there anymore"

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According to a report from Business Insider, former president Donald Trump is growing increasingly furious over his mounting legal fees stemming from a multitude of lawsuits as well as state and federal investigations into his business dealings.

With reports of a special grand jury having been empaneled in New York City to hear evidence from prosecutors looking into the ex-president taxes and business dealings -- as well as civil suits filed against Trump and his family -- the one-term president has told aids that his legal bills are "such pain in the ass."

According to Business Insider, "The former president is reportedly frustrated with the investigations because of the possible legal peril they bring and the financial costs attached to them," quoting the Daily Beast reporting, "The former president is reportedly also worried that investigators could drag the case out for years."

During an interview on MSNBC on Saturday afternoon, former Trump Organization Executive Vice President Barbara Res told host Alex Witt, "I think he's so angry. All the things that he put in place, the things he put in place to get elected the first time and almost get elected the second time, both were unreasonably based, and all the other things, the attorney general and the kinds of -- the judges and all the things that he thought he had working for him all of a sudden are not there anymore. it's -- he can't avoid this. This happened and this is something he thought he could avoid."

Business Insider also is reporting, "Trump has still not paid [former New York Mayor Rudy] Giuliani for his work and instructed his aides not to pay the legal fees because he was upset that Giuliani had not done more to push back against his second impeachment that month."