Will Bobcat be the home run AMD is looking for?

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Will Bobcat be the Home run AMD is looking for?

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tokie

Golden Member
Jun 1, 2006
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I just realized that the perfect application of Bobcat would probably be in a Macbook Air, since it apparently is close to C2D in performance. The new Macbook Airs have what, a 1.4GHz C2D + Nvidia Chipset? If AMD can give Apple a 1.4GHz Bobcat with integrated ATI graphics, I think Apple would gladly take it and enjoy the larger profit margins.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,140
1,791
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Yeah, I thought the same thing. I just wonder though if Apple would jump to AMD so soon. Apple has enjoyed a privileged existence with Intel, and jumping to AMD for this would sour things a bit.

The question though is whether or not Apple would actually care.

Apple was very Adobe-centric for a very long time, and now look at their relationship.
 

tokie

Golden Member
Jun 1, 2006
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Yeah, I thought the same thing. I just wonder though if Apple would jump to AMD so soon. Apple has enjoyed a privileged existence with Intel, and jumping to AMD for this would sour things a bit.

The question though is whether or not Apple would actually care.

Apple was very Adobe-centric for a very long time, and now look at their relationship.

Apple will do whatever makes them the most money without degrading the quality of their products. A shift from a low-voltage 1.4GHz C2D to a 1.4GHz Bobcat would be, according to rumours, a sideways shift in performance but a significant drop in price.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
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Apple will do whatever makes them the most money without degrading the quality of their products. A shift from a low-voltage 1.4GHz C2D to a 1.4GHz Bobcat would be, according to rumours, a sideways shift in performance but a significant drop in price.

Is everyone basing Ontario's performance figures based on those BOINC scores?

BOINC

Core 2 1.6GHz: 3250/1500.
Pentium M 1.6GHz: 2914/1467
 

Medikit

Senior member
Feb 15, 2006
338
0
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Here is another reason I see Bobcat being a runaway success:
http://www.intel.com/inside/smarttv/

Guess what processor will be present in Sony's competitors :).

Yeah, I thought the same thing. I just wonder though if Apple would jump to AMD so soon. Apple has enjoyed a privileged existence with Intel, and jumping to AMD for this would sour things a bit.

The question though is whether or not Apple would actually care.

Apple was very Adobe-centric for a very long time, and now look at their relationship.

I don't really see apple jumping at all. I find that they have been extremely loyal with their partnerships in the past.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
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Here is another reason I see Bobcat being a runaway success:
http://www.intel.com/inside/smarttv/

Guess what processor will be present in Sony's competitors :).

Quite unlikely. The CE4100 is a media beast of an SoC.

-Single chip integrates CPU core/GPU core(display/graphics/decoder)/DDR2 and 3 memory controller/NAND Controller/Transport Processor/Security Processor/General I/O and Audio chip + the I/Os for all
-Dual MPEG-2 MP@HL/MP@ML
-Dual VC1/WM9-AP@L1-L3
-Capable of 2x H.264 streams at HP4.1(50Mbit/s stream)
-MPEG 4.2 acceleration
-Hardware JPEG acceleration
-4x video DACs 10 bit, 150MHz

That's why Tegra 2 got pulled from Boxee. It doesn't even hold a candle compared to the Atom CE4100.
 
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Dark_Archonis

Member
Sep 19, 2010
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As a consumer, anything that says "integrated Intel graphics" is a big red flag to me. I trust it's the same for a lot of people.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Intel still dominates the mobile market in terms of graphics market share. Tons and tons of people still buy laptops with Intel IGPs, people who don't have a need for strong graphics performance. That is the majority of consumers out there.

Quite unlikely. The CE4100 is a media beast of an SoC.

-Single chip integrates CPU core/GPU core(display/graphics/decoder)/DDR2 and 3 memory controller/NAND Controller/Transport Processor/Security Processor/General I/O and Audio chip + the I/Os for all
-Dual MPEG-2 MP@HL/MP@ML
-Dual VC1/WM9-AP@L1-L3
-Capable of 2x H.264 streams at HP4.1(50Mbit/s stream)
-MPEG 4.2 acceleration
-Hardware JPEG acceleration
-4x video DACs 10 bit, 150MHz

That's why Tegra 2 got pulled from Boxee. It doesn't even hold a candle compared to the Atom CE4100.

Exactly. Atom's strength in the future is going to be the SoC designs that Intel will implement. They will be beastly designs that Bobcat will have trouble competing with.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Dark Archonis said:
They are a good deal more money simply because Intel charges a nice premium on them. If Intel really wants to, they can slash pricing on some of the ULV CPUs and really squeeze AMD hard.

If Ivy Bridge will be standard quad-core, even better. Imagine a quad core Ivy with a TDP in the 18-25W range. That would absolutely destroy any Bobcat in terms of performance. The beauty with Ivy is that each core will be able to independently turbo, and the GPU will also be able to independently turbo. For low TDP situations, 3 cores could turn off and the remaining one core and GPU would produce only a low amount of heat, especially considering Ivy will be on 22nm.

I mentioned Ivy being a quad core (supposedly with 24 DX11 shaders according to Fuad) because I suspect Intel will launch something else to cover the void left by the upscale migration of these processors.

My pure guess is that a redesigned "out of order execution" atom dual core with arrandale-level graphics would probably fit the bill.

Meanwhile, netbooks and low-end laptops will very likely be covered by low-end SB and Ivy Bridge models.

Well Cedar Trail will be around in the Sandy Bridge Era. That leaves us speculating what Intel will use in the Ivy Bridge era.
 

Dark_Archonis

Member
Sep 19, 2010
88
1
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I mentioned Ivy being a quad core (supposedly with 24 DX11 shaders according to Fuad) because I suspect Intel will launch something else to cover the void left by the upscale migration of these processors.

My pure guess is that a redesigned "out of order execution" atom dual core with arrandale-level graphics would probably fit the bill.

You could be right. Then again, Intel could surprise us and have Ivy Bridge cover even some of the lower end of the market. The rumor is that even low-end Intel products will be quad-core with Ivy Bridge. This is not counting the extremely mobile segment of Atom though. All the mobile Ivy Bridge chips are supposed to be standard quad-core.

Redesigned out-of-order Atom doesn't arrive until 2012 according to the latest info.

Well Cedar Trail will be around in the Sandy Bridge Era. That leaves us speculating what Intel will use in the Ivy Bridge era.

Well I think it will likely be Oak Trail.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,787
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Oak Trail: Q1 2011 Atom Z series replacement supporting Windows, 45nm
Moorestown: Atom Z series 1st gen for smartphones and tablets sans Windows support, 45nm
Medfield: Q1-Q2 2011 Atom Z series Moorestown successor, 32nm
Cedar Trail: Q4 2011 Atom N series replacement, 32nm

I'll be surprised if they go out of order using the 2011 Saltwell cores. Though I do expect some core redesigns.
 
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Dark_Archonis

Member
Sep 19, 2010
88
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Thanks for the clarification. So do we know exactly what Cedar Trail's successor will be, and Oak Trail's successor?
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,787
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There are no plans revealed beyond that. But one thing I can say is we should go back to talking about Bobcat. :)
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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I just realized that the perfect application of Bobcat would probably be in a Macbook Air, since it apparently is close to C2D in performance. The new Macbook Airs have what, a 1.4GHz C2D + Nvidia Chipset? If AMD can give Apple a 1.4GHz Bobcat with integrated ATI graphics, I think Apple would gladly take it and enjoy the larger profit margins.

That would be interesting and I'm sure it would save space inside Apple's chassis designs.

However the following question is lingering in my mind:

"Will Apple use Sandy/Ivy Bridge processors for the larger Mac Books (with support for Intel video decoder in Mac OS) or will they go forward (across the board) with Open CL (for encoding and other purposes)?"

If Apple goes forward with Open CL across the board, it would seem to me that increases the potential for a Zacate/11.6" Mac Book Air.
 
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cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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Oak Trail: Q1 2011 Atom Z series replacement supporting Windows, 45nm
Moorestown: Atom Z series 1st gen for smartphones and tablets sans Windows support, 45nm
Cedar Trail: Q1-Q2 2011 Atom N series replacement, 32nm
Medfield: Q1-Q2 2011 Atom Z series Moorestown successor, 32nm

I'll be surprised if they go out of order using the 2011 Saltwell cores. Though I do expect some core redesigns.

Thanks for the good information. (I always like reading your atom posts).

I just have this question to ask you...

Wikipedia claims/rumors Cedar Trail's GPU will be twice as strong as the GMA 3150 (found in Pineview).

How would this position Cedar Trail's GPU in relation to Arrandale's GPU core?

According to Intel GMA specifications found on Wiki, Pine view's GPU has 2 pipelines and Arrandale's GPU has 12 execution units. But how do I compare the two?
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,787
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Thanks for the good information. (I always like reading your atom posts).

I just have this question to ask you...

Wikipedia claims/rumors Cedar Trail's GPU will be twice as strong as the GMA 3150 (found in Pineview).

How would this position Cedar Trail's GPU in relation to Arrandale's GPU core?

According to Intel GMA specifications found on Wiki, Pine view's GPU has 2 pipelines and Arrandale's GPU has 12 execution units. But how do I compare the two?

The GPU architecture is completely different between the two. One is a software vertex shader based on traditional fixed function pipelines supporting Immediate Mode Zone(Tile) renderer, and other is a hardware vertex shader based on programmable pipelines of DX9 and 10 with no zone rendering tech.

Due to the outdated architecture, the GMA 3150 is 1/3 to 1/4 the speed of the GPU in Arrandale ULV. How much faster Cedar Trail's GPU will be dependent on whether its a GMA 4500 core or GMA HD core.

The regular voltage Arrandale is anywhere between 5-10x faster depending on the game and how much CPU dependency it has, average lying around 6-7x.
 
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grimpr

Golden Member
Aug 21, 2007
1,095
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Always interesting watching Intel fans talking about graphics and media with such authority in an AMD thread, seems the old adage still remains, "if it aint Intel it doesnt exist". :)
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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The GPU architecture is completely different between the two. One is a software vertex shader based on traditional fixed function pipelines supporting Immediate Mode Zone(Tile) renderer, and other is a hardware vertex shader based on programmable pipelines of DX9 and 10 with no zone rendering tech.

Due to the outdated architecture, the GMA 3150 is 1/3 to 1/4 the speed of the GPU in Arrandale ULV. How much faster Cedar Trail's GPU will be dependent on whether its a GMA 4500 core or GMA HD core.

The regular voltage Arrandale is anywhere between 5-10x faster depending on the game and how much CPU dependency it has, average lying around 6-7x.

Thanks, that info definitely helped me put the situation into perspective.
 
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wlee15

Senior member
Jan 7, 2009
313
31
91
Quite unlikely. The CE4100 is a media beast of an SoC.

-Single chip integrates CPU core/GPU core(display/graphics/decoder)/DDR2 and 3 memory controller/NAND Controller/Transport Processor/Security Processor/General I/O and Audio chip + the I/Os for all
-Dual MPEG-2 MP@HL/MP@ML
-Dual VC1/WM9-AP@L1-L3
-Capable of 2x H.264 streams at HP4.1(50Mbit/s stream)
-MPEG 4.2 acceleration
-Hardware JPEG acceleration
-4x video DACs 10 bit, 150MHz

That's why Tegra 2 got pulled from Boxee. It doesn't even hold a candle compared to the Atom CE4100.

With the exception of the Intel CPU and GPU nothing about CE4100 is special when compared to the MIPS based SOC used in blu-ray players.



Also techreport has posted an intro to the AMD Brazos platform. Lots of new info.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/19937
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,787
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With the exception of the Intel CPU and GPU nothing about CE4100 is special when compared to the MIPS based SOC used in blu-ray players.

See that's where the difference ends. Tegra 2 was pulled not because it can't support codecs. It was canned because it couldn't handle what it wanted. I did briefly look at some MIPS SoCs, same thing there.

Also techreport has posted an intro to the AMD Brazos platform. Lots of new info.

Die size is quite impressive. Kudos to AMD. Considering they didn't release HD5xxx die pics, I'd reckon the die efficient part is the GPU and taking out the memory controller shaves of significant portion of the 59mm2 die.
 
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maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
5,157
5,545
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This is the same design philosophy used with 6xxx GPU series.

Extremely high area efficiency. Bobcat is equivalent in size and cost to Atom but performance equivalent to Pentium performance.

How can it not be successful barring a huge screw up by AMD?

A small (18W) 1.6 dual core with 80 shaders will be ideal for basic general use. I see schools and small businesses all over the world grabbing this. Remember, there is a huge high growth market in developing countries. the US and other developed markets are not the entire world.
 

Medikit

Senior member
Feb 15, 2006
338
0
76
Quite unlikely. The CE4100 is a media beast of an SoC.

Zacate will make the atom obsolete.

The only thing that matters for an HTPC or laptop is performance and efficiency. The CPU/GPU component is such a large aspect of both performance and efficiency that you are wasting your time comparing any other feature. Hardware acceleration is a moot point as well as this fusion product will likely have superior acceleration. Focus on the big picture: The Zacate is very cheap to manufacture and will represent the best price to performance ratio in the market today. It's also extremely energy efficient which is also very ideal. Netbooks and laptops currently make up the bulk of new computer purchases by individuals. The HTPC is about to become the next big thing and the Zacate is the ideal HTPC CPU.
 
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Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,140
1,791
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Both have dual core variants. What exactly are you trying to allude to?
This is what I was expecting/hoping for:

Ontario:
1.0 GHz single-core for the ultra low end market
1.0 GHz dual-core for the bulk of the market
1.2 GHz dual-core

Zacate:
1.6 GHz single-core for the ultra low end market
1.6 GHz dual-core for the bulk of the market
1.8 GHz dual-core for the "high end", rather optimistic I admit.

Instead we got:

Ontario:
1.2 GHz single-core <-- I suspect this will represent the bulk of the Ontario market.
1.0 GHz dual-core

Zacate:
1.5 GHz single-core
1.6 GHz dual-core

This means to me that dual-core pricing is likely going to be a bit higher than I hoped, with the product mix for cheap netbooks still mostly single-core.

With 1.0 GHz dual-core Ontario as a near-baseline model, it would have taken over the netbook market by storm. With 1.2 GHz single-core as the real baseline model, it's still an improvement over Atom/GMA, but may not be the "homerun" some people were predicting. Still, it's not completely surprising. The hype was getting out of hand.

BTW, I suspect the orphaned CPU there for AnandTech types may be the 1.5 GHz single-core Zacate.

I can see AnandTechers buying:
Single-core 1.2 GHz netbooks
Dual-core 1.0 GHz netbooks and nettops/SFF machines.
Dual-core 1.6 GHz laptops and nettops/SFF machines.

I'm not entirely sure where 1.5 GHz single-core would fit for AnandTech types. I would buy a nettop with dual-core Zacate, but only if priced right, as in under $400 including Windows 7. Otherwise, I'm less interested, and would still consider an dual-core Atom/ION machine, which is available under $300 complete with Windows 7 Home Premium. In fact, I paid $260 for mine.
 
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