Wife determined to do multi-level marketing, key risks?

[Clinkster]

Can I just nominate Tweak155 right now for ownage of the year for 2014? Seriously the dude is doing his MLM motivation crap right now. I bet he hopes some idiots will PM him to ask how he was making 6 figures at his "young" age in life with only selling coffee online a few hours a day.

He is most certainly counting on PMs towards his stupid scheme.

I'm really surprised this level of solicitation is allowed on a forum that gets upset over referral links.

 

[styrafoam]

A couple things on that.

MLMs often use religion to sell their business plans. The one I worked for, the owner always included Christianity when he was selling the plan. It was used as something to build trust with the mark. Pretty disgusting.

Also, you'll find that a lot of MLMs are based in Salt Lake City. Those businesses bring in massive amounts of money to the area. Part of the reason they're based there is because of Mormons. The evangelistic practices of Mormons very closely matches the way MLMs spread, so it's kind of a natural fit. Recruiting for MLMs is similar to missionary work, and requires the same selling technique.

I think the reason they are able to make so much money here would also be along the lines of large families. Families of 8-10 aren't uncommon. All they have to do is get in with one member of a family unit and they can probably touch 10-20 extended families, assuming the spouse's family is large. A particularly vile one going around right now is essential oils. You hear some of the most pathetic self affirmation garbage tied into that stuff, and the gullibility is off the scale. All of them have to be making piles of money on the top end though, Xango sponsors the local MLS team, Usana has their name tacked onto an amphitheater that most of the summer tours play, you can't drive for more than a five minutes without seeing an SUV with the sticker for some magical berry flavored swill stuck to the back window.

To the op, i would suppose the key risk is her getting stuck in a revolving door of buying product and attending seminars. Setting a max dollar amount may be a tricky situation, that's how the worst of these MLMs manipulate you. By making you think you haven't done or purchased enough. Its been said before in the responses here, but these people work really hard at convincing you that big money comes with blind faith, its always just around the corner. If things aren't going well its because you aren't working hard enough.
All i can suggest it to try and engage the wife with discussion about the realities of the whole thing. If there is truly money to be made, why would these people want to dilute their own opportunities to make a sale by recruiting new people? Why not just sell it all themselves and keep all of the opportunities for big money? What are the real reasons these companies avoid advertising? Ask who put the bug in her ear and tell her to take a good look at their situation. Are they successful, or are they still working a full time job? Is there any proof that anyone is successful?

 

[dabuddha]

Man this thread got awesome after I went to bed! :thumbup:

 

[Doppel]

Who knows why MLM, certainly not me. As I said earlier, we're basically beyond the point of trying to rationally assess this as a business prospect. The fact that she let me know in advance this time is an improvement; the last time it came up only after I asked her about it. She had asked me to bring her the credit card and I casually asked her what she was buying; I do this as a matter of routine just so I when I see transactions post to the account I know it was a valid purchase (it's never caused an issue before).

This time however, her response was that she was going to buy the $700 starter kit of cosmetics for a MLM program and had to complete the purchase within 2 hours to get her "bonus supplies" we had a long chat. Needless to say I was a bit upset because our standing agreement is to consult each other before large purchases (anything over a couple hundred dollars) as a courtesy. While trying to keep the discussion from getting too heated, I asked her questions about whether she had a business plan, how compensation would work, etc. and she agreed to defer going forward until she sorted these out. Until last night, when she brought this up again with a new company this time, and telling me she planned to proceed regardless even if she had to use personal "allowance" funds for the initial enrollment. She also dumped the returning to grad school thing on me at the same time.

Kindly withhold any suggestions of counselling, etc.

All I can say is you have my sympathy. If you don't have kids yet I would recommend taking a serious look at this relationship. I could not, just could not tolerate being with somebody like that. A couple of crazy ideas that they are intent on following and you're flirting with financial ruin.

---------------------

Anyway, the friend-ostracizing thing is real about these. I simply have a no-MLM policy. I am okay telling people that, too. Tell them early. If they ask why say you don't like to entangle personal relationships and business. It's a reasonable statement. Just don't do it, under any circumstances. Then you never need to attend any meetings or other such crap. I will say I have some pampered chef products that I like, but I didn't buy them for myself 😉

I didn't even know what MLM was until, many years back when I was young, I got a "job interview" as a financial planner, something I had no experience in but thought was interesting. It turned into a 2-3 hour sales pitch. It was obvious even to me with no outside help that the whole thing was total bullshit.

 

[BikeJunkie]

Afterwards she looked dejected and said "Everyone else I know was really really positive about this except for you guys."

Naturally, she made an emotional appeal to you rather than a presenting cogent argument.

I've never been presented with a sound list of pros detailing why a particular MLM engagement is worthwhile, respectable, and sustainable. The closest resemblance to that would be "well I made $$$ doing it, and so can you!." That's not a sound argument; that's an anecdote (and a highly suspect one at that).

I actually believe Tweak when he says he made bank for that short bit of time. But then, of course, it ended. He says it's because his "uplines" (assuming that's what they're called) found out he was engaging in another scheme. I call bullshit. Not on him, mind you - I don't doubt that's what he was told. But there had to be some other reason for letting him go, given how much money he was supposedly raking in for them. Whatever the reason, the scheme he was in (or the level at which he was in it) wasn't sustainable.

Which brings us to one very crucial point: You're not a business owner if some third party can arbitrarily steal it from you by a wave of their hand.

 

[BikeJunkie]

All I can say is you have my sympathy. If you don't have kids yet I would recommend taking a serious look at this relationship. I could not, just could not tolerate being with somebody like that. A couple of crazy ideas that they are intent on following and you're flirting with financial ruin.

I didn't want to go doom and gloom on the OP, but this has been at the back of my mind since I first read the thread. I seriously question the intellectual fortitude of someone who's capable of being swooned by an MLM campaign, which makes it very difficult to maintain respect for them. I value intellect nearly as much as I value good will, a chick who's smart gets an automatic 1 point boost on teh hotness. A chick who's into MLM goes straight to zero unless she can strip the bark off a stick with her cootie.

Anyway, the friend-ostracizing thing is real about these. I simply have a no-MLM policy. I am okay telling people that, too. Tell them early.

Yep. One thing that's lost on MLM'ists is just how insulting it is. When you come to me and propose your scheme as a business opportunity, you're telling me that 1) you see me not as a friend, but as someone to be leveraged, and 2) you think I'm just as stupid as you are.

 

[Tweak155]

Would you be willing to post a scan of a check you receive from your MLM, or some other proof of the money you are making?

As I've mentioned before, I no longer do MLM as a business. I am still a member of one due to signing up previously, I but I do not actively recruit or try to make sales for the time being. It's been 2 1/2yrs since I left the MLM I was successful in.

That said, here are screenshots of my last month of sales. This was 9/2011:

Merchant account (account needed to accept credit cards under your name):

Paypal sales (some people preferred PayPal, it's always good to have if you're running a sales website):

They're dated from August 2012 because I've had to dispel other doubters previously.

And the mods are free to monitor my PM's, you can quote this for truth. I will not promote any MLM but will simply answer questions about them and my previous experience. Same with my learning personal growth. I only requested PM because I want the person to be truly interested.

If you truly believe I am only trying to bait you, post your question here. If I find it honest enough I will reply.

 

[Tweak155]

I'd be curious to see proof simply because I have never seen proof of anyone doing well in an MLM. I understand mathematically that there are people at the top, but I have never actually seen proof, despite being introduced to several MLMs and dozens of people involved in them over the years.

You may have experienced this because we're told that if we disclose income and it is heard somewhere up the food chain, our account will be terminated. This is because the company does not want it to be construed as a guarantee of income.

They're allowed to say what they were previously doing or give vague information that does not specify exact amounts. For example, I knew one guy that said he replaced his job of $85,000/yr. His hopes is that people would interpret that as he makes more now, but in reality that isn't necessarily true, he could have just not liked working, and made enough to get by.

A lot of representatives will skate this line, but only if they're doing very well.

 

[Tweak155]

Misquoted.

The quote is, "The love of money is the root of all evil." Greed

I was just rewording as the quote is popular enough 🙂

 

[lxskllr]

This is because the company does not want it to be construed as a guarantee of income.

That's nonsense, and you know it is. They don't want others to know how poorly most do with these schemes. It ruins the magic.

 

[Tweak155]

That's nonsense, and you know it is. They don't want others to know how poorly most do with these schemes. It ruins the magic.

I've personally seen people get terminated, and I can think of at least one that was "diamond" status, so if that is true, they're at least sticking to what they tell us will happen.

And yes, the reason I stated is the reason they told us. It may or may not be the truth, but it is written in their guidelines and they WILL act on it.

 

[lxskllr]

I've personally seen people get terminated, and I can think of at least one that was "diamond" status, so if that is true, they're at least sticking to what they tell us will happen.

And yes, the reason I stated is the reason they told us. It may or may not be the truth, but it is written in their guidelines and they WILL act on it.

I don't doubt any of that. My problem is the reason they give. It couldn't be more transparent if it were made from Waterford crystal. Anything, anywhere not willing to stand up to public review can't be trusted. That's a clear sign things aren't as they appear.

 

[BikeJunkie]

This is because the company does not want it to be construed as a guarantee of income.

PLEASE tell me you don't actually believe that horseshit :biggrin:

Anything, anywhere not willing to stand up to public review can't be trusted. That's a clear sign things aren't as they appear.

Winner winner, chicken dinner

 

[Tweak155]

PLEASE tell me you don't actually believe that horseshit :biggrin:



Winner winner, chicken dinner

Nice quick edit.

The quote of course leaves out the sentence before out of convenience, but I was only trying to say what we were told, although I can see how I could have worded it better. Whether or not it is true is irrelevant for who I was replying to, it is what kept a lot of representatives *I KNEW* (including me) from disclosing their income.

If you see it as additional information how MLM is a scam, then at least I taught you something which you appear to believe is impossible.

 

[BikeJunkie]

That said, here are screenshots of my last month of sales. ... They're dated from August 2012 because I've had to dispel other doubters previously.

What do your personal affirmation books say about feeling compelled to prove yourself to strangers online?

 

[Tweak155]

What do your personal affirmation books say about feeling compelled to prove yourself to strangers online?

Nothing. And my "personal" affirmation book Think and Grow Rich is owned by 70 million people if the Wiki is accurate.

 

[BikeJunkie]

Nice quick edit.

Thanks. It deserved its own post 😉

The quote of course leaves out the sentence before out of convenience

I'm just trying to keep things concise and to the point so there's not much wiggle room... err... "misunderstanding."

If you see it as additional information how MLM is a scam, then at least I taught you something which you appear to believe is impossible.

What?

 

[Tweak155]

What?

You can better validate your reasons for disliking/hating/proving they're a scam.

 

[BikeJunkie]

Nothing. And my "personal" affirmation book Think and Grow Rich is owned by 70 million people if the Wiki is accurate.

So you've graduated from appeals to emotion to appeals to popularity. I suppose on the spectrum of logical fallacies, your new approach is a mild improvement.

Regardless, members of the church stomp mudholes in that 70 million, but it doesn't make the church any more trustworthy or credible. I'm sure 70M+ have also been burned by MLM's. That doesn't make them any more lucrative or sustainable.

 

[Tweak155]

So you've graduated from appeals to emotion to appeals to popularity. I suppose on the spectrum of logical fallacies, your new approach is a mild improvement.

Regardless, members of the church stomp mudholes in that 70 million, but it doesn't make the church any more trustworthy or credible. I'm sure 70M+ have also been burned by MLM's. That doesn't make them any more lucrative or sustainable.

I was simply highlighting how your referencing it as personal is odd. But missing the point is your strong suit as proven time and time again.

 

[BikeJunkie]

You can better validate your reasons for disliking/hating/proving they're a scam.

My reasons don't need any validation. In fact, they're not "my reasons" at all... they're facts borne out of decades of failed MLM ventures: burned relationships, wrecked financials, and FTC filings. All I've done is assembled them into easily digestible soundbites.

Conversely, the only tools at an MLM evangelist's disposal are the occasional anecdote and a closet full of platitudes ("personal growth", "unlimited wealth", "all the materialistic pursuits your heart can desire"). What's funny is that many of your posts in this thread read exactly like your stereotypical infomercial or entry level MLM presentation. So while my words aren't anything new, neither are yours. Most people have heard this shit slung a thousand times before.

But the bottom line (one of the many, at least) is that you've yet to truly reflect on why MLM's have their reputation and why you are so misunderstood.

 

[BikeJunkie]

I was simply highlighting how your referencing it as personal is odd. But missing the point is your strong suit as proven time and time again.

Says the guy who uses one fallacy after another to make his own points. And I can link you to concrete examples of you completely missing the point. I have, in fact. I'm just not sure you posses the tools necessary to recognize what's actually happened here. Sorry to be so blunt.

 

[Tweak155]

My reasons don't need any validation. In fact, they're not "my reasons" at all... they're facts borne out of decades of failed MLM ventures: burned relationships, wrecked financials, and FTC filings. All I've done is assembled them into easily digestible soundbites.

Conversely, the only tools at an MLM evangelist's disposal are the occasional anecdote and a closet full of platitudes ("personal growth", "unlimited wealth", "all the materialistic pursuits your heart can desire"). What's funny is that many of your posts in this thread read exactly like your stereotypical infomercial or entry level MLM presentation. So while my words aren't anything new, neither are yours. Most people have heard this shit slung a thousand times before.

But the bottom line (one of the many, at least) is that you've yet to truly reflect on why MLM's have their reputation and why you are so misunderstood.

Again, missing the point. You really think I was serious with that quip and the one before it? Whooossshhhh.

I firmly believe that you cannot be taught anything right now.

 

[Tweak155]

Says the guy who uses one fallacy after another to make his own points. And I can link you to concrete examples of you completely missing the point. I have, in fact. I'm just not sure you posses the tools necessary to recognize what's actually happened here. Sorry to be so blunt.

All I have to do to debunk your "concrete examples" is to link my posts, in order, in which they were stated and ignore your partial quotes and misrepresentations of what I said. Thus why I recommend to you time and time again to re-read the thread from the beginning until you understand it.

Your confusing my posts and taking them out of context is your problem, not mine.

 

[BikeJunkie]

ou really think I was serious with that quip and the one before it? Whooossshhhh.

Read: backpeddle. You seemed pretty serious about it here.

Hint: quotes, facts, and logical arguments are much more effective than baseless jabs at one's learning abilities. Given your own history in this thread of routine misunderstanding and forgetfulness, I'd say that's doubly true in your case.

All I have to do to debunk your "concrete examples" is to link my posts, in order, in which they were stated and ignore your partial quotes and misrepresentations of what I said.

You are free to quote where I've misrepresented you. As you can see above, linking to such things is really quite easy (when actual examples exist, that is).

Your confusing my posts and taking them out of context is your problem, not mine.

When everyone seems to misunderstand you, maybe they aren't the problem 😉 Since you're so keen on popular consensus, let me point out to you that while I may be the loudest voice in the thread, you're the one standing on an island.