Will the coin mining bubble kill off PC Gaming?

[whm1974]

I'm thinking that high prices of dGPU caused by this damn coin mining could finally do what game consoles could never do, namely kill PC Gaming at least for AAA games, as us mere mortals will not be able to afford purchasing video cards anymore.

I sure hope I'm wrong about this and wish the Pozai Scheme will collapse soon instead of later. Anyone agree or disagree? What can we do to prevent the death of PC Gaming?

 

[Stg-Flame]

You're being overly dramatic. Nothing can kill off PC gaming and nothing will stop AAA games from being made and sold. You'll always have those people who upgrade their PCs the moment the new hardware hits the market and the rest of us will just have to wait a bit longer when doing new builds or upgrading the GPUs. Prices going up isn't the end of the world.

 

[ImpulsE69]

I think we are a dying breed though...but I'll probably be old and not able to play them before that happens

 

[VirtualLarry]

While I realize that coin-mining is the immediate and notable bogeyman, truth be told, GPU prices would have increased substantially anyways.

1) Total overall sales numbers for PCs are downward, although not among "enthusiasts" and "gamers". Translation, PC Gamers are a dying breed, except for those of us oldies and die-hards.

2) Because of that, neccessarily, prices would have to increase, to maintain R&D spending, to keep "neat-o tech" in the pipeline for gamers.

3) Mining purchases, although they are causing shortages at retailers, are actually GOOD, longer-term, as it means that the market for dGPUs is larger, mostly mitigating the loss of volume from #1, and slowing the rise of prices due to #2.

Note carefully, that we haven't really seen MSRPs increasing wildly, as we've seen retailer prices being gouged.

I didn't think much of the 3rd-party sellers gouging, as Newegg would release shipments at near-MSRP prices, but that's no longer true, as Newegg is 1st-party goughing now, with RX 580 @ $430+.

In theory, GPU makers and AIB companies, could shrink the "mining demand bubble", easily. Just produce MORE cards. Thus, the hashrate of teh network(s) goes up, the difficulty goes through the roof, and thus, profits plummet, and people want to get out of mining again, thus GPUs are cheap for gamers again.

By not meeting demand, these producers are actually maintaining the mining bubble. And why not? They're getting more for every GPU sold. (Well, if the producers started raising MSRPs, which I don't believe that they've done - yet.)

 

[whm1974]

You're being overly dramatic. Nothing can kill off PC gaming and nothing will stop AAA games from being made and sold. You'll always have those people who upgrade their PCs the moment the new hardware hits the market and the rest of us will just have to wait a bit longer when doing new builds or upgrading the GPUs. Prices going up isn't the end of the world.

The problem isn't that prices have gone up, but that they increase by a huge amount and with cards being out of stock.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Interestingly, this article came out today....which I think is a joke because I am pretty sure they purposely keep production low to keep prices up.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/50a...7e3e2a1c78d/ss_nvidia-is-asking-graphics.html

 

[Zenoth]

People, gamers will adapt for the time being, and will do so for the long term if the coin mining stuff keeps affecting the prices for months (or even years) to come.

It won't stop the rich from buying if they wanted to anyway. But the people on budget for mid to low end hardware will simply wait for components to get on sale, or will look for second hand / refurbished purchases. Right now I think that coin mining affecting graphics cards prices is a form of 'testing the waters' on the part of those who do that. They're checking if it's a profitable enough 'market' (the PC hardware one that is). If the answer is yes, then people will adapt to the changes I'm sure. If the answer is "not really worth the trouble" then prices will be back to normal at some point, even though some coin miners will still try it from time to time.

I don't like that it's happening to begin with, but ultimately I do believe that people will adapt and find ways or just be patient to acquire the hardware they want if initial prices are too high.

The only thing I'd like to see happen is that if coin mining in and of itself negatively affects sales of Nvidia and AMD hardware that they'd both take measures and actions to fight it, not only to fight the very practice itself of coin mining, but to find the source of their problems (the miners themselves, be it groups or individuals). As far as I know coin mining isn't illegal at least not in North America and probably not in Europe either. However, it doesn't mean that big companies will remain passive about it forever if it comes down to affecting their profits and their products sales.

 

[whm1974]

If dGPUs prices were normal and not out of stock often, then I along with others wouldn't be complaining about mining.

 

[aigomorla]

no because all those cards needs to be resold, so if anything people will be getting killer deals on second hand GPU's.

 

[whm1974]

no because all those cards needs to be resold, so if anything people will be getting killer deals on second hand GPU's.

Which been rode hard and put away wet. And besides I'm not going to pay full MSRP for a used card that might die shortly after I buy it.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The only thing I'd like to see happen is that if coin mining in and of itself negatively affects sales of Nvidia and AMD hardware that they'd both take measures and actions to fight it, not only to fight the very practice itself of coin mining, but to find the source of their problems (the miners themselves, be it groups or individuals). As far as I know coin mining isn't illegal at least not in North America and probably not in Europe either. However, it doesn't mean that big companies will remain passive about it forever if it comes down to affecting their profits and their products sales.

Your mix of SJW-style "gamer angst" is quite humorous.

You really want AMD and NV, to "track down miners"? And do what with them? Why is mining any less valid use of a GPU than gaming? And how does mining negatively affect profits? It appears that it is doing the opposite, right now.

 

[VirtualLarry]

If dGPUs prices were normal and not out of stock often, then I along with others wouldn't be complaining about mining.

Quite frankly, I put *all* the blame on the mfgs.

 

[whm1974]

Quite frankly, I put *all* the blame on the mfgs.

And don't forget the third party scalpers, as they share the blame as well.

 

[IEC]

Everyone on the purchasing side is complaining about prices, including miners and people who do Distributed Computing projects like Folding@Home.

Somehow I doubt AMD and nVidia actually care to correct the supply problem, given that they have apparently been raking in record profits on dGPUs with it being hard to keep cards in stock and on retailers' shelves.

 

[VirtualLarry]

And don't forget the third party scalpers, as they share the blame as well.

I don't. There's always opportunists around.

But look at what happened with the Nintendo SNES Classic release? There were TONS of units on ebay, selling from all of the would-be scalpers, at BELOW MSRP. Why? Enough supply from the mfg.

I still blame the mfgs, they're probably scheming on how to keep this mining bubble going indefinitely.

 

[whm1974]

I don't. There's always opportunists around.

But look at what happened with the Nintendo SNES Classic release? There were TONS of units on ebay, selling from all of the would-be scalpers, at BELOW MSRP. Why? Enough supply from the mfg.

I still blame the mfgs, they're probably scheming on how to keep this mining bubble going indefinitely.

Is Nintendo is still making those? I was going to buy one, but they were sold out.

 

[Zenoth]

Your mix of SJW-style "gamer angst" is quite humorous.

You really want AMD and NV, to "track down miners"? And do what with them? Why is mining any less valid use of a GPU than gaming? And how does mining negatively affect profits? It appears that it is doing the opposite, right now.

I said if. IF if affected their profits negatively, that I think they'd do something about it.

I don't pretend it does somehow negatively affect their profits. If it doesn't and Nvidia laughs while they swim in their money then alright, "normal" people and gamers will adapt. If it does, however, then I'd like to see them take action. But you're right, how would it affect their profits, they sell their cards after all, right? But I do think that Nvidia understands the importance of [fair] availability of their products at 'normal' prices for all their markets / audience. Their cards aren't specifically made for coin mining, their cards are for 'everyone' and 'gamers' and 'enthusiasts', and well they're graphics card. Do we suddenly have to ignore that we're usually considering such cards for gamers per se? Yeah, they're 'gaming cards' is what I like to call them myself. Are data / coin miners 'gamers'? Do they also use their cards for gaming or video editing or what have you, other than coin mining? This is probably pushing it too far and since I'm mostly a gamer I'm not understanding all of this properly, but why wouldn't Nvidia and AMD just actually make cards specifically for 'mining' then? And make those would-be specific cards for mining simply not viable for actual PC gaming, or not viable for gaming on Windows systems, etc. Make them not use DirectX or something, dunno, a major road block that would force coin miners to stay in their corner playing their price games among themselves in their little world, and leave gamers alone, wouldn't that be feasible?

Anyway, since I'm a gamer and since I do plan to buy a graphics card later this year (probably a 1070) then the only thing I can do about it is to wait and see if things get back to normal "on their own" (somehow, but that's wishful thinking I know; I'm not that naive), or wait for good deals, or last options would be check for refurbished or second hand units. I mean geez, wouldn't it be cool if people could plain and simple just behave huh? You want to do coin mining with your 1080? Fine, buy one and do your coin mining, and leave everyone else alone, no? Yeah no... humans and money, quite the story.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

How long should it take to get supply back for current generation? Will resupply of current gen take place long before they end up launching 2000 series?

 

[postmortemIA]

If I understand this right, mining will keep getting more and more expensive for miners, to a point that they'll need a future generation of GFX cards, then demand for this current gen will go down. Nice cash infusion for AMD and nvidia to keep going.

No scam goes forever... spending a year worth of electricity for a whole country for transactions seems like the end is near.

 

[VirtualLarry]

but why wouldn't Nvidia and AMD just actually make cards specifically for 'mining' then? And make those would-be specific cards for mining simply not viable for actual PC gaming, or not viable for gaming on Windows systems, etc. Make them not use DirectX or something, dunno, a major road block that would force coin miners to stay in their corner playing their price games among themselves in their little world, and leave gamers alone, wouldn't that be feasible?

While I would support the introduction of a separate line of "mining" and "gaming" cards, in theory, in practice, it fractures an otherwise already somewhat-small market even further, and leaves the GPU and AIB mfgs in an even worse spot, if they have unsold mining AND gaming cards. Plus, if they leave off the video outputs (Gigabyte doesn't do that) on their "mining" cards, then they don't have resale value.

I mean geez, wouldn't it be cool if people could plain and simple just behave huh? You want to do coin mining with your 1080? Fine, buy one and do your coin mining, and leave everyone else alone, no? Yeah no... humans and money, quite the story.

What do you mean, "behave"? Neither miners nor gamers are breaking any laws, that I know of, in acquiring cards (assuming that they pay for them to the retailer, etc.). Both groups are acting in their "rational self-interest" (the "Invisible Hand" at work, etc.). It's really down to a supply problem, which is on the mfg.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Are there any benefits to this? I mean yea, stocks are depleted and it sucks right now, but could the sudden windfall of demand drive R&D at either AMD or Nvidia that moves tech forward in subsequent generations?

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Crypto needs to go away. Its a ponzi scheme imo. Also as another poster pointed out It's consuming as much energy as a small country. You miners should be ashamed of yourselves. You're selling out the environment for peanuts. At least the big oil guys you despise are actually selling our futures out for some actual cash. I read about people looking to make $400 back over several months. lol. Get a part time job and quit polluting the Damn world.

 

[whm1974]

Crypto needs to go away. Its a ponzi scheme imo. Also as another poster pointed out It's consuming as much energy as a small country. You miners should be ashamed of yourselves. You're selling out the environment for peanuts. At least the big oil guys you despise are actually selling our futures out for some actual cash. I read about people looking to make $400 back over several months. lol. Get a part time job and quit polluting the Damn world.

The Ponzi Scheme and the fact of wasteful energy usage are other issues I also have with coin mining as well.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Crypto needs to go away. Its a ponzi scheme imo. Also as another poster pointed out It's consuming as much energy as a small country. You miners should be ashamed of yourselves. You're selling out the environment for peanuts. At least the big oil guys you despise are actually selling our futures out for some actual cash. I read about people looking to make $400 back over several months. lol. Get a part time job and quit polluting the Damn world.

That $400/mo could have been one of my comments. Anyways, it's winter here in the Northeast USA, so my PCs heat my apt. Since my apt. has electric heat, the PCs offset that (the heater basically don't come on, unless it's below 0F outside). So, no extra power wasted. Now when summer comes along, you might have a valid arguement. Although, my apt., has a limit on the amount of power I can draw through my 20A circuit, and the AC is on the same circuit, so I probably won't be able to run all of the PCs, or maybe I can, because now I have more efficient, lower-powered video cards in most of them as compared to last year.

And what about those data-centers, filled with racks and racks of GPUs, for cloud computing? Aren't those facilities equally at fault for "polluting the environment" as "miners" are? Should we shut down the cloud-computing data centers, just because of the environment? Considering the advances in solar recently, electricity is getting cheaper as a resource.

 

[sandorski]

No.