MrDingleDangle
Lifer
yeah thats what i dont get...what sport allows a fan/reporter overturn a call...if there is no challange by the officials or the golfer she is playing with it should count...
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Wie diqualified from her first tourney
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yeah thats what i dont get...what sport allows a fan/reporter overturn a call...if there is no challange by the officials or the golfer she is playing with it should count...
But there is an air of "civility" and "fair play" in golf. There are hardly any judgement calls. Either it is closer to the pin or it is not.
The golfer is responsible for their own score (hence the signing)
She learned her lesson. I'm sure most PGA players have been disqualified sometime in their career.
Dems the rules. I'm sure she'll consult officials next time. You see it all the time in the PGA. They'll just call an official over "I need a ruling on this". Therefore it is the officials call and not the player.
-edit- I still think what that guy did was pretty dang low.
The golfer is responsible for their own score (hence the signing)
She learned her lesson. I'm sure most PGA players have been disqualified sometime in their career.
Dems the rules. I'm sure she'll consult officials next time. You see it all the time in the PGA. They'll just call an official over "I need a ruling on this". Therefore it is the officials call and not the player.
-edit- I still think what that guy did was pretty dang low.
GagHalfrunt
Lifer
In golf, there is a statute of limitations as to rules violations. Any infractions committed on one day can and will be assessed the next day if that's when they're discovered. There have been many incidents of players who have been DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard because it was later discover they had not counted the penalty strokes they deserved. That's the way golf works. The player is always responsible for their actions and they are supposed to know and adhere to the rules. The players are aware that whenever they sign a card they are attesting to every single thing on that card being 100% correct and that if the card is not 100% correct they're disqualified. This is not a surprise, it's not something that was sprung on her without warning. Wie took an illegal drop, Wie broke the rules, Wie signed the card, Wie was disqualified for it. The right thing happened.
It doesn't matter who noticed the infraction or when they notified the officials. Golf is a game of honor, it's conducted without a referee looking over everyones shoulder every second of the day. Because of that the players are held to high standards and assessed harsh penalties. Everyone knows that when they put the tee in the ground on the first hole. The outcome was EXACTLY, 100% CORRECT according to the rules of golf. If Wie doesn't like the rules she's free to take up tennis instead. A professional golfer should know how to take a legal drop and those who don't deserve the penalties they incur.
It doesn't matter who noticed the infraction or when they notified the officials. Golf is a game of honor, it's conducted without a referee looking over everyones shoulder every second of the day. Because of that the players are held to high standards and assessed harsh penalties. Everyone knows that when they put the tee in the ground on the first hole. The outcome was EXACTLY, 100% CORRECT according to the rules of golf. If Wie doesn't like the rules she's free to take up tennis instead. A professional golfer should know how to take a legal drop and those who don't deserve the penalties they incur.
meltdown75
Lifer
This is what I take issue with, and not only this fact but the manner in which this incident was brought to light. Over 24 hours after the fact, a reporter brings it up to an official at which time both of them visit the spot of the alleged infraction to inspect a divot mark to arrive at their conclusion. We're not even talking about a volunteer official or any type of authority whatsoever - just a golf writer apparently. I mean, I've heard of wanting to break the big story, but the fact that the individual in question gains notoreity for this incident makes it reek of shadiness and lack of journalistic integrity.
for the guy, really.Also, is there a deadline for reporting such infractions?
GagHalfrunt
Lifer
Originally posted by: meltdown75
This is what I take issue with, and not only this fact but the manner in which this incident was brought to light. Over 24 hours after the fact, a reporter brings it up to an official at which time both of them visit the spot of the alleged infraction to inspect a divot mark to arrive at their conclusion. We're not even talking about a volunteer official or any type of authority whatsoever - just a golf writer apparently. I mean, I've heard of wanting to break the big story, but the fact that the individual in question gains notoreity for this incident makes it reek of shadiness and lack of journalistic integrity.
Also, is there a deadline for reporting such infractions?
The deadline is until the tournament is over and the checks are cut. An infraction that takes place on Thursday morning can be penalized on Sunday afternoon. It can't be assessed the following week though. There have been instances where players have thought about certain actions they've taken during a tournament and realized that they might have taken an improper drop months after the fact. At that point they can't change the results or DQ themself, but they have donated their winnings to charity since they didn't deserve them.
The simple fact of the matter is that golf is a game of honor and integrity. There are no referees watching every move in the understanding that EVERYONE is a referee. Most times that only means the players and the caddies as most matches are conducted off camera and without a gallery. But in the case of public events like that then everyone watching on TV or on the site is a de facto rules official. If rules are broken the proper action will be taken no matter who notices it or what their job is.
For what it's worth, the reporter spoke to Wie about it after the round. She blew him off, claimed the drop was okay and didn't do anything about it. Then he went to the rules official the next day and they proved that it was indeed an illegal drop. Even when it was proven the drop was bad Wie said "I was pretty confident. If I did it again, I'd still do that. It looked right to me." Does that sound like a person that was contrite or that would have listened to a mere reporter? She brought this on herself. If you don't break rules you don't have to worry about Monday morning quarterbacks noticing it.
meltdown75
Lifer
I guess when she receives the information from the guy (which I was not aware of), she has two choices. 1) Tell him to ah heck off, etc. or 2) Agree with his assessment of the infraction and take a 2-stroke penalty before signing the card. Frankly, I don't think you would see any pros choosing the latter option, but perhaps since it was her first event, she should have forgone competitiveness and taken the penalty, placing all trust in the friendly, honest, rule-respecting reporter. Honour and integrity seems to fall a bit by the wayside when the individual again presents this information at the end of the final round, after Wie has already signed her card. Again, I just find the incident a tad strange. I'm not overly concerned with Wie's results, I could care less how she does although she's a magnificent talent.Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Originally posted by: meltdown75
This is what I take issue with, and not only this fact but the manner in which this incident was brought to light. Over 24 hours after the fact, a reporter brings it up to an official at which time both of them visit the spot of the alleged infraction to inspect a divot mark to arrive at their conclusion. We're not even talking about a volunteer official or any type of authority whatsoever - just a golf writer apparently. I mean, I've heard of wanting to break the big story, but the fact that the individual in question gains notoreity for this incident makes it reek of shadiness and lack of journalistic integrity.
Also, is there a deadline for reporting such infractions?
The deadline is until the tournament is over and the checks are cut. An infraction that takes place on Thursday morning can be penalized on Sunday afternoon. It can't be assessed the following week though. There have been instances where players have thought about certain actions they've taken during a tournament and realized that they might have taken an improper drop months after the fact. At that point they can't change the results or DQ themself, but they have donated their winnings to charity since they didn't deserve them.
The simple fact of the matter is that golf is a game of honor and integrity. There are no referees watching every move in the understanding that EVERYONE is a referee. Most times that only means the players and the caddies as most matches are conducted off camera and without a gallery. But in the case of public events like that then everyone watching on TV or on the site is a de facto rules official. If rules are broken the proper action will be taken no matter who notices it or what their job is.
For what it's worth, the reporter spoke to Wie about it after the round. She blew him off, claimed the drop was okay and didn't do anything about it. Then he went to the rules official the next day and they proved that it was indeed an illegal drop. Even when it was proven the drop was bad Wie said "I was pretty confident. If I did it again, I'd still do that. It looked right to me." Does that sound like a person that was contrite or that would have listened to a mere reporter? She brought this on herself. If you don't break rules you don't have to worry about Monday morning quarterbacks noticing it.
GagHalfrunt
Lifer
Nope, quite wrong. When informed of a potential rules breach there is not a single pro on earth (other than Wie perhaps) that would sign a card without looking into it. A reporter or anyone else does not have the power to impose penalties. They merely have the power to have a true authority look into it and that's what should happen. The sequence of events is:
1) Somebody notices the alleged infraction
2) The person notifies the player or a rules official
3) If necessary the rules official notifies the player or the player notifies a rules official that there is a question that needs to be investigated.
4) The player is instructed not to sign the card until the case is decided.
5) After the round the rules official, player, caddies and whatever witnesses talk about it and go over any video evidence that exists.
6) The rules official makes a determination on whether or not a penalty will be assessed. In the event that there is no incontrovertable proof of the foul the official sides with the player and no penalty is assessed. It's like overturning a call in football with the instant replay. You need PROOF to assess the penalty, close doesn't count.
7) The player then signs the card with the penalty or without it.
GagHalfrunt,
You seem to have a lot of knowledge on this aspect of the game.
I've always wanted to be an official or get more involved when there are event here at Valhala in Kentucky.
My knowledge only comes from the aspects of playing serious golf and "somewhat" knowing the rules and glancing over the book. Plus when you're playing for money with your buds its always fun to argue over the rules.
So from my understanding it is ultimately up to the player to sign the card, by the rules. Sign the card with an infraction...so be it.....DQ. But you can't discount the drama of the whole situation.
But this brings up an interesting point. If the pin is long left from your ball (on the right) and you drop from from what any person deems "looks" farther from the hole but wind up closer to the pin.........
You're still closer to the pin, no matter what the placement or green.
I still agree that she busted a basic rule. But man, sometimes that is hard to tell unless you step it off. Even in my circle you make absolutely sure there is no way in hell the ball is closer to the hole. You pick your spot and make damn sure it isn't closer.
Me personally anytime I have to drop I am very careful and try to play the best shot I can given the cirumstances. The game takes on a whole nutter level when you play stricly by the book. We sign and attest each others cards and consult with one another.
You seem to have a lot of knowledge on this aspect of the game.
I've always wanted to be an official or get more involved when there are event here at Valhala in Kentucky.
My knowledge only comes from the aspects of playing serious golf and "somewhat" knowing the rules and glancing over the book. Plus when you're playing for money with your buds its always fun to argue over the rules.
So from my understanding it is ultimately up to the player to sign the card, by the rules. Sign the card with an infraction...so be it.....DQ. But you can't discount the drama of the whole situation.
But this brings up an interesting point. If the pin is long left from your ball (on the right) and you drop from from what any person deems "looks" farther from the hole but wind up closer to the pin.........
You're still closer to the pin, no matter what the placement or green.
I still agree that she busted a basic rule. But man, sometimes that is hard to tell unless you step it off. Even in my circle you make absolutely sure there is no way in hell the ball is closer to the hole. You pick your spot and make damn sure it isn't closer.
Me personally anytime I have to drop I am very careful and try to play the best shot I can given the cirumstances. The game takes on a whole nutter level when you play stricly by the book. We sign and attest each others cards and consult with one another.
GagHalfrunt
Lifer
My knowledge of the rules comes the hard way. I'm not a rules official, I just play a lot of tournament golf and have run afoul the rules more often than I like. The rules of golf are like the US tax code. Everyone knows a little bit, but very few people understand it all. Even the rules officials miss some things and the players are generally clueless. Mostly we know how to take proper drops, know how to mark our ball and know not to carry more than 14 clubs. The rest of it we learn when we get DQ'd for breaking a rule we didn't know existed. I got DQ-d from my 2nd District Championship for treating a lateral hazard as a normal water hazard and dropped in the wrong place. I wasn't cheating, I just misread the red stakes and the yellow stakes and broke the rule inadvertantly. Poof, just like that I was gone. There's not a single tournament golfer on earth that has not been DQ-d sometime in their life. It happens and it's rarely any attempt to cheat or to gain an advantage. The rules of golf are a major bitch and it's easy to mess up.
The drama of the whole situation here was it that was Michelle Wie. Would anyone notice if it was one of the 1,000 Korean players named something Kim? Heck, this weekend Kevin Stadler was DQd from his tournament for having a club in his bag with a bent shaft. He didn't know about it and didn't even hit it, but the club was non-conforming because of the damage and he was out. Did anyone even notice? Nope, cause he isn't a 16 year old girl.
PlatinumGold
Lifer
what sucked about it was he called it in AFTER the fact. 1 day to be exact. if he had mentioned it that day, mb she doesn't sign off on the card and takes the penalty. that's TOTAL bs that the LPGA allows for mail in refereeing. that really takes away from the spirit of the game, a hell of a lot more than the stupid drop she took. that 1 ft or 3 inches, whatever it was, was not intentional cheating, the guy that reported it said so.
it was just stupid. lpga should have just said, hey, it is what it is. we can miss calls just like any other sport.
LOL at the tax code comment.
But its like tiger being in the hunt for a major and then getting DQ'ed. The drama makes for good TV/sports reporting. We both have seen some funky stuff with the rules, I'm sure you much more than I.
Reference one time when my ball was up against a sand trap rake on a fairway bunker and I said I could move the rake - ball moved. Boy we had fun with that one. I still don't know the proper ruling.
Maybe, but the rules of golf are set in stone. There is no instant reply. What other sport do you know of that requires a signature?
I'm not disagreeing as I think the dude is a sleazebag. But the rules are da rules. I've seen guys get a stroke when the wind blew their ball on the putting green.
GagHalfrunt
Lifer
It doesn't matter if it's an intentional attempt to cheat or a simple misunderstanding. The rules don't expect the officials to be mind readers and to be able to magically discern what the player intended to do, they are only concerned with what the player actually did. Breaking the rules is breaking the rules regardless of intent. You also need to read the thread. The reporter talked to Wie about it that day. She didn't do anything about it, so he then went to the rules officials the next day. She had the chance to protect herself from disqualification and passed.
there is also one other thing here--Bamberger is a MUCH respected member of the "media" on tour. They love him. He is not like any other reporter (except maybe Ron Sirak.) Any player knows if Bamberger (a former caddie) approaches them about a breach, they better take it seriously. It's not like it was Suzy Kolber or Tim McCarver. He is respected and liked. There is no possible way that anyone with ANY knowledge of the situation can think he was trying to stir up trouble. He's not Jim Gray.
Let's not forget that earlier in the tourney MW got the most ridiculous ruling possible from an official. She got a drop because "she might be allergic to bees." That's right. Might be. And she was crowned with roses for knowing the rules so well that she could pull this off. Oops. Maybe she isn't so good with the rules. It goes both ways. As probably the only person on this board other than Gag to have played competetive golf (4 US Am's, 1 Mid-Am) I concur with him. If you haven't been DQ'ed, you don't play tournament golf!!
meltdown75
Lifer
very good article.
Thanks for the discussion Gag and others - the one positive to be taken from this is that even though Wie received "Tiger coverage" last weekend (not sure if she was shown more than Sorenstam, although from what I watched, it was at least an equal amount of time) - it gives us an opportunity to examine what happened and better educate ourselves on such situations. So at the very least, the media spotlight creates a chance to learn something.
The key is that she will now always consult a rules official when in doubt, and also when she is not in doubt, just to ensure correctness. It slows down play, and introduces bureacracy to the game, but it is the only way to ensure you are not at fault for something. I've had to have groups play through me in tournaments, and playing partners angered because of the delay to call in rules officials, but it is a necessity sometimes.
Better yet ... keep it on the short stuff, and you will have little need for the offical rulings 🙂
Better yet ... keep it on the short stuff, and you will have little need for the offical rulings 🙂
But have you seen guys booted from a tournament when some gumshoe reporter decided after the tournament ended to report that he saw the wind blow the ball when no one else was watching closely enough?
I don't think anyone is disputing the rules.
I also don't think anyone is disputing that Bamberger is a creep.
I don't think there's any dispute at all, actually 🙂
When she insisted that the drop was legal, couldn't he have said "OK, but I have to report this. Let's go get an official to make a ruling before you sign your card..." ?Instead he slept on it, did some "investigative journalism" and then took it further.
I don't know if his hesitation was malicious or motivated by the desire to break the big story (I have my suspicious, but only Bamberger knows the real truth), but his hesitation cost Wie more than it should have.
GagHalfrunt
Lifer
Oddly, that was the right ruling, but the wrong reason. Rule 1-4/10 covers dangerous situations such as bees, fire ants, snakes and gators. The player is always entitled to relief if his health is in danger from animals. However he is not entitled to relief from anything growing like thorns, poison ivy, poison oak, poison sumac etc even if those plants might be hazardous to his health and even if he is allergic to those plants making it a potentially serious risk. So Wie was entitled to relief from the bees and her getting a drop was the proper ruling, but that "might be allergic" highlights the problem with Wie. She did not understand the rules well enough to know that she was entitled to taking a drop away from the danger, so she invented a false excuse like "might be allergic" to attempt to weasel a free drop anyway. I'm going to try that in next years US Amateur. "Hey, mister rules official, I might be allergic to heavy rough. Can I take a free drop out in the fairway?"
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