Wikileaks, Iraq edition

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
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Well, prelim reports from reporters looking at the most recent wikileaks data dump are pretty bad.

Shocking news to some, but the government lied again about just about everything.

-Records show that 285,000 Iraqi's hasve died, which is way different from the ~80k the Pentagon publicly admits to. Hmmmm....wonder why they lied about being off by a factor of 3x? Anyone actually shocked?


-Abu-Graib? Thought prison abuse was over with? Think again.

Guess not

Good thing the Iraqi government is law abiding as well

So torture, abuse and murders continued in US and Iraqi jails. I guess the Iraqi's learned from us well, to continue and get worse? What exactly are we supposed to be helping them with again?

Just a few quotes so far:
In one case, Americans suspected Iraqi Army officers of cutting off a detainee’s fingers and burning him with acid. Two other cases produced accounts of the executions of bound detainees.

In August 2009, an Iraqi police commando unit reported that a detainee committed suicide in its custody, but an autopsy conducted in the presence of an American “found bruises and burns on the detainee’s body as well as visible injuries to the head, arm, torso, legs, and neck.” The report stated that the police “have reportedly begun an investigation.”

At least some soldiers were doing the right thing and trying to stop events like these:

In August 2006, an American sergeant in Ramadi heard whipping noises in a military police station and walked in on an Iraqi lieutenant using an electrical cable to slash the bottom of a detainee’s feet. The American stopped him, but later he found the same Iraqi officer whipping a detainee’s back.

Pity that the entire chain of command turned a blind eye to this and let all those civilians die, and all of those prisoners get tortured.

I'm really glad that we and the "new" Iraq are the good guys, I'd hate to think what bad people would have done.
 
May 16, 2000
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I'd like to see some independent investigation, now that there's basic documentation available. Things like this keep the dream of transparent government alive.
 

Draftee

Member
Feb 13, 2009
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It's good to have all this out in the open. As the Pentagon call this "essentially snapshots of events, both tragic and mundane, and do not tell the whole story", would they be able to tell us the whole story?
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
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I agree, it's good in the open.

"You want the truth?! You can't handle the truth!"

Jack Nicholas.

-John
 
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SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
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What's interesting is that this leak sure brings out all the liberals from their holes. It's like a rotting buffalo to a pack of hyenas.

Let's study the following article, published in The Guardian:

The title does not leave much room for imagination, claiming "Iraq war logs: Apache crew killed insurgents who tried to surrender"

Then we start reading. The opening paragraph:

A US gunship crew was cleared to attack two insurgents on the ground even though the pilots had reported that the men were trying to surrender, the leaked Iraq war logs reveal.

Oh, them vile Americans!

Moving on to the second paragraph, it becomes more interesting:

The Apache helicopter pilots killed both Iraqi men after being advised by a US military lawyer that they could not surrender to an aircraft and therefore remained valid targets. A leading military law expert consulted by the Guardian has questioned this legal advice.

Wow, real time advice from lawyers? Has warfare really degenerated to this? Where were the lawyers when the allied bombed German cities in WWII? What kind of legal advice was received before bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki? This is pathetic.

Moving on:

According to the account of the earlier incident in the leaked logs, the insurgents had jumped out of their truck after it came under fire from the Apache. "They came out wanting to surrender," Crazyhorse 18 signalled.

Clearance to kill came back from an unnamed lawyer at the nearby Taji airbase. "Lawyer states they can not surrender to aircraft and are still valid targets," the log entry says.

Murderers, right? Well, read the following, you'll need this later:

After receiving the lawyer's advice, the pilots reported that the men had by now got back into their truck and were attempting to drive on. The gunship made two attempts to kill the fleeing men, launching a Hellfire missile at the truck.

So they attempted to run off with a truck full of weapons. That's much more interesting. Let's refer to that Guardian expert on wartime law:

One of Britain's foremost experts on the subject, Professor Sir Adam Roberts, cast doubt on the legal advice given to the Crazyhorse 18 crew. "Surrender is not always a simple matter," Roberts, emeritus professor of international relations at Oxford University and joint editor of Documents on the Laws of War, told the Guardian. But the reasoning given by the US military lawyer was "dogmatic and wrong".

"The issue is not that ground forces simply cannot surrender to aircraft," he said. "The issue is that ground forces in such circumstances need to surrender in ways that are clear and unequivocal."

However, he added: "If the insurgents did indeed get back into the truck and drove off in the same direction as previously, then they probably acted unwisely, in a way that called into question their act of surrender … The US airmen might legitimately reckon that the truck contained weapons and that the men could be intending to rejoin the fight sooner or later."

Wait. So they actually weren't surrendering? Could it be that by fleeing, the crew should have engaged them again?

The article about closes with some background of the incident:

The detailed account of events on that February morning begins with a common occurrence: insurgents near the huge Taji airbase start lobbing rockets and mortar shells, in the hope of killing Americans. US troops return the shelling, and Crazyhorse 18 is dispatched on a mission to see whether the retaliation has had any effect. At 11.34am, three minutes after takeoff, the crew spot the insurgents fleeing their launch site with a mortar and tripod on the back of a Bongo – a light truck manufactured by Kia.

The crew confirm a "positive identification" of the enemy. But it is 13 minutes before the pilots are officially "cleared to engage" with automatic cannonfire by their headquarters.

The Apache opens fire, and two Iraqis fling themselves out of the Bongo as the heavy shells blast the truck and cause its stock of mortar ammunition to "cook off".

Seems like they had some toys.

So lets recap:

1. Insurgents shell US bases
2. An Apache is scrambled to the location
3. Insurgents attempt to flee, in a truck carrying mortar and rounds
4. The Apache identify them, opening fire
5. The insurgents surrender, at which point some military lawyer authorizes engagement
6. While the pilots work their way up the bureaucracy, the insurgents attempt to flee
7. The Apache is ordered to open fire from the squadron command
8. The insurgents are engaged again, this time taken out in a spectacular show of ordnance exploding

9. The Guardian publishes an article how US pilots killed insurgents who tried to surrender

Pretty awesome chain of events, don't you think.
 
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HappyPuppy

Lifer
Apr 5, 2001
16,997
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Hee, hee, you kiddies are way too soft. War is war and these documents won't reveal anything one tenth as bad as what we did to those commie bastards in Viet Nam.

I don't care what our people did if it saved even one American life.
 

Draftee

Member
Feb 13, 2009
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Hee, hee, you kiddies are way too soft. War is war and these documents won't reveal anything one tenth as bad as what we did to those commie bastards in Viet Nam.

I don't care what our people did if it saved even one American life.
So you don't mind all this is leaked? Sounds like win-win then :)
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Hee, hee, you kiddies are way too soft. War is war and these documents won't reveal anything one tenth as bad as what we did to those commie bastards in Viet Nam.

I don't care what our people did if it saved even one American life.

Making you a moral scumbag, laughing and bragging about crimes against humanity. I guess Al Queda doesn't care what their people do, either. You're a lot like them, if not worse.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Hee, hee, you kiddies are way too soft. War is war and these documents won't reveal anything one tenth as bad as what we did to those commie bastards in Viet Nam.

I don't care what our people did if it saved even one American life.
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Don't be a damn fool HappyPuppy, the lying sacks of shit politicians costs us 58,000 lost American lives, and did not save a single American life in the bargain.

But whoppee do, we gave better than we got, and killed some 2 million Vietnamese lives in the bargain.

The only winner in Vietnam was the Grim reaper, and its only eight shopping days until Halloween.

Cheer up, Iraq is far worse, maybe a million Iraqi deaths and at least 2 million exiled, and sadly, nothing is politically fixed in Iraq, so we may see more bigger bloodbaths.

But dare we hope, expensive quagmires will become cheaper by the Dozen, the grim reaper is a counting on it. But as they say, the big dog has to eat.
 
May 16, 2000
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That's exactly what it takes to win wars.

No one really wins a war. Once you have to fight, everyone has lost.

That said, the incredible cost on all sides is what SHOULD keep you from fighting any war that isn't ABSOLUTELY necessary just to remain alive. Iraq had nothing to do with that (and neither did Vietnam), therefore the entirety of the loss is an empty waste. It also means all of the atrocities were committed without purpose or necessity, doubling their evil.
 
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HappyPuppy

Lifer
Apr 5, 2001
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Making you a moral scumbag, laughing and bragging about crimes against humanity. I guess Al Queda doesn't care what their people do, either. You're a lot like them, if not worse.

At the time I volunteered to stop the Commie hordes it was not accepted that our altercation was ill motivated. I/we were there and fighting for our lives and those of our countrymen.

You came along later to read history and and put in a context we were not privy to. Under the same circumstances I would do the same today as I did back then.

You dream about that little Vietnamese girl running down the road after being napalmed. I have nightmares about it every night, but I would bomb her village again based on what I knew at the time.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
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No one really wins a war. Once you have to fight, everyone has lost.

That said, the incredible cost on all sides is what SHOULD keep you from fighting any war that isn't ABSOLUTELY necessary just to remain alive. Iraq had nothing to do with that (and neither did Vietnam), therefore the entirety of the loss is an empty waste. It also means all of the atrocities were committed without purpose or necessity, doubling their evil.

The moment a war turns into a prolonged, humane, supervised exercise you're just wasting money and lives. It seems like decisively winning a war is perceived as the wrong thing to do today.

I supported the Iraqi war at the time, but I don't now. Not because of the Iraqis, it was pretty clear what would happen to anyone with half a clue about how things are conducted in the ME, but because it reinforced Iran beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

Fighting wars just for survival and not for the sake of your interests puts you on the fast lane to being an international punching bag, as some nations do discover today, with China and Iran playing on that. Deterrence starts with being perceived as trigger happy.

I too admire liberal enlightened ideals, too bad our enemies (yes, we have enemies) haven't caught up to them yet.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
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No one really wins a war. Once you have to fight, everyone has lost.

That said, the incredible cost on all sides is what SHOULD keep you from fighting any war that isn't ABSOLUTELY necessary just to remain alive. Iraq had nothing to do with that (and neither did Vietnam), therefore the entirety of the loss is an empty waste. It also means all of the atrocities were committed without purpose or necessity, doubling their evil.
Not true.

A kid wins a war when he fights the bully, even when the bully eventually wins.

It's not the winning or losing that counts, it's the fighting.

Don't you ever forget that they attacked us at 9/11.

-John
 
May 16, 2000
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The moment a war turns into a prolonged, humane, supervised exercise you're just wasting money and lives. It seems like decisively winning a war is perceived as the wrong thing to do today.

I supported the Iraqi war at the time, but I don't now. Not because of the Iraqis, it was pretty clear what would happen to anyone with half a clue about how things are conducted in the ME, but because it reinforced Iran beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

Fighting wars just for survival and not for the sake of your interests puts you on the fast lane to being an international punching bag, as some nations do discover today, with China and Iran playing on that. Deterrence starts with being perceived as trigger happy.

I too admire liberal enlightened ideals, too bad our enemies (yes, we have enemies) haven't caught up to them yet.

We have a core difference of opinion which is unresolvable. I believe those who fight for 'interests' as you call them are bad human beings, and contribute to evil and the negative state of the world. It's just another form of greed and egocentrism.

Having said that, when you really do HAVE to fight, fight decisively. No rules, no quarter, no mercy, no waste. Turn the entirety of the opposing nation into a sheet of glass...a monument to what happens when someone forces such a conflict. Accept the absolute horror of the act as necessary for the prevention of another in the future. But you ONLY do that when death or serious direct harm is imminent without it and ONLY against the specific cause of that threat.
 
May 16, 2000
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At the time I volunteered to stop the Commie hordes it was not accepted that our altercation was ill motivated. I/we were there and fighting for our lives and those of our countrymen.

You came along later to read history and and put in a context we were not privy to. Under the same circumstances I would do the same today as I did back then.

You dream about that little Vietnamese girl running down the road after being napalmed. I have nightmares about it every night, but I would bomb her village again based on what I knew at the time.

It was accepted by millions. They protested, marched, refused, etc. It just wasn't accepted by those who would suffer personal financial impact, or those blinded by nationalism, or brainwashed to be their minions.

The folly of Vietnam, like Iraq, was KNOWN at the time. It just wasn't enough to stop it because the people in charge have no morals.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
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We have a core difference of opinion which is unresolvable. I believe those who fight for 'interests' as you call them are bad human beings, and contribute to evil and the negative state of the world. It's just another form of greed and egocentrism.

Judging by that criteria, US shouldn't have entered WWII. We all know what would happen then.
 
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May 16, 2000
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Not true.

A kid wins a war when he fights the bully, even when the bully eventually wins.

It's not the winning or losing that counts, it's the fighting.

Don't you ever forget that they attacked us at 9/11.

-John

An individual fight is NOT a war. A war is not a duel multiplied many times, it's an act of state. Two ENTIRELY different things.

BULLMOTHERFUCKINGSHIT 'they' attacked us on 9/11 you head up the ass 45IQ automaton. A small group of people almost entirely unrelated to Iraq committed an act of terrorism on 9/11. Not excusing it, just explaining it. Furthermore, if you base the validity of actions on instigating actions then quite frankly America had that one coming for fifty years of world-wide abuses and bullying.

If you don't like getting attacked then don't act in a manner that invites it...at least not beyond your borders which is the ONLY place a nation has ANY right to act.
 
May 16, 2000
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Judging by that criteria, US shouldn't have entered WWII. We all know what would happen that.

We were directly attacked by a specific nation with the aim of global conquest. We then came directly to the aid of other nations unable to mount a defense against the same directed attacks.

However, I do find some validity in the comparison in that Germany acted largely as a result of the abusive nature of the treaty of Versailles. In the same way, AlQaeda acted largely in response to decades of similar abuses by the United States and other western empires.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
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lol... go with that Prince of Wands.

How about Madrid, London, that place in Africa, the Cole.

Bunch of little Muslim fags, eh?

-John
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
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It was all our fault... we should cow-tow to Allah, and humanity in general.

-John