Will Lots of Idling Hurt My Car?

Roger,
The cylinders, etc. are lubed as soon as the engine starts running. The whole engine has plenty of oil flow before you can engage the trans in gear.
Rings are splash-fed, which happens as soon as the car starts.
Lifters are pressure-fed, which happens as soon as you start the engine.
The valves and guides are splash-oiled, but it's not like they go dry when you shut the engine off.

They are not splash fred until the oil warms up, do this, go out and take a quart of any brand 10-30 weight oil, put that quart of oil in the freezer for a couple of hours, then pour it out into a container.

Se how viscous it is, this thick oil cannot be splash up in between the pistons/cylinders, piston pins etc, the bottom of the lifters where they contact the camshaft lobes are not pressure fed, they are splash fed.

I have been building engines for close to twenty five years now, trust me when I say that these parts are splash fed and they do not get adequate lubrication during a cold start up.

Now this scenario is very different in warm weather, the oil is much thinner upon a cold start up.

I work in the service dept. of one of the largest Ford dealers in the country.

You are not an Automotive Technician ?

Here are my credentials ;

A.S.E. Certified Master Tech

I have worked for the following in my lifetime ;

Acura/Honda
Buick
Chevy
Saab
Rolls Royce
Pontiac
Toyota

All as a Automotive Technician

As a engine rebuilder I have worked at the following ;

Automotive engineering
Scynto Automotive
Mack Truck
Greco Automotive

I also run my own repair shop.


I find it very insulting to me when you question my A.S.E. credentials, stick to what you know best, dealing with customers.

 

[Quixfire]

Originally posted by: Roger

Roger,
The cylinders, etc. are lubed as soon as the engine starts running. The whole engine has plenty of oil flow before you can engage the trans in gear.
Rings are splash-fed, which happens as soon as the car starts.
Lifters are pressure-fed, which happens as soon as you start the engine.
The valves and guides are splash-oiled, but it's not like they go dry when you shut the engine off.

They are not splash fred until the oil warms up, do this, go out and take a quart of any brand 10-30 weight oil, put that quart of oil in the freezer for a couple of hours, then pour it out into a container.

Se how viscous it is, this thick oil cannot be splash up in between the pistons/cylinders, piston pins etc, the bottom of the lifters where they contact the camshaft lobes are not pressure fed, they are splash fed.

I have been building engines for close to twenty five years now, trust me when I say that these parts are splash fed and they do not get adequate lubrication during a cold start up.

Now this scenario is very different in warm weather, the oil is much thinner upon a cold start up.

I work in the service dept. of one of the largest Ford dealers in the country.

You are not an Automotive Technician ?

Here are my credentials ;

A.S.E. Certified Master Tech

I have worked for the following in my lifetime ;

Acura/Honda
Buick
Chevy
Saab
Rolls Royce
Pontiac
Toyota

All as a Automotive Technician

As a engine rebuilder I have worked at the following ;

Automotive engineering
Scynto Automotive
Mack Truck
Greco Automotive

I also run my own repair shop.


I find it very insulting to me when you question my A.S.E. credentials, stick to what you know best, dealing with customers.

I will back up Roger on his statement; even though he doesn't need it, and I am also a Ford Certified Mechanic with 8 years Ford training under my belt. Even today modern oils still flow like molasses when near or at freezing temperatures. It take up to 30 seconds for 5w30 motor at 0 degrees to reach the valvetrain, 10w30 can take as long as 90 seconds, and 10w40 up 3 minutes.

 

[C'DaleRider]

Originally posted by: Roger

Roger,
The cylinders, etc. are lubed as soon as the engine starts running. The whole engine has plenty of oil flow before you can engage the trans in gear.
Rings are splash-fed, which happens as soon as the car starts.
Lifters are pressure-fed, which happens as soon as you start the engine.
The valves and guides are splash-oiled, but it's not like they go dry when you shut the engine off.

They are not splash fred until the oil warms up, do this, go out and take a quart of any brand 10-30 weight oil, put that quart of oil in the freezer for a couple of hours, then pour it out into a container.

Se how viscous it is, this thick oil cannot be splash up in between the pistons/cylinders, piston pins etc, the bottom of the lifters where they contact the camshaft lobes are not pressure fed, they are splash fed.

I have been building engines for close to twenty five years now, trust me when I say that these parts are splash fed and they do not get adequate lubrication during a cold start up.

Now this scenario is very different in warm weather, the oil is much thinner upon a cold start up.

I work in the service dept. of one of the largest Ford dealers in the country.

You are not an Automotive Technician ?

Here are my credentials ;

A.S.E. Certified Master Tech

I have worked for the following in my lifetime ;

Acura/Honda
Buick
Chevy
Saab
Rolls Royce
Pontiac
Toyota

All as a Automotive Technician

As a engine rebuilder I have worked at the following ;

Automotive engineering
Scynto Automotive
Mack Truck
Greco Automotive

I also run my own repair shop.


I find it very insulting to me when you question my A.S.E. credentials, stick to what you know best, dealing with customers.

Roger, I showed my brother this thread........he, too, is an ASE certified mech. and a VA state emissions/safety inspector/mechanic. He laughed out loud at Pacfanweb's comments. John is manager of a shop in the N. VA area and "moonlights" at one of the largest Mercedes/Audi/Porsche dealers in the DC area. Said the other mechs. at both places, after reading his comments, would NEVER let Pac change the air on their cars' tires, much less touch anything important.

Guess it's true........a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. 😉

 

[Pacfanweb]

The majority of my career has been as a tech, not a svc. manager.

You guys can believe what you want to believe, but millions of owners that start their cars up and drive away every day without warming up, and never have a problem is the proof in the pudding.

"I find it very insulting to me when you question my A.S.E. credentials, stick to what you know best, dealing with customers."

I am not questioning anyone's credentials, but ASE is a joke. If you've taken the tests, you know that. Not to mention I remember that on this very forum a couple of years ago, you even admitted it. It is very GM-biased.
Having a factory certification or certification from a tech school or community college is much more useful. (forgot to mention that I graduated from a community college with a cert. in automotive repair also).

That's why Ford doesn't really care if dealership techs are ASE certified or not. You get far more use out of being Ford certified.

Finally, the last thing before I sign off, I should mention that I am making my points about oil flow in cold engines based on the type weather we have here in North Carolina, which is pretty mild.
I would agree with Roger about warming an engine up in a really cold place like Minnesota or something.

"Even today modern oils still flow like molasses when near or at freezing temperatures. It take up to 30 seconds for 5w30 motor at 0 degrees to reach the valvetrain, 10w30 can take as long as 90 seconds, and 10w40 up 3 minutes. "

Bull. Show me. 30 seconds to reach the valvetrain??? Right. Maybe 3 seconds, but not 30. The 5w30 that most cars use now (Fords are now mostly using 5w20) flows IMMEDIATELY. Sure, it's a bit thicker, but it's not like it's molasses or anything. It flows just fine. Yes, it's thinner when hot, but the whole point of having the 5w30 is that it flows better when cold.
And 3 MINUTES to reach the valvetrain? Where? Antarctica? Sorry, doesn't get that cold where I live. If it took 3 minutes for oil to reach the valvetrain, that engine wouldn't last long without rattling.
Start an OHV engine up cold without the valve cover on and and you'll immediately get hosed by oil.

Roger, I realize that you are an experienced tech, as I am, too, and in extreme cold, I would agree with what you say about warming a car up for a minute or two, no doubt.
In the climate I live in, that simply isn't the case. I've seen and driven too many vehicles hundreds of thousands of miles without warming them up to believe otherwise.

 

In the climate I live in, that simply isn't the case. I've seen and driven too many vehicles hundreds of thousands of miles without warming them up to believe otherwise.

This is where you made your mistake, the whole thread has dealt with cold weather start up, not your particular vehicle in a warm climate.

 

[LordRaiden]

My other car is a jet engine. In a case like that, idling is a bad thing. But man, you should see the acceloration! 😀

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Roger

In the climate I live in, that simply isn't the case. I've seen and driven too many vehicles hundreds of thousands of miles without warming them up to believe otherwise.

This is where you made your mistake, the whole thread has dealt with cold weather start up, not your particular vehicle in a warm climate.

Exactly, it gets below freezing here, but it's not like it's -50 degrees. That was my mistake, I guess it all depends on what you mean by "cold weather".
We're hating it around here when it's 30.

 

[Mallow]

It will decrease your gas milage 😛

 

[amdskip]

It is hard on the crankshaft.

 

Exactly, it gets below freezing here, but it's not like it's -50 degrees. That was my mistake, I guess it all depends on what you mean by "cold weather".
We're hating it around here when it's 30.

It's very obvious that you do not have an open mind, even at 30F, oil will thicken to the point that the engine will not recieve proper lubrication.

I am not going to argue with you anymore, you believe what you want to believe, I am just stating the facts.

 

[ndee]

Originally posted by: Roger

Exactly, it gets below freezing here, but it's not like it's -50 degrees. That was my mistake, I guess it all depends on what you mean by "cold weather".
We're hating it around here when it's 30.

It's very obvious that you do not have an open mind, even at 30F, oil will thicken to the point that the engine will not recieve proper lubrication.

I am not going to argue with you anymore, you believe what you want to believe, I am just stating the facts.

FACTS MASTER!

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Roger
Revving a cold engine is very harmful, cold engine parts along with the high viscosity oil wears internal engine parts prematurely, remember that not only do the bearings require a constant bath in oil (Oil pressure) but so do pistons/rings, piston pins/cylinder walls, camshaft(s), lifters,pushrods (when applicable)valve stems/guides, timing chains etc.

Oil will not flow easily when cold, yes you do have high oil pressure but only to those parts that are directly fed by oil galleys, the other parts are splash lubricated, these are the parts that will wear rapidly if exposed to high internal speeds when cold.

You're right, when talking about using oils from 20 years ago. Today's oils are mult-viscosity, and it is perfectly ok to just jump in a new car, fire it up and drive off.
Note that I said, "drive off", not "do a burnout and launch at full throttle".

Today's oils will flow just fine when cold. There is no excess wear, because the bearings are still lubricated just fine. If you had metal-to-metal contact when cold, the engine wouldn't last through the winter.
No, the bearings are lubricated, and the rings are sealing just fine.
Just do a compression test on the same new car cold and hot, and you'll see. No difference.

OTOH, idling doesn't hurt a thing. You can take a car that is in good working order and never shut it off and it will be just fine.

Todays oils indeed flow better when cold, but there is still a huge difference in viscosity between 30F(even 40, 50F) and 150F. Why do you think oil pressure is so high at startup?

I think you should take your own advice and do a compression test on a cold engine that has sat for 12 hours and a warm engine that was just run for 20 minutes. It will not be the same. Even if it's only 5lbs less, you're talking about considerable leakage when you take into account the pressures seen inside the cylinder. It is everyday, common sense knowledge that you're supposed to do a compression test on a warm engine.

At least we can agree that idling certainly isn't going to hurt anything.

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Roger, it doesn't matter if the bearings are cold or not, if there is oil flowing, they are protected, period. Cylinder pressures are irrelevant, and expansion from heat is designed into the engine.

And the compression thing was directed at Eli's comment about the rings not sealing when cold, allowing excess oil contamination.

Again, on newer cars, this is not a problem.

Oil does not protect 100%, or our engines would never wear out. You do realize that we're talking about 150 year old technology here, right? Yeah.. newer engines are much better than older ones, but that does not mean these things don't need to be addressed. It just means that your engine will last that much longer if you do address them.

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Roger

Roger, it doesn't matter if the bearings are cold or not, if there is oil flowing, they are protected, period. Cylinder pressures are irrelevant, and expansion from heat is designed into the engine.

You are not taking into account the parts that are not pressure fed oil by the oil galleys, what about those ?

Why are cylinder pressures irrelevent ?
There is tremendous pressures being generated by combustion, this has no effect on the unlubed pistons and rings ?

How do you expect the pistons/rings,lifters,valves/guides etc to get proper lubrication ?

(Ipointed those out several posts back)

Roger,
The cylinders, etc. are lubed as soon as the engine starts running. The whole engine has plenty of oil flow before you can engage the trans in gear.
Rings are splash-fed, which happens as soon as the car starts.
Lifters are pressure-fed, which happens as soon as you start the engine.
The valves and guides are splash-oiled, but it's not like they go dry when you shut the engine off.

Again, idling in the morning certainly won't hurt anything, but......again, as long as you don't start the engine cold and try to turn it 6000 rpms, it won't hurt a thing to fire it up and putz on up the street.
I would certainly recommend you let it warm up a bit before driving it hard, but normal driving on a cold engine does not wear it any more than warm driving does.

If you have a race car that runs 50-weight oil, you absolutely need to warm it up. That type of oil doesn't flow well when cold, and in fact, the thickness causes a parasitic horsepower drag on the engine because it's so hard for the oil to pump.

Have you ever tried to make molasses "splash"? No? Okay.

I contend that a great ammount of engine wear is caused in the moments after startup, especially if you aren't using the proper viscosity.

All oil causes drag and reduced horsepower within an engine. That's one of the reasons we're starting to see 20 weight oils become more popular amongst auto manufactuerers, they like the 0.3mpg increase they can claim. 😉

And finally...

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
The majority of my career has been as a tech, not a svc. manager.

You guys can believe what you want to believe, but millions of owners that start their cars up and drive away every day without warming up, and never have a problem is the proof in the pudding.

"I find it very insulting to me when you question my A.S.E. credentials, stick to what you know best, dealing with customers."

I am not questioning anyone's credentials, but ASE is a joke. If you've taken the tests, you know that. Not to mention I remember that on this very forum a couple of years ago, you even admitted it. It is very GM-biased.
Having a factory certification or certification from a tech school or community college is much more useful. (forgot to mention that I graduated from a community college with a cert. in automotive repair also).

That's why Ford doesn't really care if dealership techs are ASE certified or not. You get far more use out of being Ford certified.

Finally, the last thing before I sign off, I should mention that I am making my points about oil flow in cold engines based on the type weather we have here in North Carolina, which is pretty mild.
I would agree with Roger about warming an engine up in a really cold place like Minnesota or something.

"Even today modern oils still flow like molasses when near or at freezing temperatures. It take up to 30 seconds for 5w30 motor at 0 degrees to reach the valvetrain, 10w30 can take as long as 90 seconds, and 10w40 up 3 minutes. "

Bull. Show me. 30 seconds to reach the valvetrain??? Right. Maybe 3 seconds, but not 30. The 5w30 that most cars use now (Fords are now mostly using 5w20) flows IMMEDIATELY. Sure, it's a bit thicker, but it's not like it's molasses or anything. It flows just fine. Yes, it's thinner when hot, but the whole point of having the 5w30 is that it flows better when cold.
And 3 MINUTES to reach the valvetrain? Where? Antarctica? Sorry, doesn't get that cold where I live. If it took 3 minutes for oil to reach the valvetrain, that engine wouldn't last long without rattling.
Start an OHV engine up cold without the valve cover on and and you'll immediately get hosed by oil.

Roger, I realize that you are an experienced tech, as I am, too, and in extreme cold, I would agree with what you say about warming a car up for a minute or two, no doubt.
In the climate I live in, that simply isn't the case. I've seen and driven too many vehicles hundreds of thousands of miles without warming them up to believe otherwise.

Just because you don't do it doesen't mean its not beneficial. You might be right, maybe the extra time spent isn't worth an extra 10,000 miles on a 250,000 mile engine. That's your call, though, and doesen't make the things we're saying any less true.

I agree, 5W-x oils are indeed pretty good at cold weather flowability, but oil flow is not the only issue.

In small engines(like lawnmowers), the oil viscosity when cold thing is very important. They use only splash lubrication. I use 0W-40 in all my small engines.

 

[dejitaru]

It's bad for the environment.

 

[stev0]

Originally posted by: dejitaru
It's bad for the environment.

boo hoo, he was asking if it would hurt his car, not the earth.