Wikileaks, Iraq edition

[CallMeJoe]

...Don't you ever forget that they attacked us at 9/11...

Attacking Iraq because of September 11 is akin to attacking China because of Pearl Harbor.

 

[HappyPuppy]

It was accepted by millions. They protested, marched, refused, etc. It just wasn't accepted by those who would suffer personal financial impact, or those blinded by nationalism, or brainwashed to be their minions.

The folly of Vietnam, like Iraq, was KNOWN at the time. It just wasn't enough to stop it because the people in charge have no morals.

It was known at WHAT TIME? I deployed in early 1968, was the folly known at that time and were millions protesting?

 

[HappyPuppy]

Attacking Iraq because of September 11 is akin to attacking China because of Pearl Harbor.

That is beyond ignorant.

 

[Zorkorist]

No it wasn't nor isn't it.

Our Government, as well as our people, firmly believed they were behind the attacks. Iraq was the face of Islam to most of us back then.

We have learned more about the threat since then.

-John

 

[CallMeJoe]

That is beyond ignorant.

Yes, you are.

 

[Zorkorist]

Attacking Iraq was like slapping Allah in the face.

-John

 

[SamurAchzar]

We were directly attacked by a specific nation with the aim of global conquest. We then came directly to the aid of other nations unable to mount a defense against the same directed attacks.

Was the US attacked on US soil? Yes Germans sunk US cargo vessels but I'd hardly call it "an existential threat". US could sit idly and not interfere with the German plans - I doubt the Germans would have tried to directly attack US.
It definitely falls under "interests" to me. That non-interventionist policy works only on Ron Paul's campaigns, the world is much more complicated than that. And it's not just wars, either; there's a shocking volume of paramilitary and covert operations done by nations every day. The open wars are just the tip of the intervention iceberg.

Being that we're mostly alive and well, no nuclear wars have happened, the USSR dissolved as did Nazi Germany and Al Qaeda are mostly busy hiding, I say it worked out reasonably well so far.

 

[Zorkorist]

Calling him a Dog.

Stoning his daughter.

-John

 

[PrinceofWands]

lol... go with that Prince of Wands.

How about Madrid, London, that place in Africa, the Cole.

Bunch of little Muslim fags, eh?

-John

Madrid - Not Iraq
London - Not Iraq
not sure which Africa incident you mean
Cole - Not Iraq


You = FAIL

 

[PrinceofWands]

It was known at WHAT TIME? I deployed in early 1968, was the folly known at that time and were millions protesting?

The protests over US involvement began in 1945. It became organized and widespread (internationally) in 63. It hit home with the big NY protests in 64. There was PILES of research, journalism, and evidence by the time you joined.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Attacking Iraq was like slapping Allah in the face.

-John

Actually no, Iraq under Saddam was as close as you're going to get to a "secular" Arab state. Yes, still deranged Muslim zealots, but the alternatives are much worse. If you wanted to slap anyone in the face, you should have gone for Saudi Arabia, Iran or Afghanistan. Honestly I have no better explanation as to why US went there other than honestly believing they had WMDs.

 

[Zorkorist]

Being that we're mostly alive and well, no nuclear wars have happened, the USSR dissolved as did Nazi Germany and Al Qaeda are mostly busy hiding, I say it worked out reasonably well so far.

Quoted for truth.

-John

 

[CallMeJoe]

Was the US attacked on US soil? Yes Germans sunk US cargo vessels but I'd hardly call it "an existential threat". US could sit idly and not interfere with the German plans - I doubt the Germans would have tried to directly attack US...

The United States was directly attacked by the Empire of Japan. Following the United States' declaration of war on Japan, Germany declared war on the United States.

 

[PrinceofWands]

That is beyond ignorant.

It's 100% completely, and in EVERY way perfectly accurate.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Was the US attacked on US soil? Yes Germans sunk US cargo vessels but I'd hardly call it "an existential threat". US could sit idly and not interfere with the German plans - I doubt the Germans would have tried to directly attack US.
It definitely falls under "interests" to me. That non-interventionist policy works only on Ron Paul's campaigns, the world is much more complicated than that. And it's not just wars, either; there's a shocking volume of paramilitary and covert operations done by nations every day. The open wars are just the tip of the intervention iceberg.

Being that we're mostly alive and well, no nuclear wars have happened, the USSR dissolved as did Nazi Germany and Al Qaeda are mostly busy hiding, I say it worked out reasonably well so far.

Tell it to the faces of those tens of thousands of Iraqis who lost innocent family members over a misplaced military action.

If you really feel that way you'd BETTER not bitch in the least if you lose family members when some other up and coming nation does the same against us. Because I'll PERSONALLY remind you of your statements and inform you that it's a GOOD THING your loved ones are dead.

After all, what's good for the goose...

 

[Zorkorist]

Actually no, Iraq under Saddam was as close as you're going to get to a "secular" Arab state. Yes, still deranged Muslim zealots, but the alternatives are much worse. If you wanted to slap anyone in the face, you should have gone for Saudi Arabia, Iran or Afghanistan. Honestly I have no better explanation as to why US went there other than honestly believing they had WMDs.

We did go for Afghanistan, we are still there. Saudi Arabia, provides us oil, and we were ignorant back then.

Iran is the Muslim country that is actually trying to fight back against their leaders, their Religion. They are the true bright spot in the Muslim world... Fighters against Muslim rule.

-John

 

[SamurAchzar]

Tell it to the faces of those tens of thousands of Iraqis who lost innocent family members over a misplaced military action.

You're aware that the vast majority of Iraqi deaths were caused by other Iraqis, yes? Do them savages need the supervision of the white man in order to live peacefully without trying to oppress or kill one another?

If you really feel that way you'd BETTER not bitch in the least if you lose family members when some other up and coming nation does the same against us. Because I'll PERSONALLY remind you of your statements and inform you that it's a GOOD THING your loved ones are dead.

After all, what's good for the goose...

I like this idea. US could dissolve all armed forces, other than few nuclear warheads (the "turn them into glass" paradigm) and all will be just fine.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Do them savages need the supervision of the white man in order to live peacefully without trying to oppress or kill one another?

Gee I don't know; go ask a native american.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Gee I don't know; go ask a native american.

I would, but they are mostly extinct.

 

[PrinceofWands]

I would, but they are mostly extinct.

Because of each other? Or because of the white man supervising them?

If you're going to try taking on an air of superiority, it's important to actually BE superior.

 

[Craig234]

The United States was directly attacked by the Empire of Japan. Following the United States' declaration of war on Japan, Germany declared war on the United States.

Because of a treaty Germany had with Japan. Hitler did not want war then with the US, and he said so in the declaration of war.

FDR felt we needed to join the war against Hitler, but the US public was largely against it. FDR had public opposition to his fighting in Europe rather than Japan.

It reminds me a bit of WWI, when the German sinking of the Lusitania helped draw the US into the war; Germany had taken out neswpaper ads saying not to sail on the ship, because it was a vessel planning to sail into British waters where Germans had a policy to shoot any vessel. Some ignored the warnings and sailed on the vessel.

Germany was not pleased with the sinking of the ship, IIRC, but when a British citizen made some mock coins as if they were German celebrating the anniversary of the sinking, the British government saw them and publicized them as authenticate, knowing they were not, to stir hatred of Germany as having dancing, laughing glee over the sinking.

Not a lot changed when after 9/11, footage of a group of Middle Easterners gleefully celebrating the attack was aired constantly, inciting the US to fury against the region.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Because of each other? Or because of the white man supervising them?

If you're going to try taking on an air of superiority, it's important to actually BE superior.

I'm not the one claiming superiority, it's the do-gooders; by blaming US for "not preventing" Iraqis killing one another, they are basically admitting Iraqis are not to be held responsible for their own actions.

Arab A kills Arab B; blame the American. There's so little reference to who actually performs the killing that any American kid growing into this conflict might really think US commits slaughters daily.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Not a lot changed when after 9/11, footage of a group of Middle Easterners gleefully celebrating the attack was aired constantly, inciting the US to fury against the region.

"a group". You make them sound so insubstantial. Do you know, Craig, what are the approval rates of the 9/11 in the Arab and broader Muslim world? Let me put it differently: between allowing women to vote and supporting suicide attacks on Western targets, which of the ideas is more appealing to the Muslim street?

 

[Zorkorist]

T.E. Lawrence: So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people - greedy, barbarous, and cruel.

 

[PrinceofWands]

I'm not the one claiming superiority, it's the do-gooders; by blaming US for "not preventing" Iraqis killing one another, they are basically admitting Iraqis are not to be held responsible for their own actions.

Arab A kills Arab B; blame the American. There's so little reference to who actually performs the killing that any American kid growing into this conflict might really think US commits slaughters daily.

I don't blame the US for not stopping the killings they weren't directly responsible for...I blame them for being there in the first place and meddling in affairs they had no right to, and doing it through lies and manipulation.

And the US DOES commit atrocities daily, and has throughout its ENTIRE history. Perhaps not every day, but consistently. That's why wikileaks is so vitally important. Until you have truth, you have NOTHING.