Will Nvidia Project Denver Succeed?

[Dribble]

Interesting bit of comment on it:
http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...r-is-a-64-bit-arm-processor-architecture.aspx

This suggests they have 2 initial aims with this:
1) remove the need for AMD or Intel x86 cpus altogether in telsa gpu supercomputers.
2) get it to become the cpu of a next gen console.

 

[nonameo]

I don't know if it will be profitable or not, but I certainly think it is a step in the right direction. People throw away computers now, no need for it to be upgradeable or all that powerful.

 

[RobertPters77]

No way Jim.

Nvidia may make a good gpu. But no architecture can really compete with x86.

Look at PowerPC and Core 2. When the new line of C2D macs were released, Clock for Clock, Core 2 macs wiped the floor with PowerPC macs in the same benchmarks with similar system specs.

I'm not a mac user myself but there's no doubting an apples to apples comparison.

 

[RobertPters77]

2. Nvidia AFAIK doesn't have any presence for future gaming consoles (Rumors from Feb 2009 claim Intel has won the graphics contract for Sony PS4)

Intel Graphics? No fucking way. I'll believe a heterogeneous AMD cpu + gpu combo for the the Next Xbox. But no way in hell do I believe in Intel graphics for the PS3. Btw isn't that what Microsoft originally wanted to do with the original Xbox? Have one supplier for both the cpu and gpu? But because Intel graphics were shit back then they had to go with nvidia? And since Amd has it's foot in the door in the console business, chances are the PS4 might be a heterogeneous AMD machine too.

Also didn't MS and Sony decide to go with IBM cpu's because they didn't want users installing windows on their consoles?

 

[taltamir]

No way Jim.

Nvidia may make a good gpu. But no architecture can really compete with x86.

Look at PowerPC and Core 2. When the new line of C2D macs were released, Clock for Clock, Core 2 macs wiped the floor with PowerPC macs in the same benchmarks with similar system specs.

I'm not a mac user myself but there's no doubting an apples to apples comparison.

Macs use intel CPUs nowadays. And ARM is verry different to x86.
Heck, even intel themselves have an architecture superior to x86, its called IA64. A superior chip =! a superior architecture. Intel has a large production advantage that they are not afraid to leverage. And even a worse off architecture can be tweaked and prodded to a higher degree.
Besides, nvidia is targetting servers, it doesn't need to be faster in a single socket, it needs to be more power efficient. And x86 can even come close to the power efficiency of ARM

 

[Nemesis 1]

A decided advantage for Intel is their access to leading edge process technology. A decided disadvantage for Intel is that their gross-margin directive prevents them from putting that leading edge process tech into all their products (look at the lag in Atom and Itanium) on a release timeline that is competitive relative to the competition.

This is true IDC . But its really not correct thing to put Atom/ Itanic on the same playiing field.

Lets take Atom . Oaktrail . Everyone is saying zacata well destroy Atom . But oaktrail is atom with the base model using 2 cores of the Imagination 543 variety and the highend using the 4 core model . In a tablet thats going to be impressive for sure. As for Cpu improvements Robert hasn't said anything to me about it . But the IGP he states only that its going to shook people back to reality. So Nv has its work cut out . But they did get me to buy the 580 .But thats more because ATI no longer exist.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Macs use intel CPUs nowadays. And ARM is verry different to x86.
Heck, even intel themselves have an architecture superior to x86, its called IA64. A superior chip =! a superior architecture. Intel has a large production advantage that they are not afraid to leverage. And even a worse off architecture can be tweaked and prodded to a higher degree.
Besides, nvidia is targetting servers, it doesn't need to be faster in a single socket, it needs to be more power efficient. And x86 can even come close to the power efficiency of ARM

Oak trail is 3 watts in its base model . So by the time NV comes with anything server intel will be @32nm with atom by 2011 . Atom is already being used in servers and for arm to compete they will use more power to compete . Its going to be an interesting show for fact

 

[SickBeast]

I think for tablets, Denver is going to kick ass. Having a 4 core CPU paired with a decent GPU on such a small system will be amazing.

Compared to desktop CPUs, though, Denver is going to be really slow. It's going to take a few more generations before they can compete in that realm performance wise.

 

[Dribble]

I think you miss the point a bit when you just say the cpu will be ARM and the gpu nvidia. They clearly want to go beyond that. It's much more like the PS3 cell - only swap the power pc core for arm, and the SPE's for nvidia cuda compute cores. i.e. the arm's are largely there just to drive the cuda cores. Unlike the cell expect the cuda compute cores to be much more capable then the cell's spe's, and instead of having one overworked power pc core they'll add as many arm cores as required. Also unlike the cell the cuda cores will of course be able to do graphics very well too.

For super computers it's just a simplification of what they already have - instead of having a x86 cpu, and separately a load of nvidia gpu's they can simplify this to just having a load of combined nvidia cpu/gpu's - almost like what intel/amd did to nvidia in the desktop in reverse. Instead of keeping the cpu and integrating the graphics they've keep the gpu and integrated the cpu.

For consoles - well a super cell that can do graphics and cpu and parallel compute and everything else all on one chip is bound to interest sony.

 

[wahdangun]

the success of nvdia project denver CPU relies on how far MS will support arm in their CPU or how far android will become new windows on mobile market.

if one of that possibilities are true no doubt nvdia will be success, but I'm doubt MS will be key success for nvdia "denver"

 

[taltamir]

the success of nvdia project denver CPU relies on how far MS will support arm in their CPU

How far MS will support ARM? they can't just partially support it or windows 8 on ARM will not work. I guess they could cut out MS programs like IE and media player but I find it highly unlikely... Nor will it be a big loss.
No, its not MS support that is the issue it is the "Everyone else" support.
You notice how you need to get an x86_32 OR an x86_64 driver / version of your program? with x86_64 it has built in hardware support for x86_32 emulation allowing you to run x86_32 programs on a x86_64 CPU natively. nVidia cannot do that for legal reasons, as such every single windows program that you want to run on an ARM CPU has to be ported over to Windows ARM.
You want to run assassin creed 2 on it? well you need to get a recompiled Win8 ARM version. You want to run iTunes? gotta get an ARM version. Want to plug a printer? Gotta get its ARM driver. Etc.

or how far android will become new windows on mobile market.

that already happened

 

[wahdangun]

How far MS will support ARM? they can't just partially support it or windows 8 on ARM will not work. I guess they could cut out MS programs like IE and media player but I find it highly unlikely... Nor will it be a big loss.
No, its not MS support that is the issue it is the "Everyone else" support.
You notice how you need to get an x86_32 OR an x86_64 driver / version of your program? with x86_64 it has built in hardware support for x86_32 emulation allowing you to run x86_32 programs on a x86_64 CPU natively. nVidia cannot do that for legal reasons, as such every single windows program that you want to run on an ARM CPU has to be ported over to Windows ARM.
You want to run assassin creed 2 on it? well you need to get a recompiled Win8 ARM version. You want to run iTunes? gotta get an ARM version. Want to plug a printer? Gotta get its ARM driver. Etc.


that already happened

the thing is windows is almost the facto standard for office and average joe used to windows than any other OS, so if MS can do android (android even support X86 now) in windows 8 (maybe something like .net ???), but i think MS can do it without that they just only release different version of windows, like winows 8 arm edition ?? just like now, we have 64 and 32 bit version.


i mean android in laptop and portable computer not cellphone

 

[Dribble]

Personally I think MS are going to try and take on android with windows 8 - in that as well as supporting old fashioned desktops/notbooks it'll also support arm tablets. I think that's what they have in mind when they say they will support ARM - they see small touch devices are the way the market is going and don't want to give it all away to google.

Not sure denver really fits into that - it's a gpu compute monster, very different to an arm powered tablet.

 

[snarfbot]

mmm, i dunno, they pretty much already layed all the ground work with cuda, and with windows 8 headed for arm, theyre all set.

just gotta get the game developers on board, and they can make their own pc segment.

because seriously, even the lowliest of pc's these days is more than adequate for the vast majority of workloads people are throwing at them. the whole trend toward netbooks and tablets is a testament to that.

the only thing left to harness all the power that current tech allows, are videogames, video encoding, photo editing, that kinda stuff, most of which is perfectly suited to running on a gpu.

provided they dont splinter it into several tiers of skus. it could end up being a nice stable platform to develop on. possibly filling the niche left by amiga way back when.

anyway very exciting stuff, and i for one am rooting for em.

 

[taltamir]

the thing is windows is almost the facto standard for office and average joe used to windows than any other OS, so if MS can do android (android even support X86 now) in windows 8 (maybe something like .net ???), but i think MS can do it without that they just only release different version of windows, like winows 8 arm edition ?? just like now, we have 64 and 32 bit version.

What are you talking about, and what does it have to do with what I said? I was explaining how support works and why:

1. MS cannot partially support Arm
2. Why its not the core OS but the "everyone else" support that matters.

 

[Nemesis 1]

As arm tries to scale up in power performance . Intel is scaling down its energy usage . Buy the time NV gets a fair notebook product Intel will be out with IB at very low V. In that segment . Arm will beable to compete on price and price only.

 

[taltamir]

As arm tries to scale up in power performance . Intel is scaling down its energy usage . Buy the time NV gets a fair notebook product Intel will be out with IB at very low V. In that segment . Arm will beable to compete on price and price only.

or maybe arm will overtake intel, remaining the sole contender for the growing phone and tablet markets, and pushing into laptops and budgets desktops.

 

[lol123]

or maybe arm will overtake intel, remaining the sole contender for the growing phone and tablet markets, and pushing into laptops and budgets desktops.

I would say that's highly unlikely. There's an excellent article about this subject at Real World Technologies site (specifically about the case of Apple switching its notebook line, but it raises some general points also).

 

[Lonbjerg]

or maybe arm will overtake intel, remaining the sole contender for the growing phone and tablet markets, and pushing into laptops and budgets desktops.

You are forgetting something.
Ever sold ARM mobile is money to Intel too.
Why?
Well, you need a server for ~600 mobile.

Guess what CPU is located in that server?
A good guess would be a Intel CPU.

People who think that ARM will overtake Intel makes me smile.

 

[taltamir]

You are forgetting something.
Ever sold ARM mobile is money to Intel too.
Why?
Well, you need a server for ~600 mobile.

Guess what CPU is located in that server?
A good guess would be a Intel CPU.

Or an AMD one, or an ARM one (emerging). and 1 CPU per 600 mobile doesn't mean that arm cannot overtake intel. it is not enough to significantly alter the figures

I also said "maybe", as in "we cannot predict the future"... its a possibility, one of many others.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Or an AMD one, or an ARM one (emerging). and 1 CPU per 600 mobile doesn't mean that arm cannot overtake intel. it is not enough to significantly alter the figures

I also said "maybe", as in "we cannot predict the future"... its a possibility, one of many others.

You do know the marketshare in servers right?

To mention ARM in that perspective makes me laugh.

 

[pruitts]

Depends on your definition of success...

As arm tries to scale up in power performance . Intel is scaling down its energy usage . Buy the time NV gets a fair notebook product Intel will be out with IB at very low V. In that segment . Arm will beable to compete on price and price only.
or maybe arm will overtake intel, remaining the sole contender for the growing phone and tablet markets, and pushing into laptops and budgets desktops.




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