Will dx11 games run in dx11.1 with these new GPUs?

[-Slacker-]

I know it's probably a silly question, but I don't know much about the subject.

So like the title asks, will it be possible to run current dx11 games in dx11.1 on the 7000 series cards or better, in windows 8 or any os that supports dx11.1?


--Or to run said games more efficiently (faster), since that's one of dx11.1 features, apparently?--




edit: I also found this post on nvidia's forum:

Judging from the feature list, it appears that DX 11.1 won't require new hardware because its focus is on operability, control and enhanced compatibility. They did the same thing with DX 10.1 in order to enhance the compatibility with ATI's hardware among other minor improvements.

I wouldn't think incremental version numbers would force hardware changes anyway - just a chance to polish things from release...

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=210245

Would that mean that you can run dx11.1 features with dx11 hardware?

 

[taltamir]

AFAIK the features of DX11.1 are basically:
1. native implementation of 3D (as in, the thing with the glasses), current implementation requires a custom unclean and hacky solution at the driver level.
2. Removed the ability & requirement of programs to control how the GPU is shared between multiple programs (limits GPU to being used by one program at once unless they specifically include code for sharing, and then has compatibility issues) and replaced it with a system where the OS designates GPU cycles to multiple programs trying to use the GPU at its own discretion (which is what the OS Does with the CPU right now to control how multiple programs share one CPU). This is an OS change and requires windows 8.
3. Allow developers to better debug by tracing operations better.
4. Some really minor stuff

Looks to me like changes on the DX/driver side of thing that doesn't require any changes to be made to games.

 

[-Slacker-]

So in short, games that are built for dx11 will run in dx11.1 on a dx11.1 gpu and a dx11.1 operating system?

Sorry about the "in short" thing, I really am having difficulty understanding this stuff.

 

[TakeNoPrisoners]

So in short, games that are built for dx11 will run in dx11.1 on a dx11.1 gpu and a dx11.1 operating system?

Sorry about the "in short" thing, I really am having difficulty understanding this stuff.

No, games would need to be patched to support DX 11.1.

 

[-Slacker-]

Sounds like a "no, period" then.

I imagine that these patches would essentially be a rewrite of the game's code, so fan modding would be extremely difficult (as opposed to modding for an Elder Scrolls game).

 

[(sic)Klown12]

Wouldn't need a complete rewrite of the game, just the renderer. Kind of like how Crytek patched in DX11 for Crysis 2 which was only DX9 at release. It might be more difficult for some games compared to others, but still very doable if they feel the need.

 

[-Slacker-]

That would be great, what with the improvements in performance that dx11.1 is supposed to bring to the table and how poorly most dx11 games run.

 

[taltamir]

No, games would need to be patched to support DX 11.1.

why?
The OS being more in control of scheduling should be inherent to the OS (win8) and not require any modification to the game.
The 3D viewing should be entirely driver changes rather then game changes.
The debugging stuff does not matter for running the finished product.

Only reason games would require a rewrite is possibly one of the more minor feature changes http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh404562(v=vs.85).aspx
Which skimming through also look like stuff that would only affect driver and OS.

So in short, unless I am mistaken, a DX11 video card will be DX11.1 capable with just a driver update, and DX11 games can run as DX11.1 with an OS / Driver update.
Changing from DX9 to 11 or DX10 to 11 would require a rewrite of parts of the game.

 

[GotNoRice]

DirectX11 hardware will not magically become capable of DirectX11.1, but it will however have no issues at all playing DirectX11.1 games using the 11.0 feature level.

Basically DirectX compatibility comes down to this (assuming your are running an OS with 11.1):

DX11.1 Hardware / DX11.1 Game = Running in DirectX11.1 using the 11.1 feature level.
DX11.0 Hardware / DX11.1 Game = Running in DirectX11.1 using the 11.0 feature level.
DX10.1 Hardware / DX11.1 Game = Running in DirectX11.1 using the 10.1 feature level.
DX10.0 Hardware / DX11.1 Game = Running in DirectX11.1 using the 10.0 feature level.

DX11.1 Hardware / DX11.0 Game = Running in DirectX11.0 using the 11.0 feature level.
DX11.0 Hardware / DX11.0 Game = Running in DirectX11.0 using the 11.0 feature level.
DX10.1 Hardware / DX11.0 Game = Running in DirectX11.0 using the 10.1 feature level.
DX10.0 Hardware / DX11.0 Game = Running in DirectX11.0 using the 10.0 feature level.

etc.

You will never be using a level of DirectX beyond what the game itself supports (A directX10 or 11.0 game won't magically become an 11.1 game) but on the flip side there are going to be improvements in 11.1 that aren't dependent on the underlying hardware, so if the game does support 11.1, you can benefit from that to a certain extent even if you don't have 11.1 hardware. A DirectX11.0 card running a 11.1 game in 11.1 using the 11.0 feature level will still offer improved performance over a DirectX11.0 card running an 11.0 game in the 11.0 feature level due to advancements in the API itself.

 

[GotNoRice]

So in short, unless I am mistaken, a DX11 video card will be DX11.1 capable with just a driver update, and DX11 games can run as DX11.1 with an OS / Driver update.
Changing from DX9 to 11 or DX10 to 11 would require a rewrite of parts of the game.

That wasn't the case with DirectX 10.1 cards. DirectX 10.0 cards continued to only be capable of DirectX 10.0 even after 10.1 was released. This, of course, didn't prevent them from playing 10.1 games but it didn't change what they are at the hardware level.

And while the transition from DX9 to DX10 would indeed likely require at least a partial rewrite, going from 10 to 11 would be trivial in comparison.

 

[taltamir]

That wasn't the case with DirectX 10.1 cards. DirectX 10.0 cards continued to only be capable of DirectX 10.0 even after 10.1 was released. This, of course, didn't prevent them from playing 10.1 games but it didn't change what they are at the hardware level.

Irrelevant, read what I actually posted.

 

[GotNoRice]

Irrelevant, read what I actually posted.

Ok.

a DX11 video card will be DX11.1 capable with just a driver update

False.

DX11 games can run as DX11.1 with an OS / Driver update

False.

 

[taltamir]

Ok.

Now read this

The OS being more in control of scheduling should be inherent to the OS (win8) and not require any modification to the game.
The 3D viewing should be entirely driver changes rather then game changes.
The debugging stuff does not matter for running the finished product.

 

[GotNoRice]

Now read this

Perhaps you can point out to me which part of that explains how a 11.0 card becomes an 11.1 card with a driver update?

The link you provided yourself earlier shows that DirectX11.1 has many improvements and that some certainly don't have to apply at a hardware level, but that won't be true in all cases.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh404562(v=vs.85).aspx

 

[TakeNoPrisoners]

why?
The OS being more in control of scheduling should be inherent to the OS (win8) and not require any modification to the game.
The 3D viewing should be entirely driver changes rather then game changes.
The debugging stuff does not matter for running the finished product.

Only reason games would require a rewrite is possibly one of the more minor feature changes http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh404562(v=vs.85).aspx
Which skimming through also look like stuff that would only affect driver and OS.

So in short, unless I am mistaken, a DX11 video card will be DX11.1 capable with just a driver update, and DX11 games can run as DX11.1 with an OS / Driver update.
Changing from DX9 to 11 or DX10 to 11 would require a rewrite of parts of the game.

Has nothing to do with anything.

See DX10.1.

Not all games supported DX10.1.

 

[taltamir]

Perhaps you can point out to me which part of that explains how a 11.0 card becomes an 11.1 card with a driver update?

simple
The OS being more in control of scheduling should be inherent to the OS (win8) and not require any modification to the game.
The 3D viewing should be entirely driver changes rather then game changes.
The debugging stuff does not matter for running the finished product.

Perhaps you could explain to me what physical changes or firmware changes are necessary to be make the above necessary?

See DX10.1.

DX11.1 is not DX10.1

 

[FalseChristian]

This makes me angry because I was completely happy with Windows XP Pro. I only upgraded to Windows 7 for DirectX 11! Now do I have to Upgrade again to Windows 8 just to get DirectX 11.1???

 

[jruchko]

This makes me angry because I was completely happy with Windows XP Pro. I only upgraded to Windows 7 for DirectX 11! Now do I have to Upgrade again to Windows 8 just to get DirectX 11.1???

They need to find some way to get people to buy Windows 8.

 

[taltamir]

They need to find some way to get people to buy Windows 8.

honestly, with the abortion that is metro I wouldn't use win8 even for free even for DX11.1.

 

[GotNoRice]

This makes me angry because I was completely happy with Windows XP Pro. I only upgraded to Windows 7 for DirectX 11! Now do I have to Upgrade again to Windows 8 just to get DirectX 11.1???

I doubt it. Keep in mind that DirectX10 was introduced with Vista, and vista has since gotten DirectX11 via updates even though DX11 was at first considered a Windows 7 "feature".

If they updated Vista from DX10 to DX11, I can't see them not upgrading 7 from 11 to 11.1. I bet Vista will get 11.1 also.

simple
The OS being more in control of scheduling should be inherent to the OS (win8) and not require any modification to the game.
The 3D viewing should be entirely driver changes rather then game changes.
The debugging stuff does not matter for running the finished product.

Agreed that many DX11.1 features will work fine on DX11 hardware, just as they will work fine on DX10.1 and DX10 hardware.

Perhaps you could explain to me what physical changes or firmware changes are necessary to be make the above necessary?

Target Independent Rasterization, for one, is something that can't be done on DX11.0 hardware.

 

[taltamir]

Target Independent Rasterization, for one, is something that can't be done on DX11.0 hardware.

Fair enough.