why would that be smart? They don't care if you can't use it on windows. Most OSS stuff is written to fill their needs and desires. You want amarok for windows, you write the port code, and submit it back to the project. You just arn't understanding that much to some people's desire, the sun does not rise and set in Redmond.
why would that be smart? They don't care if you can't use it on windows. Most OSS stuff is written to fill their needs and desires. You want amarok for windows, you write the port code, and submit it back to the project. You just arn't understanding that much to some people's desire, the sun does not rise and set in Redmond.
I was saying that's what people should do if they wanted Linux to become popular on the desktop. That they don't care if I use it on Windows hurts them, since it makes their preferred enfirnment less familiar to me.
For what it's worth, on a day-to-day basis I personally use:
SeaMonkey (runs perfectly on Linux)
Gaim (runs much better on Linux)
Xemacs (runs great on both platforms)
Winamp (XMMS is an adequate replacement - different app, but identical look & feel as long as you aren't changing settings)
OpenOffice (runs well on both platforms)
Visual Studio (deal breaker)
Games (deal breaker)
cmd.exe (tcsh is a more than adequate replacement)
What does this mean? It means that if not for the fact that I'm a programmer and a gamer, I would have my major applications already. Of course, I couldn't switch to KDE because they have severe NIH (not invented here) problems and have to write their own everything, but GNOME tends to use a lot of things I use by default. By getting other people to find apps that already run on Linux, they could more easily switch.
It would be nice to have all the OSS bussiness clients ported to windows. You switch all of your servers to OSS, then one by one switch the applications, then once you almost every application people need, you switch the OS... its a slower but much more sane switch.
I think that would be a good way to go about it. A lot of the Linux crowd says that they want to bring people over from Windows; a good way to do that would be to get them comfortable using the applications on both platforms. Than a switch of the underlying OS would be very easy.
It's simple human nature. We can take a lot of change if it comes to us one piece at a time; but if you try and make us change everything at once we're not going to like it.
My guess is yes it will. As far as "disassembling windows and implement all of the m$ code into linux"... that would be illegal, unless it was done by Microsoft, which of course they would never do (except maybe in the distant future under much different circumstances than exist today).
I think Linux WILL eventually be able to run Windows programs because just look at the progress Wine has made. Wine is only going to keep improving and eventually they are going to nail it so closely that MS's only option is to change their own api so drastically that it is not at all compatible with it's own older api, but by that time, I would guess software developers will be developing just as much for linux as they would be for MS.
I also would like to note that doornail has a good point in that cross platform applications are the real win, and spyordie007 makes a good point about the "demand followed by dollars" to persuade the ISVs.
I do.
Basically a lot of unemployed developers or college kid writing code for free so Microsoft competitors can get rich off it.
How about; "real men get paid for their code - Losers code for Free". That's my favorite.
Or, how about Linux developers actually writing apps real people will use other than another dumbass Pop mail server or Firewall, or some other stupid back-end application nobody needs.
Gee, maybe if the majority of Linux applications development were actually motivated by a real paycheck rather than the emotional desire to screw Micrsoft you'd see see better Apps on the Linux side. Beats trying to fake Windows apps into thinking they were running on Windows.
Which brings me to the question that if Windows sucks so bad according to the Linux community, and Windows application development is motived by greed and cohersion, why do you promote hacks like Wine?
Nothinman
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- Sep 14, 2001
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That would hurt Linux more than help. It would mean a lot more work on the developer side because they'd have to write, compile and test on a completely different platform so it would take away from core development. And then all of their free/OSS apps work on Windows, so why go through the extra hassle of trying Linux?
Most people don't pay $200 for Windows, it's included as part of the hardware purchase and is discounted. And the act of switching OSes is a lot of work.
They're writing it because they want to, if someone else gets rich off of it where's the problem with that?
How about more technical arguments and less ad-hominem attacks and strawmen?
You seem to be extremely confused. Most Linux developers are paid to do their coding these days and on top of that most of them couldn't give two shits about what MS is doing. Most of them are motivated to write software that they want to use, if you want to use it too that's great, if not move along quietly. Free software is a community effort, put your fingers where your mouth is and help out.
Because it's necessary to run some things like WoW? It's impossible to write a legal, free version of WoW so you have no options but to run it on Windows or in WINE. Other than odd stuff like that, no one really promotes WINE because it's an ugly hack and should only be used as a last resort.
Question:
What percentage of all programmers write software for retail sale? I mean something that will end up on a shelf at Wal*Mart or sold through Buy.com. Something that benefits from being proprietary. Before you answer, think about the banks, publishers, goverment offices, data centers, ISP's, IT centers, manufacturing plants, distributors, etc. who employ programmers. All those wage-slave coders who write custom applications never to be seen by the outside world.
I bet 90% or more of programmers are paid to write code that will not be sold and being closed source has no benefit. Those are the people who benefit from open source. That ARMY of programmers. I'm working on an in-house application in Python, served by Linux, with data stored in PostgreSQL. I get a real paycheck. My job is made easier by people who shared and my employer benefits from lower costs. I can give away my code, maybe make some other smuck's life a little easier, and the circle grows.
Who said that Windows applications developers are motivated by 'greed and cohersion'? And why do you think that most Linux developers write programs because 'emotional desire to screw Micrsoft'?
So far it seems that you say these things because your a nut. Which looks pretty accurate at this moment.
As for OSS applications being crossplatform.. Gaim/Seamonkey/etc etc. I think that this is a good thing for 'Linux' or at least the open source community.
Having Firefox and Thunderbird being used for stuff at work then made it a lot easier for me when I got that old win95 box replaced by a CentOS machine.
As far as modern games go... If your a Linux user that means that about 70% of the popular games aviable for Windows is aviable for Linux. Some using native binaries, some using Cedega. Beleive it or not some game makers actually support Cedega and help them get their stuff working on it well. For 'hardcore' gamers, of course, this is worthless since they'd pretty much want to play new games as soon as they come out.
As far as KDE goes.. There is a side project with them on making the entire KDE enviroment portable to Windows. If this ever realy works well it's going to be very interesting on the sort of impact it's going to have.
Some of the applications that KDE develops are actually very nice.
For instance I've been using Amarok and discovered it's tight relationship to K3b (which about right now it's one of the premier (read: fancy) cd and dvd mastering programs out there).
So combining these two applications, which is fairly seemless, I get a application that:
Automaticly scans selected directories (in my case located on a file server) that automaticly originizes them by Artist, Album, Song name (alphabetical or numerical order) as well as genre and all sorts of stuff like that.
Then generates basic playlists (accessable in m3u format) for all these things. Then it keeps tracks of the songs and periodicly updates it's records to incorporate any new things you may add to your collection.
Has fairly advanced abilities for creating and editing playlists through simple drag-n-drop interface as well as the ability to edit id3 tags, delete and rename files, and such.
Has the ability to pull down ablum cover art, lyric sheets, and artist bios, as well as other information. All from the internet with a click of the mouse. So I can read about different artists and see dates.. as well as get lyrics to sing along and all sorts of odds-n-ends like that.
When combined with K3b then you have the ability to drag and drop playlists and songs from either app. As well as other ways (such as right clicking on songs and such). Supports a wide veriaty of formats, ogg vorbis, mp3, etc etc. Pretty much whatever one of the audio backends for Amarok support (In my case I use gstreamer backend). You can burn them as data dvds/cdroms/ etc or music cdroms. You can edit them after you drag and drop and it has a nice little graph showing you how much data and minutes/seconds you have left as far as cdrom capacity goes.
So on and so forth.
Then there is Koffice. It has more features then pretty much any other office application suite out there and is fairly easy to use.
Kword: Wordproccessor.
Kspread: spreadsheet proccessor.
Kpresenter: 'presentation program'
Kexi: integrated database tool/database application creator.
Kivio: 'Visio'-style flow charts program
Karbon14: vector graphics
Krita: Painting application. (fairly advanced with 16bit per channel color support and support for HD editing via the OpenEXR format (from lucasfilms) in the upcoming 1.5 release, I beleive.. Not 100% sure)
KPlato: "An integrated project management and planning tool." whatever the hell that is.
Kchart: graphing/chart making tool
KFormula: formula making tool.
Kugar: helps making 'quality reports' or whatever the hell that is.
So there are a few KDE apps that I think are very impressive. NIH worked well for Koffice at least because O
rg is not the greatest thing in the world. Although file compatability isn't that great.I actually like very much having 2 different enviroments aviable for 'linux' (which isn't realy accurate since KDE and Gnome run on more then just Linux kernel based systems. Although Linux is generally the best). There are plenty of people that wouldn't use Gnome even if you inflicted torture on them. And KDE desktop makes my eyes bleed. Some of the things they make are very cool though.
It should be interesting to see what it all looks and what the usability will be like after the QT 4 transition.
As far as Visual Studio goes... ya that's a biggy for a lot of people. That's what you get if you depend on something that is designed to lock you into (or at least support) a paticular platform or another. (and I am aware of applications written in VS that work great in Linux, but compiling them isn't fun. (as in usually sucks) and I expect that it's very geared towards Windows API in terms of development tools and support.)
Closest thing people have in Linux would be things like Kdevelop or Eclipse at the moment. At least in terms of free software. There are a few commercial enviroment, there are plenty that are geared specificly towards one language or whatnot and stuff like that. Anjuta and whatnot is under development.
Then you have Emacs.. which is now more of a IDE then a actuall text editor. Great if you know how to program lisp since Emacs is it's own development enviroment.
Of course I don't expect that to entice anybody who depends on Visual Studio heavily.
Your Quick.
here are some screenshots of KDE on Windows if your curious to what it looks like.
http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net/kde3/screenshots.php
here are some screenshots of KDE on Windows if your curious to what it looks like.
http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net/kde3/screenshots.php
It's not about lock-in on the code side, it's about lock-in on the "holy crap this environment rocks - good editor, fantastic debugger" side. I hate debugging SeaMonkey on Linux because I don't like the tools (I admit I haven't tried Eclipse or Kdevelop), even though it's the same code.
Ah. Well I didn't say people used VS without merit. I know it's repuation for being a good development platform.
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Sunner
Actually I think MS bashing is kinda "out"...
It's one of those "in-between" periods IMO, where it's not quite cool to bash anything, but it'll probably be cool to bash OS X soon, after that I'd say it's Microsoft's turn again
It's always cool to bash OS X.
FIXED
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