HeroOfPellinor
Lifer
- Dec 27, 2001
- 11,272
- 1
- 0
You're so intent on defending the cheater. Hmm.
I don't care if he was depressed and neglectful and boring and ugly and poor...SHE STILL CHEATED. She didn't file for divorce because she wasn't happy...she committed adultry. There is no gray area here...no room for any other explanation. She was in the wrong...period...the end. The only question now is how pathetic the guy who took her back is.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,967
- 19
- 81
I am not defending her....I am merely stateing why it would happen. No one knows what is really going on but somehow a group of barely experienced GEEKS would like to state so called FACTS on the matter.
I will also say from EXPERIENCE that the complaining party is usually the one to blaim...however I don't have the benefit of hearing the wife's side....yet you would just take it for granted the OP is totally honest and correct.
I am willing to bet many of the people commenting here have maybe 1-3 sexual partners if that....married young or possibly are still virgins and have no idea of what real life is about.
Å
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,929
- 142
- 106
I don't care if someone spells something wrong, as long as I can still read it, so don't worryBad spelling aside....You are one assuming that sex outside the marriage is more critical that what the other half did. Neglict, verbal assault, etc....all contribute. I have been through tons of women and am in my second marriage. I realize what REALLY happens and what REALLY is important in a relationship.
Cheating is much worse than neglect and/or verbal assault. It leaves permanent scars, whereas verbal assault, in one single act, will not be as harmful. If you're talking about verbal assault (or neglect) over a prolonged period of time, then that can be ameliorated by counseling, whereas cheating is a single act that has already occurred and cannot be taken back. Words can.
I don't see the difference. You, just as a kingpin, have placed sacred trust in someone (1st lieutenant or wife) to accept a role in the relationship. There are rules that are to be followed and never broken, or the relationship will end. Your man steals from you, you wack him. She cheats on you, the marraige is over. Breaking sacred trust should not be a hard concept to grasp.
Would your first marraige have worked out if you were not in the wrong, and she had cheated on you? Would you give her a second chance? If you did, do you think it would have failed or succeeded? Studies have shown that no, the marraige is unlikely to work if a spouse cheats and is given a second chance.
By not answering my question directly (i.e. If you neglected your wife, and she cheated on you twice because of this behind your back, would this be ok with you?) I am interpreting your response as a resounding "YES". Your statement ("[cheating] once or twice are usually the same") confirms the fact that once a cheater, always a cheater. All the more reason he should break up with the whore.
Those women you slept with, are you sure they are still with their husbands today? Studies say, statistically, no - if they told the husband. There is that other percentage who will cheat and keep it a secret.
So you're on AT for 10 hours a day, let's change the statement to what if you were on AT in every moment you were supposed to be spending with your wife (i.e. you are neglecting her). This would be a good enough reason for her to cheat twice w/out telling you, correct?
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,967
- 19
- 81
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
I don't care if someone spells something wrong, as long as I can still read it, so don't worry
Cheating is much worse than neglect and/or verbal assault. It leaves permanent scars, whereas verbal assault, in one single act, will not be as harmful. If you're talking about verbal assault (or neglect) over a prolonged period of time, then that can be ameliorated by counseling, whereas cheating is a single act that has already occurred and cannot be taken back. Words can.
cheating is worst than neglect or blantant verbal abuse?!?!
You are *assuming* one verbal attack vs one infidelity....I am not assuming anything but perhaps the OP is not showing the whole picture.
That is our difference you are painting the picture where she is wrong and he did everything right...I am saying how do we know?
Also as far as words, I'd say a direct and conscious st@b through words is worse that a meaningless romp, but again more than likely you have NO IDEA!
y0 kingpin y0! for the record you are assuming here that a 'mafia' type environment is based on no one screwing each other over. Who knows what the OP really did? 'Sacred trust' yeah....I doubt you ever rolled with a crew either....
Studies show that no marriage works really....what is your point? My ex-wife and I would have worked out if I allowed her to spend and she didn't....sex had nothing to do with it. Money did.
You asked me a question? directly even? where was that? You mentioned some dream of a DON and an underling stealing 1/2 his money...if that is the unrelated and non-direct question then I would find out why and if there is no good reason or this guy I didn't really know...I'd probably kill him...if it was a 20 year 'employee' or something to that effect I'd find out WTF.
Neither are, however, my experience and statistics are not the say. Both statistics say marriages fail...this is not a great datapoint.
Yes I would say you wife should cheat on you then and you were in the wrong providing she has mentioned (which always happens): "You are online again?" More often than not it's the husband/boyfriend who is found out to be trying to start affairs after the wife/gf has given up and had one.
Å
HeroOfPellinor
Lifer
- Dec 27, 2001
- 11,272
- 1
- 0
The problem with cheating that makes it so much worse is intent. This wasn't something that she did or said in the heat of the moment. She would have been giving this guy signs and flirting with him. She would have had numerous chances to put an end to it before it went any further, but she DECIDED to allow it to progress.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,967
- 19
- 81
You are clearly speaking from lack of experience.
Both the affairs I have had with married women took all of the span of a couple drinks at the bar for one and one company dinner out for the other. Both caught themselves after the fact yet one I had a second 'fling' with. Most affairs happen in the heat of the moment. You are not thinking of kids, your family, your friends, your SO at home...you are thinking of sex...once those endorphines/etc turn off then you go through remorse or clap your little hands and cheer you finally did it.
In general, when I went out to a club I usually had sex or close to sex with someone, I didn't go out to sit by myself. I am sure many were in relationships that didn't tell me so, and probably married as well. Many of the women I messed around with admitted to living with someone....this sort of goes with the statistic the about 30% of those you find in bars/clubs over mid 20's are in marriages/relationships.....something like the same figure for all online personals....
Å
HeroOfPellinor
Lifer
- Dec 27, 2001
- 11,272
- 1
- 0
See, I knew you have a reason to defend the cheater.
Had this lady been drunk, I'd have a shred more understanding. But she wasn't. And she did it twice. That's premeditation.
Anybody can get caught up in the moment. As a married person, putting yourself in a position to be tempted by inappropriate thoughts or getting yourself into situations, like bars or private dinners alone with someone, is making a conscious decision to have the temptation present itself.
I think he got it exactly right. A married woman makes a conscious decision to go to that club. She makes a conscious decision to flirt with another guy and another conscious decision to take it further than that.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,967
- 19
- 81
Are you guys just seeing what you want to see.
Re-read what I stated....one of these married women I ended up with after a company dinner. We were ALL there, small flirts were exchanged at first and the next thing I knew we were the last two there and left together. A couple hours later we got her car...she was upset, not drunk....however it did happen again. She was not going there planning on the affair....she was unhappy though. The second time she was also upset about it, but her divorce was under way by that point.
Å
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,967
- 19
- 81
Well no, because one time no club was involved and the affair was created during the span of a company dinner with about 20 other employees. I still am not sure how it all progressed but we ended up together. Then it happened again at a similar function later a while later while she was in the middle of the divorce she realized she needed.
Å
I don't give a sh!t about the circumstances.
It's not like she forgot she was married when she left the company dinner with you. She knew damned good and well what she was doing.
And, imo, you're an ass for screwing her. Any guy that would do that to another guy is a slimeball, imo. I've exchanged many a glance from women in the past but once I spot that ring, bam! All bets are off and that's the end.
You're sure spending a lot of effort in defending and rationalizing the mind of a cheater.
Hmm....wonder why?
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,967
- 19
- 81
For one I really doubt there were that many women you approached/approached you. While many people do go hunting for wedding bands, many don't even notice them....also not all married people wear rings and not all single people don't. There are many single women that will wear a band to minimize the guys that approach them.
Both women I ended up with may have possibilly told me they were married in the beginning, I can't say they did.....usually it was restated though have the act and something along the lines of 'I should never have done this' is also stated at that point. If you are saying 'Wonder why?' to say I am a cheater than no, that is a nice and easy cheapshot (yea! go you!)....but I have always either told my lovers from the start I was not going to be monogamous (I don't see dating someone or having sex with someone should be grounds for guaranteed monogamy, I think once that assumption is made it gets people staying in relationships for the wrong reasons)....when I am in monogamous relationships I will bring it up to my mates. When I was divorcing we had both agreed (my wife first had cheated which I was told about by quite a few people) that the divorce was going to take a while and we were both in agreement it was the right thing to do. However, before we were officially divorced we saw others and had sex with them...we also had sex with each other too. We had gone back to dating, however, it was not that we hated each other it was that in a long-term, serious relationship we were wrong for each other.
I have had close calls to cheating though....I have always stopped myself before sex happened...perhaps kiss or more happened prior, but nothing in the realm of sex. However, I wouldn't say had I let damaging relationships continue it wouldn't have progressed. I just know when to get out of a relationship and I look at in reality. I have dated a lot of women, all different types. I have lived with perhaps 5-6 if you don't just count staying over a few weeks/weekends. I have had 3 engagements, two I married, and one I divorced. All breakups on this level I initiated. I have been dumped though while dating...you date a lot it happens.
I am not defending anyone, like I said above she could be very wrong here. However, I am not going to be the ignorant one and assume that the OP is the only one correct here nor that they posted everything that has transpired....I will not give dead-set advice here as even though I have been a counsellor, there is no way I can know what the real story is....I will say this I have yet to talk to anyone that has admitted from the start any problems that were found out later on through discussion. In any relationship that has had to come to me for discussion about it, both parties have been guilty of certain things. What is usually comes down to is many people's perception is your life changes after marriage. Men think there wives will turn into sex machines and women often think the whole fairy tale comes true with a lavish lifestyle, shopping, vacations....these are just generalizations. I have also spoke with women whose husbands had no sex drive and men whose wife's would not work/do low-paying jobs and wanted more money at home.
Also I will also say when these problems are discovered a lot of times there is denial and a claiming that 'I am on her or his side' or that I misunderstood, or that they 'tricked' me also, etc. Depending on the answers I got would determine who I would recommend they see next (one with a degree in psychology as well as a speciality possibility in what I may have discovered)......I don't do this anymore, it was mostly as a young adult to give other young adults someone to talk too for free. Therapy is not cheap, but often very important esp when two people are not seeing eye to eye.
On the cheating part I will tell you that you and most here have no idea how that part really transpires. You paint this lust-filled fun romp where the person is happy and just doing it to spite their mate. Rarely does that happen and if that is the case then yes, it can very well be a control issue. Control is a basis for many unhealthy relationships today, a lot of people get into them thinking they will be able to 'make' the other person keep them happy, enjoy the security dual incomes bring, as well as an extra set of hands/eyes/ears....a lot of times the person doing this doesn't consciously know they are. Another common and bad reason is due to dependence on another and knowing they cannot stay with parents and/or another family member forever, so they find a replacement mother or father.
What usually happens in these 'cheating' situations is the wife or husband finally has someone that will listen and the sex part comes in a natural way and usually just happens. The hurt person will usually kiss or embrace and the outside party simply takes it as they would a kiss or embrace from another. The hurt person begins to feel 'loved' and is now not thinking they are married, that they have 2 kids at home, or that they will have to see this person at work for a long time after what transpires. The sex usually does happen and once over, reality comes back....regret and misery and guilt fall upon the 'cheater', chances are they know they did something wrong. The thing is sex and emotion are not something many can just switch off. Just like someone can't turn off their fear....you cannot always turn off your other emotions. However, I will say it's very easy to SAY you can.
Having desire is natural, acting on it is something an adult learns not to do automatically. They decide if the desire is proper. Once a person though becomes emotionally damaged rational thought becomes damaged as well.
It's easy for the people here who even if married are probably in young relationships, or old ones that may have problems (addiction to forum boards and chatting is real).....and of course you have the comedians that will say things they would never follow through with themselves nor possibly have even a g/f if they wanted to. Just the fact that most people are giving advice that wouldn't be the best even with a g/f yet alone wife says a lot. Sure you can dump her...there was never a real commitment, but even if that happens one should try to find out why.
Å
If the divorce was already on the way the marriage was over anyway. Big difference between cheating on someone and expecting that person to be faithful or sleeping around when your relationship has ended anyway.
Å ,
You're still missing out on one very obvious point. The women you slept with were MARRIED and they KNEW they were married. They did NOT just happen to forget. They made a CONSCIOUS decision to cheat on their spouse but, at the time, they didn't care about the consequences. Women are good at not feeling guilty.
If someone is unhappy in their monogamous relationship and they want to find someone else, they need to END the current relationship. To not do so first is a sign that the person is a slimeball.
You're still missing out on one very obvious point. The women you slept with were MARRIED and they KNEW they were married. They did NOT just happen to forget. They made a CONSCIOUS decision to cheat on their spouse but, at the time, they didn't care about the consequences. Women are good at not feeling guilty.
If someone is unhappy in their monogamous relationship and they want to find someone else, they need to END the current relationship. To not do so first is a sign that the person is a slimeball.
I don't mean to sound negative, but if she's cheating on you, then you must not be doing something right. I know that's not exactly what you need to hear right now, but part of being human is learning from your mistakes.
I've slept with a married woman before and I've asked her.. "why?" She told me that her husband was boring in bed and unexciting.
If the sex, the interaction, etc that you have with her is bland or consistantly uninteresting, then she is bound to find it somewhere else. Forcing yourself to stay with someone out of love is nothing more than pity. There is more than just love that makes a relationship work. Trust, excitement, wittyness, etc. Getting into a relationship, I try not to reveal everything about myself, otherwise it will make me vulnerable. Once the girl finds out all about me, I become uninteresting and the only thing left to talk about is, "so how was your day?".
All in all, don't be foolish enough to think that this will never happen again, because the relationship has been consistantly as is for 8 years, like you've mentioned.. Unless a week from now, you two are suddenly sky-diving and having crazy voeyeristic sex, etc, then she is only going back to the same boring life which will envoke her to cheat on you again. Don't hope for things to change - make it happen!!!
Good luck and I hope you don't take my post negatively, but rather as an insight of what I've experienced on my part.
I've slept with a married woman before and I've asked her.. "why?" She told me that her husband was boring in bed and unexciting.
If the sex, the interaction, etc that you have with her is bland or consistantly uninteresting, then she is bound to find it somewhere else. Forcing yourself to stay with someone out of love is nothing more than pity. There is more than just love that makes a relationship work. Trust, excitement, wittyness, etc. Getting into a relationship, I try not to reveal everything about myself, otherwise it will make me vulnerable. Once the girl finds out all about me, I become uninteresting and the only thing left to talk about is, "so how was your day?".
All in all, don't be foolish enough to think that this will never happen again, because the relationship has been consistantly as is for 8 years, like you've mentioned.. Unless a week from now, you two are suddenly sky-diving and having crazy voeyeristic sex, etc, then she is only going back to the same boring life which will envoke her to cheat on you again. Don't hope for things to change - make it happen!!!
Good luck and I hope you don't take my post negatively, but rather as an insight of what I've experienced on my part.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,967
- 19
- 81
You seem bitter about something. Do you speak for all women? WTF does "women are not good at feeling guilty" mean? They have no soul, morals, ???
Absolutely both married women I slept with had no previous plan to cheat. It happened, they were both upset they did it. Not jumping up and down on the bed, not happy.
Your rational is way off....the only thing you could say cheating guarantees is the person is HUMAN. Other than that books are written on the 'why' of that issue, and being a slimeball can be one of the topics.
Å
Corrected your quote there.
And, yes, my ex cheated on me and reading all the other threads up here and other people I know personally and it all fits a pattern. The women feel like they're not in love anymore and think they deserve to go outside the marriage to get those butterfly-in-the-stomach feelings again. They make a CONSCIOUS effort to find that. If they want that feeling again, they need dump their husband/b-f the adult way and move on. Why hurt someone else? Because women are Evil and Insane.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,967
- 19
- 81
The problem with talking to others in the situation is everyone wants to blame someone else and justify the situation....being it's a common explaination doesn't make it the right one.
Not feeling in love and searching for excitement is but one reason.
It's the same way guys try to say another guy seduced a woman they wished they could be with by only saying "I will be there for you" "You don't deserve that" "There are other guys out there that will treat you better".....chances are the woman liked the guy for other than just words.
The problem here is many look at their situation and think that is the only one. There are tons of reasons people grow unhappy with a relationship and sex/love is just one of those.
Å
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,929
- 142
- 106
Numbered for convenience.Originally posted by: alkemyst
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
I don't care if someone spells something wrong, as long as I can still read it, so don't worry
Cheating is much worse than neglect and/or verbal assault. It leaves permanent scars, whereas verbal assault, in one single act, will not be as harmful. If you're talking about verbal assault (or neglect) over a prolonged period of time, then that can be ameliorated by counseling, whereas cheating is a single act that has already occurred and cannot be taken back. Words can.
1 - Cheating is worst than neglect or blantant verbal abuse?!?!
You are *assuming* one verbal attack vs one infidelity....I am not assuming anything but perhaps the OP is not showing the whole picture.
That is our difference you are painting the picture where she is wrong and he did everything right...I am saying how do we know?
Also as far as words, I'd say a direct and conscious st@b through words is worse that a meaningless romp, but again more than likely you have NO IDEA!
2 - y0 kingpin y0! for the record you are assuming here that a 'mafia' type environment is based on no one screwing each other over. Who knows what the OP really did? 'Sacred trust' yeah....I doubt you ever rolled with a crew either....
3 - Studies show that no marriage works really....what is your point? My ex-wife and I would have worked out if I allowed her to spend and she didn't....sex had nothing to do with it. Money did.
4 - You asked me a question? directly even? where was that? You mentioned some dream of a DON and an underling stealing 1/2 his money...if that is the unrelated and non-direct question then I would find out why and if there is no good reason or this guy I didn't really know...I'd probably kill him...if it was a 20 year 'employee' or something to that effect I'd find out WTF.
5 - Neither are, however, my experience and statistics are not the say. Both statistics say marriages fail...this is not a great datapoint.
6 - Yes I would say you wife should cheat on you then and you were in the wrong providing she has mentioned (which always happens): "You are online again?" More often than not it's the husband/boyfriend who is found out to be trying to start affairs after the wife/gf has given up and had one.
Å
1 - Cheating is definitely worse than a malicious, direct statement. To reiterate, words can be rescinded, action cannot. No sht Sherlock, we don't know all the details of the story. I'm analyzing the situation from the facts he has provided, which currently translates into his wife cheating b/c he was depressed and didn't give her the attention she wanted (according to therapist, and assuming therapist has correctly analyzed the situation).
Your excuse that "BUT we don't know all the details!" is about as lame as someone saying that Martha Stewart didn't have insider information. We can ascertain enough from the facts, and the facts damn this man's wife for cheating on him using an avoidance escape mechanism vice telling him straight up that she wanted to be loved and needed more attention. It's a COWARD'S way out of her problems and violates a sacred trust that comes with marraige, analogous to an alcoholic drinking away his problems instead of dealing with them.
2 - Most mafia type environments, when involving made men, do not involve screwing each other over as an acceptable behavior. Just as marraige shouldn't involve breaking sacred trust either.
Condescending statements such as "y0 kingpin y0!", or "I doubt you ever rolled with a crew either" show your age. Oh wait, aren't you 33? And I was trying to make excuses for you, I should know better!
3 - No marraige ever works out? What study is this? Link? My grandparents must be aliens, b/c they've been married for over 55 years. And sorry to hear you were stuck with a materialistic b*tch in your first marraige, I know what it's like.
4 - If you read carefully, in my post I said "top man". That means your next in command guy, the man you trust who you know won't f u over.
You say if it was a 20 year employee you'd think WTF, and question him. Would you keep this man in your organization no matter what the explanation. I bet you wouldn't, just as you wouldn't keep a cheating wife.
5 - Just as I suspected. And why is it that marraiges fail when cheating is involved? Why should the OP try to save this marraige? IMO it's an impossible task, studies only validate this.
6 - Nuff said. You think neglect is cause for cheating on your spouse, I STRONGLY DISAGREE. So we can agree to disagree and have a :beer:
You can come up with a million reasons but it still does not excuse the women of intentionally cheating on their spouses. If she's hearing things she'd like to hear from another guy and not from her own guy, she needs to tell that to her husband, get into counseling and, then, if things haven't healed, divorce and move on.
You're coming up with all kinds of copouts and excuses.
Men cannot read women's minds. Communication is vital.
deerslayer
Lifer
- Jan 15, 2001
- 10,153
- 0
- 76
Sorry to hear man
Keep strong, I lost a cousin to a rotten marriage.
If it were me, her ass would have already been out the door, but I don't tolerate cheating at all.
Keep strong, I lost a cousin to a rotten marriage.
If it were me, her ass would have already been out the door, but I don't tolerate cheating at all.
alkemyst is justifying because not only has he been cheated on but also he has been a cheater plain and simple....this has nothing to do with number or relationships or experience rather a justification of one's actions.
honestly I still think seeing a second councellor is a good idea, and I would be surprised if the second came to the same conclusions, similar maybe but I doubt as much blame would be placed on him...
good luck.
honestly I still think seeing a second councellor is a good idea, and I would be surprised if the second came to the same conclusions, similar maybe but I doubt as much blame would be placed on him...
good luck.
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