Will a UPS Help With This Issue?

[UpstartXT]

Over the past couple of years I have had two computers in my room that I keep plugged into a standard surge protector. I live in an extremely old house, although the electrical outlets in my room are pretty recent (I had them put in when I redid my room in 2003). Anyway, I've had about 3 PSU's, 2 motherboards, and 2 hard drives go dead on me in basically that same amount of time (since 2003, so 5 years or so). At one point I was convinced that whatever computer I was using as a sort of backup to my primary computer was cursed to not work, no matter what components I had in there even if it was a completely different system. Anyway, I recently read an article in some computer hardware magazine that was way above my comprehension, but the jist of it was that this magazine's computer lab had a "death zone" where if they put any of their test rigs in that spot of the room, their PSU's would die.

Finally they figured out that turning on and off the lightswtich of the room would somehow interrupt the flow of electricity to this one outlet that was utilized by computers placed in that area. They purchased a UPS and this seemed to fix the problem.

Could this possibly be the culprit in my case as well? When I had the outlets put in, they also completely redid my lighting at the same time and put new light switches in.

I know this question might be a little to vague or not have enough info, such as the exact names of the products that went dead or stuff like that. But do you think it would be a smart idea for me to purchase a UPS for both my primary rig and my secondary rig? Is there a buying guide for noobs, because although I can build a computer, I'm pretty clueless when it comes to current technology out there and especially UPS's which I have never even heard of before.

 

[Billb2]

That probably won't help (see later).
A little background. House wiring starts where the power enters the house and splits up into separate "circuits".
Say the house has 200 amp service. That may be divided into 15 20 amp circuits. Each circuit supplying a different area of the house. So long as you computers aren't on a circuit with a lot of other stuff you're good to go. The problem comes in when your computer is on a circuit with something big that shuts on and off, like a refrigerator, freezer, air conditioner, even a sump pump.
Then that big thing shutting on and off p[lays havoc with the power to your computer. This problem is compounded in older houses because they don't usually have much power coming in, maybe only 100 amps, and that's again divided up to serve the various areas, sometimes with as little as 10 amps on each individual circuit.

Now back to the surge protector/UPS question. A surge protector will help even out voltage spikes caused by those big things going on and off. Generally the more you pay for the surge protector, the larger the voltage changes it can deal with. A UPS is something completely different. If the power goes completely off, the surge protector kicks in and supplies temporary power (from it's rechargeable battery) for your computer until either the power comes back on or the battery runs dowm. The better ones will even kick in if the power at the outlet just gets too low. UPS's (Uninterpretable Power Supplies) usually also have better surge protectors built in that the ones you buy in the store.

So without tracing all the wiring in your house to see what's connected to the circuit your computer is on, the easiest thing to do is to get a cheep volt meter and connect it to the same outlet your computer is on and just watch it occasionally to see of the voltage changes a lot. If it does, then you have to rearrange the load on the house wiring circuits.

 

[UpstartXT]

I was under the impression that a surge protector would protect against any spikes (like a lightning strike or something), but if the power suddenly drops (say, a brown-out from my air conditioner going on), it can't come up with extra power to make up for the sudden decrease in electricity. That is where a UPS would come in. Although its primarily used for providing an extra minute or two to shutdown in the case of a blackout, I thought it also could form a secondary role by providing stable and unvarying electricity to the computer in the case that there is a sudden drop.

In case it will help I DO have one of those air conditioners that you put in your window, and although during the summer it is always on, it seems to cycle between just blowing around air and then when it gets to hot it switches to actually cooling the air, which sometimes I notice dims the lights for a brief second.

So in short: are you sure a surge protector would be able to make up for the dips in electricity during brown-outs? The current one I have is pretty expensive, its a Belkin, not sure what exact model is.

 

[Zap]

What you may want to look into is a line conditioner. A friend of mine lived out in the country and he would lose a PSU about every 4-6 months or so. After losing around 5, he got a line conditioner and since then (around 6 years) only lost one PSU.

 

[panfist]

I believe that most good UPS units also provide the same functions as a line conditioner. My roommate got one to protect his computer from the air conditioner turning on and off. Before he had the UPS, anytime the AC unit would switch, his sound card would garble for about a second. Then, after he got the UPS, when the AC unit switched you could hear the UPS beep twice to indicate that it was activating and deactivating.

Edited for correctness: Only Line-Interactive UPS units with AVR (automatic voltage regulation) do the same thing as a line conditioner.

Thanks jonny, you the man.

 

[jonnyGURU]

Originally posted by: panfist
I believe that most good UPS units also provide the same functions as a line conditioner.

I'm 90% sure that most UPS units also do the same thing that a line conditioner does but I'm not an expert.

Nope. Stand-by UPS's (the cheapest) do NOT and Line-Interactive UPS's (the most common) only do if they say the unit features "AVR" (Automatic Voltage Regulation). Only Online UPS's offer built in line conditioning, but that's because everything goes through the batteries and has to be converted from DC to AC regardless of whether there's power from the mains or not.

 

[Elstupido]

A decent APC or Tripplite UPS is a very good idea. You want one with AVR, as it will maintain a steady voltage even when your AC kicks on causing a drop in voltage, as the compressor turns on, which causes a huge momentary amperage draw, which in turn drops your voltage, no matter how new or old your wiring is, of course assuming you have a 100 amp or more service coming in.

Plus you get good surge protection, and the obvious battery power if your online power goes out. I really like mine because I have frequent, very short outages being in the mountains in a sometimes severe climate. These short outages can not be good because of the spike that can occur during power loss and power on.

 

[UpstartXT]

Would you guys suggest then purchasing a product like this if I don't care about powering down in a blackout (or should I care?)?

Line Conditioner I'm looking at

 

[jonnyGURU]

Yep. That'll work if you only want to regulate line voltage with no battery back up.

 

[UpstartXT]

Is there any reason I would want to shell out the extra cash to get a UPS instead of a line conditioner? I mean, if there's a blackout and my computer turns off without going through the normal shutdown procedure what's the big deal?

 

[panfist]

99% of the time nothing terrible will happen if your computer just loses power. It used to be an issue with older operating systems and file systems. If you're using NTFS you should be fine unless you're in the middle of applying an update or something, and even then, you'll probably be fine.

On the other hand, if you're working on something like a term paper and you forget to save, all your work will be lost. Most newer word processors and stuff autosave for you, so you'll probably be fine then, too.

 

[Modelworks]

One of the hardest things on a pc or anything electronic besides a massive spike, like from lightning, is a power cycle.

When power cuts out for only a second or two, that causes a major strain on the power supply. Its the equivalent of pulling the plug on something then quickly plugging it back in.
Sometimes that can occur several times in a row in a short period of time and that causes parts failure almost as much as surges.

Some ups handle those well.
They switch over in .5 secs and stay switched over for about 30 secs at least.
Some don't handle it well and constantly switch back with every dropout.
Thats bad for the ups and bad for the stuff connected to it.

As mentioned by others the best ups would be an online model.
It basically a large battery charger with the batteries connected to an inverter that everything always runs off of. Zero switching time and the power is always clean.
You will pay more for one of those units, but to me its worth it.

In your situation I would first get a digital multimeter and check the voltage on the outlets.
Its common in old houses to have aluminum wiring that can be problematic.
So even if the outlets were replaced I would check the voltage just to make sure all is ok.

If it is then a line conditioner might help, but its probably not going to do much to change things. If you have lots of outages, then pick up a ups, otherwise a 20.00 surge protector should be fine.

 

[jonnyGURU]

If ever I want to feel like a gazillionaire, I just come to these forums. Forums where $100 is too much for a UPS with AVR and $50 is too much for a power supply.

Now if you don't mind, I'm going to go light up a roll of 50's and fire up my cigar.

 

[tynopik]

i too used to have problems with power supplies and components dying

then i realized that the hassle was not worth it so i got
1. a UPS with AVR
2. a quality power supply (first Seasonic SS400 and then Corsair 620HX, which is built by Seasonic)

a poor quality power supply can take out your other components if it fails (because of things like repeated voltage dips)

as a bonus, the power supplies were also much quieter

since then, no more problems

 

[Billb2]

Originally posted by: UpstartXT
...I DO have one of those air conditioners ...
...which sometimes I notice dims the lights for a brief second.

That's what is eating your components.

And you only notice the AC dimming the lights, but there may be other things that draw power from the same circuit too.

Option one: Rewire the house circuit to get that other stuff off the circuit supplting your PC.
Option two: Get a good UPS with good surge suppression (to take care of transient voltage "spikes" from stuff turning on/off) and good power regulation to take of current drops (when other things draw excessive power from the PC circuit). And it will include battery backup too!

 

[UpstartXT]

Looking at this one.....

 

[jaqie]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Stand-by UPS's (the cheapest) do NOT and Line-Interactive UPS's (the most common) only do if they say the unit features "AVR" (Automatic Voltage Regulation). Only Online UPS's offer built in line conditioning, but that's because everything goes through the batteries and has to be converted from DC to AC regardless of whether there's power from the mains or not.

This is right on the money to understate it.
If you don't want to spend for a new UPS with these features, there is always refurbups.com which is where I purchase all of my UPS units... incredibly good prices, new batts, and the only thing different then new (besides the price) is possibly scratches / dings on the unit. Who the heck cares about that with a UPS?

I adore the 1000VA Smart-UPS they have there.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Well I've been using apc units with avr on all of my machines for years and they've protected them from spikes and browouts. Where I'm at now the lights flicker regularly and the apc's keep it clean to my pc's. I"d never think about flashing a pc without a battery backup hooked up to it.

 

[Modelworks]

Those window air conditioners that run off 115V are the bane of computers.
They are supposed to be run off their own dedicated circuit.
But that is rarely done.
Most people just plug them into the nearest outlet which is already loaded with items.

When you add a compressor that is pulling upwards of 10-12 amps on start and then have a pc attached that is wanting 5-6 amps your asking for trouble, not counting lights or other items on the same line.


Most homes have 15-20 amp breakers so your already exceeding or very close to the limit for that line.

There is also lots of noise generated on the line when a compressor starts because of inductance.

 

[jaqie]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
They are supposed to be run off their own dedicated circuit.

Not all of them.

When you add a compressor that is pulling upwards of 10-12 amps on start and then have a pc attached that is wanting 5-6 amps your asking for trouble, not counting lights or other items on the same line.
Most homes have 15-20 amp breakers so your already exceeding or very close to the limit for that line.

My own air conditioner is a recent model that takes 5.8A max. It is a small energy efficiency model, and is enough for my small apartment.

There is also lots of noise generated on the line when a compressor starts because of inductance.

Very true, which is why I run a good UPS which filters out all that crud.

 

[UpstartXT]

Wait so jaqie are you saying the UPS I linked above is not going to do the job? Can you link me one that will (going to be running a rig with 2 HDs, e8400, 620W psu, 1 video card, 40" lcdtv)?

 

[tomoyo]

Originally posted by: jaqie

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Stand-by UPS's (the cheapest) do NOT and Line-Interactive UPS's (the most common) only do if they say the unit features "AVR" (Automatic Voltage Regulation). Only Online UPS's offer built in line conditioning, but that's because everything goes through the batteries and has to be converted from DC to AC regardless of whether there's power from the mains or not.

This is right on the money to understate it.
If you don't want to spend for a new UPS with these features, there is always refurbups.com which is where I purchase all of my UPS units... incredibly good prices, new batts, and the only thing different then new (besides the price) is possibly scratches / dings on the unit. Who the heck cares about that with a UPS?

I adore the 1000VA Smart-UPS they have there.

Whoa I'm kinda in the market for a smart-ups. Do you hear any noise/buzz from the unit? Does it have a fan? My current preference is for a pure sine wave with no fan and minimal buzz is possible.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: tomoyo


Whoa I'm kinda in the market for a smart-ups. Do you hear any noise/buzz from the unit? Does it have a fan? My current preference is for a pure sine wave with no fan and minimal buzz is possible.

I have an apc smart ups .
Its a rack mount unit designed for servers.
Pure sine wave, avr, etc.
I run it off two marine deep cycle batteries, gives several hours of run time.
I live in an area prone to hurricanes and power outages and that really comes in handy.

I can hear it cycling the charging on the batteries.
Its like a low hum for about 5 secs, then silence for 15 secs, repeat.
Can't hear it unless the room is completely silent though, so really doesn't bother me.
Fan in the unit only comes on if its been running for more than an hour off battery.

 

[jaqie]

Upstart, I was linking you to a possible cheaper source for a better one (more ups for less money then the one you had selected) other then a low VA rating (and thus shorter runtime) that one you selected would be OK... personally I would get the best I can afford in a UPS even if that means buying used, especially when they come with brand new batts as they do there.

Modelworks has it right on the money about the behaviour of the SmartUPS, only I have the SmartUPS 1000. Then again, mine is out of the way, and my computers even though they are fairly quiet actually drown out any noise it makes.

 

[Pabster]

Don't go cheap on the UPS.

Get a good one. That means you'll need to spend more than $50 or $60. They're junk.

You want an "Online" UPS which runs everything through the batteries, whether AC power is present or not. These are significantly more expensive but worth every penny.