Originally posted by: KK
And after 12 years of inspections they were still uncertain of what Iraq had. What's that tell you? Tells me they were pretty ineffective. It may tell you something else.
On your edit. If you didn't catch my sarcasm on us knowing exactly what they had. We didn't know, we didn't know if they had newer than 12 year old material that we didn't know about, and the inspectors once again didn't know either.
On North Korea, you think we should run in there too? I'd have to agree.What do you think the left would come up with to be against such an act?
KK
How about the fact that "running in there" potentially dooms millions of South Koreans to death. Learn something about North Korean military capabilities. Also N. Korea will be a bigger humanitarian situation than Iraq. Humanitarianism is for liberal pansies, why would America want to be associated with that?
Zephyr
Bringing forth the facts and proof of imminent threats for once goes a long wayOriginally posted by: KK
On North Korea, you think we should run in there too? I'd have to agree.
KK
I am a Mormon and there is a place in the Book of Mormon where the Army dropped everything and came back and attacked their own capital because they refused to support them. This is a possible idea.
Just wondering but what if we all rally behind and prayer to our fearless leader W, and the iraqis don't just give up when do we start dissent? Should we wait 5 years, 10 years maybe if we give bush 15 years we can say he screwed up?
You're wrong. I'll kill or die before I allow your ideas to come to fruition. Is that in any way unclear to you?
Ozoned
Diamond Member
- Mar 22, 2004
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Because, it is the popular drone thing to do.
The war was embraced, and now the reality of war is more than some can stand. Blame Bush or anyone you must, but the war we approved, regardless of our current feelings is our responsibility.
If you don't agree with the war, then voice your dissent, just be willing to carry the burden that your dissent may cause if you do not voice it responsibly...
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
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This qualifies as the stupidest premise for a thread this week. Congrats. I see you have your ratings on. I also notice that at this point you have 11 votes, and a perfect 1.00
Unfortunately we can't go lower. Damn, go torture small animals or something more constructive.
Unfortunately we can't go lower. Damn, go torture small animals or something more constructive.
Your arguement, valid or not, serves a moot point. Free speech is a pillar of American society, and as long as it exists people will voice their opinions. If we were to all stop voicing our dissent of the war, and mindlessly back our government, then I believe terrorists would rejoice as that pillar fell and brought the ideals of this country down with it.
Whether you agree with me or not, I hope I proved that using the arguement 'you're letting the terrorists win' is not a convincing one because in just about any debate, both sides can use it.
Whether you agree with me or not, I hope I proved that using the arguement 'you're letting the terrorists win' is not a convincing one because in just about any debate, both sides can use it.
I can be an American and voice my dissent. I find it awfully foolish to even ASSUME that there are only two possibilities - you are either against America or with America. There IS a neutral ground, but most people seem to either be ignorant of it - or like the Bush administration would have us believe, there are ONLY TWO OPTIONS. Utterly laughable.
here is something you should read up on.
You see, its quite simple - with no negative feedback, it is impossible to change direction and thus fix any mistakes that happen (and no, Bush is not 100% right 100% of the time, so there is a need to fix mistakes). With positive feedback only, any system, inlcuding the political, would quickly spiral out of control. Thus you may not like critics, but they do more good than you realize.
You see, its quite simple - with no negative feedback, it is impossible to change direction and thus fix any mistakes that happen (and no, Bush is not 100% right 100% of the time, so there is a need to fix mistakes). With positive feedback only, any system, inlcuding the political, would quickly spiral out of control. Thus you may not like critics, but they do more good than you realize.
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
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When you speak up your also showing the world were are not all ignorant backwords self centered Americans who support dub's war
Why voice dissent of the war?
Because it is criminaly wrong.
The people who are in favor of war in Iraq are those who have a vested economic interest, and those who are scared.
Because it is criminaly wrong.
The people who are in favor of war in Iraq are those who have a vested economic interest, and those who are scared.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
The "war" is over?
"If America is at war, I won?t speak a word without measuring how it?ll sound to the guys doing the fighting when they?re listening to their radios in the desert."
Again - I wonder how kerry sounds to the guys doing the fighting. Some that have come back who I've talked to haven't been too pleased with some of the media, but I didn't specifically ask about kerry.
CkG
Well stated - sort of.
My heart goes out to the troops - they've all made deep sacrifices for what they believe to be the good of this country. They and their families were lied to, and thats the bigger tragedy.
If and when bush decides to hand the reigns over to the UN and stand trial for treason (lying to Americans, unilatterally deciding to prempt a war which has no bearing on terrorism, selling out America to rich oil and energy co's, putting so many lives - American and otherwise - at stake) then I will back down.
My heart goes out to the troops - they've all made deep sacrifices for what they believe to be the good of this country. They and their families were lied to, and thats the bigger tragedy.
If and when bush decides to hand the reigns over to the UN and stand trial for treason (lying to Americans, unilatterally deciding to prempt a war which has no bearing on terrorism, selling out America to rich oil and energy co's, putting so many lives - American and otherwise - at stake) then I will back down.
In light of recent events, the argument in the original post seems even more hollow.
Terrorists don't need internal dissent in the US to help carry out terrorism or fuel terrorist activities.
A few misguided soldiers and contractors and their photo shoot has given terrorists more anti-US fuel than could have ever been supplied by millions of liberal latte drinkers non-violently expressing their displeasure and disagreement with the current administration's handling of Iraq.
Americans could never peep a word of war related dissent again, and those images will still circulate prominently around arab-media worldwide, inspiring new acts of violence and hatred against the US.
As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Before the start of hostilities, I felt that our action would be good for the people of Iraq, but given our stated justification (at the time - it was very much "imminent threat" back then) we would fail miserably at the goal of making the US safer by our actions. The jury is still out about whether people in Iraq are better off (probably marginally so, except for the dead ones of course), but Americans are clearly less safe now than we were before the war, IMO. At the very least, less safe if we want to travel to Saudi Arabia, for instance...
Terrorists don't need internal dissent in the US to help carry out terrorism or fuel terrorist activities.
A few misguided soldiers and contractors and their photo shoot has given terrorists more anti-US fuel than could have ever been supplied by millions of liberal latte drinkers non-violently expressing their displeasure and disagreement with the current administration's handling of Iraq.
Americans could never peep a word of war related dissent again, and those images will still circulate prominently around arab-media worldwide, inspiring new acts of violence and hatred against the US.
As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Before the start of hostilities, I felt that our action would be good for the people of Iraq, but given our stated justification (at the time - it was very much "imminent threat" back then) we would fail miserably at the goal of making the US safer by our actions. The jury is still out about whether people in Iraq are better off (probably marginally so, except for the dead ones of course), but Americans are clearly less safe now than we were before the war, IMO. At the very least, less safe if we want to travel to Saudi Arabia, for instance...
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If you think so...if you really think it's criminal, then join the insurgents and take up arms against the US...otherwise STFU.
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A valid argument. However, I consider the airing of the criminal actions of these soliders which should have been handled privately by the military to be the same kind of dissent at the media level. Arabs will turn even hapless and benign acts like Sean Penn's hapless journey to Iraq into Muslim propoganda. Airing this show was akin to giving an addict a big bag of crack. War crimes happen...always have and always will. Choosing to air this, in light of the audience, while our troops are still in harms way was irresponsible. Saying we should exercise free speech just because we can is very small-minded...with rights come responsibility. My wife is afraid of spiders, so when I see one, I don't point and yell "SPIDER!", I get up quietly and get it...later I'll mention something, but it would be as a point of reference. Were the spider next to my best friend, I'd have said "Dude, there's a spider next to you."
Bush stated numerous times that the threat was not imminent. This has made America safe the same way removing a tumor before it becomes cancerous makes one safe. But that's a separate argument for a separate thread; I just wanted to give a response since you brought it up.
Please, no need to re-hash that revisionist debate on my account. Bush should have cleared up talking points with Rumsfeld, who is on the record as telling congress on 9/19/02 that:
"No terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people" than Iraq and that "some have argued that the nuclear threat from Iraq is not imminent [but] I would not be so certain."
I certainly was under the impression that the reason for intervention was an "imminent threat" at the time, but I'll allow that I could have been misinterpreting Rumsfeld's words.
As for whether the 60 minutes spot counts as dissent, I see your perspective. My perspective is if I lived in an America where that 60 minutes program wasn't allowed to be aired, the America we would be left with wouldn't be worth defending.
The muslim world doesn't need 60 mintues, however. They've seen a very different picture of the war on their own media outlets. Propogandized, yes, but damning to the US nonetheless. If the US had stayed out of Iraq in the first place, the war for "hearts and minds in the Middle East" would have been a bit easier (easier, not easy). That said, I'm still glad we got rid of Saddam for the sake of Iraqi citizens and no-one else, and I'm not shocked at the lack of gratitude in the Middle East. I believe the US is less safe than it was in 2002 as a direct result of Bush's foreign policy - you clearly think otherwise. Time will tell.
I'm glad that we can both disagree about important national policy issues openly and one of us isn't being forced to keep our trap shut for fear of being imprisioned for "unpatriotic acts". While I wouldn't describe my position on the war as dissent as much as disinterested cynicism, I feel it is one's duty as a citizen to speak out when unhappy with how the government is running things.
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