Why Windows Genuine Authentication is Bad

[stash]

Phil, WGA is another invasion of privacy whether anyone thinks so or not. How do you know M$ isn't getting other information from your PC and how do you know that they are?

I know that this will mean nothing to you, as I am just a Microsoft shill, but here is what is collected during WGA.

OEM product key
PC Manufacturer
OS version
PID/SID
BIOS info (make, version, date)
BIOS MD5 Checksum
User Locale (language setting for displaying Windows)
System Local (language version of the operating system)

I'm sure you don't believe that's all that is sent, but that's it. All of that is public information, so I fail to see how it is an invasion of privacy.

 

[stash]

[Just for the record, I'm behind hardware and software firewalls and I don't think me not getting Windows Updates for a month or two will have much effect on viruses on the net. Although, if I'm wrong I hope someone will please let me know. [/quote]

Almost forgot. You're wrong. A firewall won't protect you against a malicious website. A firewall won't protect you against an instant message worm. A firewall will not protect you from something in email. And a firewall will not protect you when your friend brings his computer over and plugs into your network.

Not updating your PC because you want to make some sort of statement against Microsoft business practices is just asinine, I'm sorry. You only hurt yourself.

Edit: I see you are running a software firewall as well, so if your friend does come over, you would be protected as long as the firewall is configured correctly. So my apologies.

You should still update though.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: SkaarjMaster
Kudos to yukichigai and Varun for taking the time to run with ball and explain everything that really shouldn't have needed an explanation. Although, there is one thing I have to agree we really can't do much about right now"

"You buy the license to use the software. It's their software, they choose how it can be used. Don't like it? Buy consumer friendly software."

I don't like it, but I understand it as it applies to all software including games.

Holy crap! 37,100+ posts!

Yeah, I have a lot of free time.

If you don't like it, do something about it. Use Free and Open Source Software.

 

[SkaarjMaster]

Originally posted by: STaSh
[Just for the record, I'm behind hardware and software firewalls and I don't think me not getting Windows Updates for a month or two will have much effect on viruses on the net. Although, if I'm wrong I hope someone will please let me know.

Almost forgot. You're wrong. A firewall won't protect you against a malicious website. A firewall won't protect you against an instant message worm. A firewall will not protect you from something in email. And a firewall will not protect you when your friend brings his computer over and plugs into your network.

Not updating your PC because you want to make some sort of statement against Microsoft business practices is just asinine, I'm sorry. You only hurt yourself.[/quote]

I also have a virus scanner (e-mail scanner, IP scans their e-mails as well) that is always active and I don't use any type of instant messaging. I use Ad-Aware, Spywareblaster and Spybot as well. The only time someone is plugged into my network is when I'm building a system at my house and it's usually a clean install. So I guess that just leaves a malicious web site. What exactly protects against that?

n0cmonkey, I'll be getting Linux in some form for my next system! Since the Unreal-series games seem to always have a Linux version, then I should be set! Does Nero have a Linux version?

 

[yukichigai]

Originally posted by: STaSh

If MS truly wanted to make it easy for people to know whether or not they've got a pirated copy of Windows they would simply include a non-disabling WGA check on every download avenue, or at least WU/MU and AU. I don't buy this "WGA is for your protection" stuff because if I can figure out a better method than what's current then I'm sure plenty of people at MS did as well. There's some other motivation here, be it greed, marketing, or brain slugs

I still contend that it does protect consumers from being ripped off, as drag mentioned above. I'm not privvy to any financial data, but I would think any increase to Microsoft's bottom line through WGA would be negligible. Why? Because most customers who fail the WGA check will be eligible for a free license from Microsoft.

I'm not saying the move is necessarily motivated by profits, nor am I saying it doesn't in some way provide a means for consumers to find out whether or not their copy of Windows is pirated. All I'm saying is that from a logical standpoint the motivation behind the move can't be simply protecting the consumer. This is an ineffective method of piracy prevention, consumer protection, profit increase, etc. The only thing I can tell for sure is that it makes computer security a little more difficult which, as I said, is something a company like Microsoft should be working to avoid. Like the plague.

On another note, if MS really wants to protect their OS against piracy, why don't they just go the route I've seen many other companies go and include a hardware dongle which controls access to the OS? Something like a USB pass-thru that contains your CD Key. A number of programs at work use the technology and while it's not impossible to get around it's damn difficult. Far more difficult than current tech.

Again, if I can figure this out I'm sure someone else at MS did as well. Why they haven't acted on any of this is beyond me.

 

[Varun]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Varun
OK I'll bite

WGA is there to protect you. It isn't designed so much to be a way to reduce piracy. It is designed to let consumers know if they unknowingly purchased a counterfeit version of Windows.

How does it protect me again? It protects Microsoft and only Microsoft. It is another step in reducing piracy so that they can have higher profit margins. It would only protect me if somehow they were able to snuff out piracy and decided to reduce the absurd price an average person such as myself has to pay for Windows - and that's not going to happen on either side of the equation. If I bought a Dell, I would get Windows for almost nothing, however if I just want Windows and not the Dell, I have to pay through the teeth for it.

People don't like it when software scans their computer and sends information about it to a company. It is an invasion of privacy, and people just don't like it. Remember Intel with their CPU serial numbers set up to be sent over the internet? That went over like a lead balloon because people get tired of companies poking trying to track information about you.

So you are all ears? If I buy a copy of Windows, I should be able to install it on every computer in my house. If I buy a spatula, there isn't any EULA saying once I use it in a frying pan, it has to stay with that frying pan. If I buy a car, I can let whoever I want drive it. This is especially true if Microsoft is going to keep charging crazy prices for their operating system to your average consumer, and at the same time practically giving it away to Dell and the like.

So to summarize:
1) WGA is not there to protect me
2) WGA is there to protect Microsoft's profit margin and share prices
3) If Microsoft didn't charge so much for their operating sytem, less people would pirate it in the first place.

They're a corporation, of course they're there to protect themselves and their profit margin. :roll:

You buy the license to use the software. It's their software, they choose how it can be used. Don't like it? Buy consumer friendly software.

Quoting myself:

There are plenty of ways around it that don't involve working around stuff like this.

Hint: Each word above is a solution.

I agree completely with you, my point is WGA is not there to protect me. I understand that I buy a license to use software in a way in which a corporation decides is best for me. What I don't like is the license changing after I have agreed to it.

If there was another OS out there I could game on I would have switched long ago. As it stands I have to keep XP Pro since I do enjoy gaming. My Linux box will be running this week however I will only use that for a webserver and something to play around with.

I run a legit copy of XP. I am not worried about WGA failing (in fact it already passed) I just agree with some other people that this is yet another step in the wrong direction for Microsoft. The world is starting to embrace open source, yet Microsoft keeps moving steadily in the other direction.

OEM product key
PC Manufacturer
OS version
PID/SID
BIOS info (make, version, date)
BIOS MD5 Checksum
User Locale (language setting for displaying Windows)
System Local (language version of the operating system)

If this was really about just piracy and illegal copies of Windows, would they not just need the Product Key and make sure it's legit? Seems like a lot more info gathered than really needed. How is any of this public knowledge?

I've been a supporter of Microsoft for a long time. I really think XP is a great product, and many of their other products are great too. I like Office (not as much as Corel), I love Microsoft Keyboards... stuff like this just gets on my nerves.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) If Microsoft didn't charge so much for their operating sytem, less people would pirate it in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I hear this argument a lot, and its crap. Software that costs a couple bucks is pirated all the time.

Is $100 really an absurd price for Windows? If your wallet can't handle that, there are certainly other options out there, as n0c mentioned

I don't think it's a crap argument. I never said NO ONE would pirate it - I mean really that is never going to stop, however I'd be willing to bet a lot more people would purchase a legit copy to save the hassles that come with pirated software.

$100 doesn't buy me a copy of XP. It purchases an upgrade Home Edition, or OEM (with a list of license restrictions)

If I want to buy a copy of Windows Home, it's closer to $200 for the retail version, with Pro a bit more than that. So to buy a copy I can use on any new computer I build is a lot more than $100.

And yes I still think that $100 is too much. We are talking about a piece of software that every single computer requires. This isn't Half Life 2, where they sell it at around $60 to the handful of people that purchase it (handful as compared to Windows). Look at how much money Microsoft makes every year and tell me that they couldn't lower the cost of their software and still make a profit.

And to answer your second part of that quote, no there certainly isn't other options out there. Linux is improving quite a bit but it still doesn't play games without emulation - mainly due to proprietary DX which we have already talked about.

 

[stash]

$100 doesn't buy me a copy of XP. It purchases an upgrade Home Edition, or OEM (with a list of license restrictions)

What do you think you get on that Dell?

Of course retail costs more...its uh, retail.

 

[Varun]

Stash I know you aren't going to understand any of the points made. You gloss over everything (like the fact that WGA pulls way more information off the PC than it needs to) and pick out something like

"What do you think you get on that Dell?"

I can buy OEM Home Edition for about $100

I could buy a Dell 2400 (POS I know but whatever) including monitor and free printer + OEM Home Edition for $299

So you are telling me that MS isn't overcharging people.

Of course retail costs more...its uh, retail.

OH GOOD EXPLANATION FOR OVER DOUBLE THE COST.

"Excuse me sir, why does this red Neon cost twice the blue Neon?"
"Of course red costs more...it's uh, red"

 

[stash]

I can buy OEM Home Edition for about $100

I could buy a Dell 2400 (POS I know but whatever) including monitor and free printer + OEM Home Edition for $299

So you are telling me that MS isn't overcharging people.

You also aren't buying thousands of copies, like Dell is.

You gloss over everything (like the fact that WGA pulls way more information off the PC than it needs to)

How do you know what WGA needs or doesn't need? How is the list above of data collected a violation of your privacy? It doesn't tell me anything about you personally. Every website you visit logs your browser version, IP address and what you were looking at. Why do you not feel violated by that?

 

[Varun]

How do you know what WGA needs or doesn't need? How is the list above of data collected a violation of your privacy? It doesn't tell me anything about you personally. Every website you visit logs your browser version, IP address and what you were looking at. Why do you not feel violated by that?

I never said I didn't feel violated by that.

How do you know what WGA needs or doesn't need?

Well it is something to search for pirated copies of Windows right? Does it really need my BIOS info and local settings? No I didn't think so. It only needs to check the OEM product key, then if it is found out to be not legit, the user would have the option of informing MS about where they bought it.

How do you know what WGA needs or doesn't need? Your response is "it's for your protection"

 

[pcgeek11]

Originally posted by: STaSh

$100 doesn't buy me a copy of XP. It purchases an upgrade Home Edition, or OEM (with a list of license restrictions)

What do you think you get on that Dell?

Of course retail costs more...its uh, retail.

Well I would never buy a RETAIL copy over an OEM, Retail doesn't have any added value. It is the same data with a different moniker stuck on it " OEM " or "RETAIL" same thing, well except for the alleged Microsoft Support that you are entitled to under the retail version. This very same help is all over the web and support sites and even the MS knowledge base. All are FREE.

As far as that goes the upgrade even has the very same data, you just have to prove you owned a qualified product to upgrade before it will do a clean install. Really what is the point??? Anybody that pays full retail price ( read that as over inflated price ) is really getting ripped off bigtime. Minor installation method differences and the redundant MS support that is free on the internet vs OEM, No Way? OEM with SP2 is 146.00 at newegg and retail is 299.00 at Microsoft, TWICE the price is just too crazy. You can get a three pack with licenses for OEM at newegg for a little better than 400.00.

Why is retail worth more? It is the same thing, with no added value.

pcgeek11

 

[JackMDS]

Logic 101.

If I give you $10 you can say: "I gave you money".

If I give you $1,000,000 you can say: "I gave you money".

So, since in both cases the verbal reaction is the same, $10 = $1,000,000:light:

Or.

Pigs have Legs.

Human Beings have Legs.

So Pigs are Human beings.

Or may be Human Beings are pigs. :shocked:

If some one makes a psychological/emotional decision to Hate, Reject, Ignore, Belittle, etc., the above logic usually becomes the dominant in one's thought process and it does not matter what others say.

AMD vs. Intel

NVIDIA vs. ATI

Windows vs. Linux

Religion vs. Religion

Race vs. Race

And so On and so On.

Or may be is best to use this: The Helmet.

:sun:

 

[John]

Originally posted by: pcgeek11
Well I would never buy a RETAIL copy over an OEM, Retail doesn't have any added value. It is the same data with a different moniker stuck on it " OEM " or "RETAIL" same thing, well except for the alleged Microsoft Support that you are entitled to under the retail version. This very same help is all over the web and support sites and even the MS knowledge base. All are FREE.

As far as that goes the upgrade even has the very same data, you just have to prove you owned a qualified product to upgrade before it will do a clean install. Really what is the point??? Anybody that pays full retail price ( read that as over inflated price ) is really getting ripped off bigtime. Minor installation method differences and the redundant MS support that is free on the internet vs OEM, No Way? OEM with SP2 is 146.00 at newegg and retail is 299.00 at Microsoft, TWICE the price is just too crazy. You can get a three pack with licenses for OEM at newegg for a little better than 400.00.

Why is retail worth more? It is the same thing, with no added value.

pcgeek11

Retail MS operating systems do offer more value to those who abide by the EULA and have good morales.

OEM:

It's tied to the system that its initially installed on. When you upgrade to a new mainboard or another computer system you are supposed to purchase a new copy of the OS. You also need to seek support from the vendor that you purchased it from.

Retail:

You may carry the OS from system to system, but may only have it installed on one at a time. You are also entitled to support from MS.

 

[SkaarjMaster]

"When you upgrade to a new mainboard or another computer system you are supposed to purchase a new copy of the OS."

No, only purchase another copy if you have problems and then call up M$ and they don't let you activate with the new hardware. Then and only then do you buy a new copy.

 

[Varun]

Originally posted by: SkaarjMaster
"When you upgrade to a new mainboard or another computer system you are supposed to purchase a new copy of the OS."

No, only purchase another copy if you have problems and then call up M$ and they don't let you activate with the new hardware. Then and only then do you buy a new copy.

Regardless of how you get around the EULA, it doesn't make it right (or legal). A Retail OS can be carried to another computer - an OEM can not. If you use an upgrade, by the letter of the EULA if you use an OEM to pass the upgrade check, the upgrade should be used on the same computer as the OEM was originally.

 

[CTho9305]

Just wait until the first worm that changes your CD key to some fixed key everyone shares and everyone gets denied updates. Every legit user gets screwed, every pirate gets away easily.

 

[pcgeek11]

Originally posted by: John

Originally posted by: pcgeek11
Well I would never buy a RETAIL copy over an OEM, Retail doesn't have any added value. It is the same data with a different moniker stuck on it " OEM " or "RETAIL" same thing, well except for the alleged Microsoft Support that you are entitled to under the retail version. This very same help is all over the web and support sites and even the MS knowledge base. All are FREE.

As far as that goes the upgrade even has the very same data, you just have to prove you owned a qualified product to upgrade before it will do a clean install. Really what is the point??? Anybody that pays full retail price ( read that as over inflated price ) is really getting ripped off bigtime. Minor installation method differences and the redundant MS support that is free on the internet vs OEM, No Way? OEM with SP2 is 146.00 at newegg and retail is 299.00 at Microsoft, TWICE the price is just too crazy. You can get a three pack with licenses for OEM at newegg for a little better than 400.00.

Why is retail worth more? It is the same thing, with no added value.

pcgeek11

Retail MS operating systems do offer more value to those who abide by the EULA and have good morales.

OEM:

It's tied to the system that its initially installed on. When you upgrade to a new mainboard or another computer system you are supposed to purchase a new copy of the OS. You also need to seek support from the vendor that you purchased it from.

Retail:

You may carry the OS from system to system, but may only have it installed on one at a time. You are also entitled to support from MS.

I didn't say that anyone shouldn't abide by the EULA did I?
I do have good morals and also abide by the EULA.
How often does the average user replace the mainboard in their PC?
You can replace a damaged motherboard and still remain within the guidlines of the EULA.
You can upgrade / replace every tiny little part in a PC including the case ( with the exception of the motherboard ) and remain within the EULA.
You do not have to go through the vendor to get technical assistance, as forums such as these: Anandtech. HardOCP, MS KNowledge Base offfer more technical assistance than anyone would ever need, FREE. MS knowledge base is still free, for now anyway.
End result I can build a new computer as time goes by I can upgrade everything in the original PC ( except the mainboard ) legally within the EULA. I can replace the mainboard with the same type if the original is damaged.
If you buy a completely new PC you can get an OEM version and license thrown in for little or nothing. Still way less than retail price 299.00.

If you have a qualified ( Non-OEM ) product to upgrade then buy the upgrade, I can then move the operating system to any computer I build as long as it is only on one system at a time. I have a valid legal windows 2000 pro retail license I have bought the Windows XP Pro upgrade disk... no problems. I am not violating the EULA, I have the exact same product that is in the retail version, there is more than enough Free support available from MS and user forums. For a LOT less money. I will stick to my original statement that the retail version offers no added value over an OEM or Upgrade version. I guess I should say this applies to most users there always exceptions to every rule. If you replace your mainboard very often or you do not own a retail version of a qualifying upgradable product then the OEM / Upgrade probably doesn't have any advantage over full retail.

What again are the advantages of the retail version to justify the massive price difference? I can purchase three OEM licenses from newegg.com for 442.99 or I can purchase one retail for 299.00. ???? I just can't see it.

I don't hate Microsoft or their OS's I have used both for longer than I care to think about, I just happen to think that their price is way too high for the retail version over the alternatives OEM or Upgrade.

jackMDS:

I enjoyed your " Logic 101 " lesson. LOL " Humans are pigs ". You may be on to something there!

pcgeek11

 

[SkaarjMaster]

"Regardless of how you get around the EULA, it doesn't make it right (or legal). A Retail OS can be carried to another computer - an OEM can not. If you use an upgrade, by the letter of the EULA if you use an OEM to pass the upgrade check, the upgrade should be used on the same computer as the OEM was originally."

BS! I'm talking about having a legal activated OEM copy of XP and then you change some hardware and I never talked about getting around the EULA at all. If you call up M$ and they say you can go ahead and activate that OEM copy again even though hardware was changed, then that's all you need. Why would you even question the great wisdom of M$ at that point? You have an activated copy, so roll with it. I'm pretty sure the OEM agreement says that you MAY have to get a new copy of Windows when you upgrade hardware anyway. Even so, if they give you the go ahead then no need for another copy.....end of story.

 

[Slickone]

Originally posted by: Budman
http://home19.inet.tele.dk/jys05000/

Does this work? If so, why isn't everyone just doing that?

 

[yukichigai]

Originally posted by: Slickone

Originally posted by: Budman
http://home19.inet.tele.dk/jys05000/

Does this work? If so, why isn't everyone just doing that?

It does and we are.

 

[SleepWalkerX]

There are plenty of ways around it that don't involve working around stuff like this.

Hint: Each word above is a solution.

involve doesn't work. then again its libranet.

j/k j/k, never used it.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: STaSh
What principle, what corporate BS? WGA is there to protect you. It isn't designed so much to be a way to reduce piracy. It is designed to let consumers know if they unknowingly purchased a counterfeit version of Windows.

Uh, you're kidding, right?

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: SkaarjMaster
STaSh, it's the whole principle of the thing. Yes, I could just give in to corporate BS and install WGA, but if there is a way around it I'm taking it.

There are plenty of ways around it that don't involve working around stuff like this.

Hint: Each word above is a solution.

Your solutions are the very problem with Linux. It isn't standardized.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: AsianriceX
Speaking of updates... is the Windows Update server slow as hell for anyone else? I've noticed that connection speed has been dropping to dial-up levels.

YES! And it freaking sucks!!! I'm in the process of setting up a new system right now and it's taking forever getting all of these updates.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: SkaarjMaster
STaSh, it's the whole principle of the thing. Yes, I could just give in to corporate BS and install WGA, but if there is a way around it I'm taking it.

There are plenty of ways around it that don't involve working around stuff like this.

Hint: Each word above is a solution.

Your solutions are the very problem with Linux. It isn't standardized.

Then use a BSD. Standardization is good for some things, but bad for distros. What's the point in having free software if you're limited in how you can use it?