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Why won't honda make a manual v6 accord sedan
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Don Vito Corleone
Elite
Okay, allow me to rephrase: 100% of people who choose to drive automatic when they could acquire an otherwise-identical car with a stick (other than drag racers) are not enthusiasts. And, for what it's worth, I do not regard the new Marauder or the Dakota R/T (0-60 in 9.5 seconds!) as true enthusiast's cars.
I know you, NFS4, love cars, but I have previously read, and been amazed by, your fondness for automatics. Have you ever driven stick for any meaningful length of time? I have disliked automatics ever since owning my first stick-equipped car (a 1985 Toyota SR5 wagon, back in college), and I would never buy any vehicle with an automatic, with the possible exception of a full-sized truck or a very large luxo-mobile like an S-series Merc or 7-series BMW. I would not, for example, buy an RS6, since it is not available with a stick, when its more genuinely sporting competitor, the M5, is. I can't honestly say I have driven an F1-equipped Ferrari or an SMG-equipped M3, so I can't speak intelligently as to whether I would enjoy such a setup.
NFS4
No Lifer
I never said I had a fondness for automatics...it's just that they are not as evil as people make them out to be. Certain vehicle types just lend themselves to automatics (minivans, sport-utes, pickups, large sedans, wagons, etc.). There's nothing wrong with manuals, but like I've said before, the typical American doesn't want to be bothered given our fondness for cupholders in our cars, eating in the car, DVD navigations sytems, and our love of talking on the phone while driving🙂
Unless I'm driving a sporty car or a sports sedan, I see no obvious need for a manual transmission...especially for day to day driving and commuting. Gas is relatively cheap and the mileage difference between automatic/manual transmission vehicles is not as big as it once was. Also, auto transmissions don't cost an an arm and a leg over manual trannies.
NFS4
No Lifer
He didn't say sports car...he said that enthusiasts didn't drive automatics.
And Don_Vito, where'd you get your BS 0-60 numbers for the Dakota R/T? It does 0-60 in 7.1 seconds. I'd like to know where you got your number:
http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/highperf.html
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
I don't think that's what he meant - I think he was referring to my question about your experience driving stick. I am not trying to pick on you, but even your Camry would be 100% more fun with a stick - even very pedestrian cars like Civics and Neons can be fun to drive with a stick. IMO, NO four-cylinder car on earth is any fun to drive with an automatic, but many are quite entertaining with a stick. So, have you ever driven stick for any length of time?
For what it's worth, I did not learn to drive stick until I got a car equipped with one, the summer after my freshman year of college (I was 18). I always loved cars, and had read dozens of times that a manual transmission was more satisfying, but until I drove one a lot, I never exactly understood it. Now, as I said, I honestly can't imagine buying a car with an automatic.
NFS4
No Lifer
Ohh, I can drive a stick, it's just that I prefer to drive an automatic. I mean, I drive a fuggin' Camry 😀 Not exactly a "hot rod" although it's quick enough for me with the auto. I'm not a person that drives insanely fast. Now if I had a 3-Series, or a A4, I'd most definitely get a stick, but look at what I regularly drive:
Toyota Camry LE
Toyota Highlander
Ford F-150
Ford Taurus Wagon (on occasion)
Do you think I give two craps about having a manual transmission in any of those vehicles? HELL NO 😀
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
I just don't get it. The Camry, in particular, would be worlds more fun with a stick. The F-150 would be a bit of a pain with a stick, and the Highlander does not offer one, although it would make the vehicle much better to drive IMO if one were available (I have two friends with newer Pathfinders, one manual and one automatic - the stick is far more interesting to drive). The Taurus is probably unsalvageable in terms of being fun to drive.
On balance, I just can't understand how anyone who enjoys driving would ever prefer an automatic. You make it sound as though you don't like being involved in the driving process, which to me is essentially inconsistent with enoying driving.
To each his own, I guess. Happy trails, in any event!
Zenmervolt
Elite member
The Volvo 760 GLE has a straight six, which is close enough. Not all standard-tranny cars are 4-cylinders, you know.
ZV
NFS4
No Lifer
You're not listening to me. I said, if I had a vehicle that lent itself to a manual transmission, I would choose it in a heartbeat (3-Series, A4, Boxster, etc). But I don't have any vehicles like that. A Camry in itself is NOT a sporty vehicle no matter what you want to call it. It doesn't have a sporty suspension or engine. IMHO, a manual transmission just DOESN'T suit the vehicle.
A Highlander?? Come on!! A 3800 lb SUV is NOT stick material IMHO. Also, a Highlander is NOT a sporty vehicle.
The point is, I would choose a stick if the vehicle itself lent itself well to a stick. IMHO, if the vehicle doesn't have an sporting aspirations, I'm not gonna waste my time with a manual on it b/c the "whole package" isn't there.
An A4 has the "whole package." A 3-Series has the "whole package." A Boxster has the "whole package." The Altima and Maxima do to some extent, but a Camry 4-banger with a stick just ain't right IMHO. It's like putting lipstick on an elephant.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
I think we just differ in our opinion - I am listening to you, I just completely disagree. A Camry (or Accord, or whatever) CAN be sporty with a stick - I had a blast zooming around the Santa Cruz mountains with my 14-year-old Accord with 200,000 miles when I was in law school. Similarly, I had endless fun cruising around in my 5-speed-equipped '85 Toyota SR5 in college, even with its whopping 74 BHP! The same cars with automatics would have been less exciting than watching paint dry. Sporting aspirations are vested in the driver at least as much as they are in the car, IMO. If you insist on the "whole package" before you want a manual, well, you and I will have to agree to disagree.
UNCjigga
Lifer
Hmmm, my mom's old 760 Turbo had a 4-cyl or 5-cyl...but definately NOT a 6 cylinder (stupid Volvo misnomer.) Maybe the GLEs actually have 6-cyls that are LESS POWERFUL than the Turbo! The point I was making was that Honda DOES offer a 4-cyl car with a manual tranny, and a V6 Accord Coupe with 6-speed will be available for the 'enthusiasts'. Honda does not need to offer a V6 stick for the Accord Sedan because their customers don't want one.
ACURA'S customers, on the other hand, WOULD like to have a fast, powerful 4-door sedan with a manual transmission (or at least an 'auto-manual' with clutchless gear selection.) For this reason they are making the TSX, which is a sport-luxury version of the Euro/JDM Accord (smaller than the American Accord.)
UNCjigga
Lifer
You have to admit that most of the sportiness (objective--not the 'sporty' feel you get from holding a shift knob 😛) comes from the fact that a manual transmission offers an extra gear. It is important to remember that the new Accord auto-tranny does have five gears. My dad's MDX has a 5-speed auto-tranny mated to a 240hp V6 and that feels hella sporty to me. Since the Accord engine is rated for the same horsepower, I can only imagine it would feel even sportier with the lower cg and less weight!
bolido2000
Diamond Member
Wrong! Stick is not sportier because of an extra gear. The extra gear is just an overdrive and you don't use it to accelerate, but to cruise and save gas.
Stick is sportier because you can downshift whenever you want, instant throttle response, more drivetrain efficiency to handle the power. Note that the irony is that automatics shifts faster than schumaecher could ever dream, but stick still gives better perfomance because it lacks the torque converter.
On a side note I have heard that some turbos perform better in theory with automatics because of the way the boost increases...forgot the specific reason
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
Jeez, I sure hope I DON'T have to admit to that - to me the extra gear has exactly zero to do with it, and I can name any number of cars equipped with 4-speed manual transmissions that are far more fun to drive than, say, a Jaguar S-type, with its fancy 6-speed automatic. Your dad's MDX is a very nice SUV, but its auto-manual transmission does not offer a driving experience comparable to a true manual transmission.
And most autos have an extra gear called overdrive too. So what you have in most trannys is a manual with 4 gears and an overdrive gear=5 or an auto with 3 gears and an overdrive gear=4,some still come with only three.
edit/
oops, hit reply too soon.
Having an extra gear is one of the reasons that manuals are usually more sporty. The more time you keep the engine in it's powerband, the more power it's going to transmit to the wheels. The 5 speed auto closes the gap....then there's 6 gear manuals.
I can't believe that people here talk about the Accord as not being a "driving enthusiast's car". Of course its not. Its meant to be a balance (or compromise) between many things. Reliability, gas mileage, family car, 'perfromance sedan', etc..But its roots has always been a family car that is ultra reliable and would stay that way for many years. You want an 'enthusiast' car? Buy an s2000. Styling is also arguable since the styling purpose of the Accord is not to immediately wow you with cheesy styling cues like most American cars. Its styling is deliberately subdued so it doesn't grow old too fast. They DO grow on you. Those 1980's Accords look a lot better than those 90's turtle-back Ford Tauruses. As for automatics vs. stick, stick is sure fun but when you drive to work everyday, pick up the kids, go buy something, automatics are a God-send. Maybe in the outbacks of redneck country you can rev up that stick shift but in the daily grind of Los Angeles traffic or San Francisco ( have you tried parallel parking in a steep hill with a stick-shift? Or get out of one?), your legs would grow nice and strong working that clutch😀. Honda is a company that makes cars to make money and both Honda and Toyota are very profitable compared to American car companies because they made reliable, 'boring' vehicles, not 'enthusiast' cars.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
I lived in San Francisco for five years, and drove a car with a stick when I lived there. I did not find it unduly stressful, psychologically or physically, and I would not have traded it for one equipped with an automatic (partly because, like LA, San Francisco has some glorious, fun driving roads within a few minutes of the city). I did get pretty good with the handbrake in starting on steep hills, though. I suppose I would not want to drive a car with a very heavy clutch in heavy traffic, but those kinds of cars are the exception, rather than the rule.
Do you spend more time on those 'glorious, fun driving roads' than traffic clogged ones? If you don't find driving with a stick around LA and SF more stressful COMPARED to an automatic, then you are an exception rather than the norm. Most people don't get to enjoy their driving; they just want to get from point A to B with the minimum of fuss.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
I don't disagree with your last statement, but I am not "most people," nor is any other driving enthusiast. I do not find it onerous to drive with a stick in traffic, and I am more than happy to tolerate the slight inconvenience in exchange for the driving pleasure I experience the rest of the time. Perhaps if I drove a Viper, or some other car with a very heavy clutch, I might find the inconvenience more meaningful, but frankly I think that anyone who finds it "stressful" to drive a modern car with a manual in traffic is an awfully delicate flower, and definitely better off with an automatic. I will cheerfully accept the proposition that most people do not enjoy driving, but I do, and I prefer to be engaged in the driving process, rather than being isolated from it.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
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