Why voice dissent of the war?

Dec 27, 2001
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Why voice dissent over the Iraq war? Terrorism and guerilla wars are difficult to fight. Guerillas and terrorists are counting on the swaying of public opinion to bring about victory for their cause and, being that they are the ones firing first and the ones deliberatly killing innocent civilians, we'll make the safe assumption that they are the bad guys.

Since public opinion is crucial to their success, it only makes sense that when they see public opinion against their enemy, that they would be encouraged and therefore more likely to keep up their attacks since they can see that their tactic is working. That's not to say they need to observe support FOR themselves, but merely opposition to the ones they're fighting. In their case the enemy of their enemy is their friend. But here really are just two sides to any battle and you need to choose a side to support. Abhoring equally the Bush administration and the terrorists and small bands of guerillas in Iraq is not an option. The terrorists and guerillas know they're hated and expect no less, but all they have to do to win is to get people to hate their opponent, and they know this. The only evidence they have for believing they can win is vocal dissent within their opposing country.

A recent example of what I'm talking about can be seen here http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/26/iraq.italian/. Public opposition and vocal dissent is so important, that terrorists are making it a demand. They get exactly what they want for free from Americans though, so I'm sure they're all quite thankful for your assistance.

This all so far is merely common sense and shouldn't really be disputed. So why are people still voicing their dissent? What do they hope to accomplish?

Possibility 1: Partisan or ideological loyalty comes before national loyalty and concern for our troops. In this case, the dissenter's only concern is victory at election time. The fact is, our troops are there and cannot leave. Regardless of why they are there or the justification for them being there, they are there and cannot leave. Their safety and the success of the rebuilding of Iraq is hindered by terrorist acts and attacks by guerilla bands, but the dissenter believes either that encouraging terrorist and guerilla activity will lead to administration change and that successful administration change will lead to greater safety for the troops or genuinly, deep-down just doesn't care about the safety of our troops and the success of their mission as much as they care about partisan gain.

Possibility 2: Lack of undertanding of the harm vocal dissent does. A very likely scenario for the shallow thinking or young who lack the knowledge of the principles behind terrorism and guerilla warfare. Yet these are the same ones who merely regurgiate what they hear or read so less dissent means less for these numbskulls to recite.

Possibility 3: Lack of control of emotion. In this scenario, the dissenter is controlled by their emotions and is incapable of suppressing them even for the good of freedom and the safety of our troops. In this scenario, I can only warn the dissenter that a lifetime of decisions made based on emotion will lead to one heck of a messed up life and this is as good a time as any to start using your mind.

"But, OMG, dude, this is a free country. How can you be all like a Nazi and stuff and say we shouldn't question your fearless leader Bush lite? OMG OMG!"

I'm certainly not saying you shouldn't be allowed to voice your opinion. I'm certianly not suggesting that Bush or our actions in Iraq are right. I am, however, telling you that vocal dissent, regardless of why you choose to exercise it, is good for the terrorists and insurgents and bad for our troops. Your vocal dissent will not get the troops home sooner as it's an understood fact that prematurly abandoning Iraq would be disasterous. It will not provide them any more safety, but, rather, will have the opposite effect. George Bush cannot be recalled. He can be impeached for criminal actions if he committed them, but this action will be facilitated by Congress and whether or not you held a sign or chanted in the streets will have zero effect on this procedure.

So if you disagree with Bush and/or Iraq, fine; in November vote for an alternative if you think there's a better one. Voting is your true power and is the only way you'll be able to affect who is in the White House. So, for the sake of democracy and the safety of the coalition troops, voice your dissent in the voting booth where it is truly heard. This isn't a domestic agenda like social security or medicare or drilling in Alaska where vocal dissent is useful as well as harmless; America is at war, it's done, there's no more decisions to be made, and, unless you are against America, either support our mission or shut up.
 

leeboy

Banned
Dec 8, 2003
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No thanks. Think I will keep speaking out but thanks for offering me the opportunity to support YOUR ideologies. I will keep them handy in print for when I run out of toilet paper next time. pft. :roll:
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: leeboy
No thanks. Think I will keep speaking out but thanks for offering me the opportunity to support YOUR ideologies. I will keep them handy in print for when I run out of toilet paper next time. pft. :roll:

Um, there's no way you read the entire thing before posting. But thanks anyway.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
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Maybe dissenters think that bush and co are screwing up the iraqi sittuation so the only way to fix that problem is for the public to know we are failling. Democracy can only function when their is dissent and dissenters are allowed to voice their dissent.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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If nobody voices their dissent the Dub and his cadre of nefarious Neocons would take that as a sign of wholesale support of their disasterous foriegn policy which would convince them to cause more dangerous situations for us and the world.
 

leeboy

Banned
Dec 8, 2003
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Nah, I read the whole thing. I wholeheartedly disagree with your views. They may suit you but they don't suit me and others. I defend your right to the death to say them though, too bad that same defense is not reciprocated in your original post. Therein lies the problem.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: leeboy
Nah, I read the whole thing. I wholeheartedly disagree with your views. They may suit you but they don't suit me and others. I defend your right to the death to say them though, too bad that same defense is not reciprocated in your original post. Therein lies the problem.

I'd love to know exactly which points you disagree with, leeboy.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If nobody voices their dissent the Dub and his cadre of nefarious Neocons would take that as a sign of wholesale support of their disasterous foriegn policy which would convince them to cause more dangerous situations for us and the world.

Wrong. You voice your dissent by voting in November. All the vocal dissent in the world won't and can't change our current policy unless you think we should pull out of Iraq before it's stable in which case I couldn't argue your motive for vocally dissenting and could only question your intelligence.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: Spencer278
Maybe dissenters think that bush and co are screwing up the iraqi sittuation so the only way to fix that problem is for the public to know we are failling.

Can you explain this sentence a little further. The public knowing we are failing (a position which only some agree with) will fix the situation? I'm interested to know how.
 

leeboy

Banned
Dec 8, 2003
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If nobody voices their dissent the Dub and his cadre of nefarious Neocons would take that as a sign of wholesale support of their disasterous foriegn policy which would convince them to cause more dangerous situations for us and the world.

Wrong. You voice your dissent by voting in November. All the vocal dissent in the world won't and can't change our current policy unless you think we should pull out of Iraq before it's stable in which case I couldn't argue your motive for vocally dissenting and could only question your intelligence.

And that is where you are wrong. Vocal dissent CAN change policy. It is just that the thick-headed president has his own agenda. So... to that end, we as American's will continue to excercise our rights whether you feel it is constructive of detrimental. I could honestly care less what you think, and when you tell me what to say and what not to say, I speak even loader.
 

leeboy

Banned
Dec 8, 2003
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: leeboy
No thanks. Think I will keep speaking out but thanks for offering me the opportunity to support YOUR ideologies. I will keep them handy in print for when I run out of toilet paper next time. pft. :roll:

Um, there's no way you read the entire thing before posting. But thanks anyway.

Um, pretty much all of the points that in a nutshell say that speaking out is wrong. Hey, if you feel the only American way to express dissatisfaction is at the polls, that is your choice. Have at it, sounds like you certainly support Bush though so your whole argument is moot. People did not support us over in Vietnam, spoke out rather loadly about it back in the States, and speaking for myself it did not lower my moral 1 bit. We had a job to do and took orders for our superiors without question. End of story
 

cumhail

Senior member
Apr 1, 2003
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I'm just going to repeat something I said in another thread: If the colonists had been as unwilling to question their leaders and government as you seem to want all Americans to be, the Americas would still be a British colony, and those we call our nation's founding fathers would all have been branded traitors.

cumhail
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: leeboy
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If nobody voices their dissent the Dub and his cadre of nefarious Neocons would take that as a sign of wholesale support of their disasterous foriegn policy which would convince them to cause more dangerous situations for us and the world.

Wrong. You voice your dissent by voting in November. All the vocal dissent in the world won't and can't change our current policy unless you think we should pull out of Iraq before it's stable in which case I couldn't argue your motive for vocally dissenting and could only question your intelligence.

And that is where you are wrong. Vocal dissent CAN change policy.

Sure it can, but it can't change our "current" policy, unless you're going to disagree that we can't leave Iraq until it's stable.

See, the use of the word "current" changes the meaning of the sentence...that's why you have to read all the words to understand a sentence correctly.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: cumhail
I'm just going to repeat something I said in another thread: If the colonists had been as unwilling to question their leaders and government as you seem to want all Americans to be, the Americas would still be a British colony, and those we call our nation's founding fathers would all have been branded traitors.

cumhail

I'm speaking about vocal dissent of the war. Where did I say anything about dissent in general?
 

cumhail

Senior member
Apr 1, 2003
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
I'm speaking about vocal dissent of the war. Where did I say anything about dissent in general?

Ah, so then people can disagree just so long as they shut up about it and never openly question those who believe as you do? Thanks for making clear the distinction :roll:

cumhail
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: cumhail
I'm just going to repeat something I said in another thread: If the colonists had been as unwilling to question their leaders and government as you seem to want all Americans to be, the Americas would still be a British colony, and those we call our nation's founding fathers would all have been branded traitors.

cumhail

I'm speaking about vocal dissent of the war. Where did I say anything about dissent in general?
Simply amazing. I bet that even those who believe that the war wasn't ill conceived would disagree with you. I can assure you that if the shoe was on the other foot and that you believed that this war was wrong and that the American people were deceived into supporting it that you wouldn't keep silent. Your proposition reeks of partisanship.
 

leeboy

Banned
Dec 8, 2003
451
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: leeboy
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If nobody voices their dissent the Dub and his cadre of nefarious Neocons would take that as a sign of wholesale support of their disasterous foriegn policy which would convince them to cause more dangerous situations for us and the world.

Wrong. You voice your dissent by voting in November. All the vocal dissent in the world won't and can't change our current policy unless you think we should pull out of Iraq before it's stable in which case I couldn't argue your motive for vocally dissenting and could only question your intelligence.

And that is where you are wrong. Vocal dissent CAN change policy.

Sure it can, but it can't change our "current" policy, unless you're going to disagree that we can't leave Iraq until it's stable.

See, the use of the word "current" changes the meaning of the sentence...that's why you have to read all the words to understand a sentence correctly.

I understand what you are saying. I just don't agree. If we sit on our hands and say nothing, we are doomed to repeat this war again and again. The rest of the World will tire more of our bullyish nature and our grandkids will pay the price. Like WE aren't already...
 

gistech1978

Diamond Member
Aug 30, 2002
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: cumhail
I'm just going to repeat something I said in another thread: If the colonists had been as unwilling to question their leaders and government as you seem to want all Americans to be, the Americas would still be a British colony, and those we call our nation's founding fathers would all have been branded traitors.

cumhail

I'm speaking about vocal dissent of the war. Where did I say anything about dissent in general?

okay...
nice sidestep there.
wouldnt 'general dissent' give ammo to the terrorists in your opinion?
far more than someone who disagrees with this administration by writing an article, posting a blog or to an even less extent, posting here.
what other kinds of 'dissent' do you propose?
blowing up government offices?
non violent protests? oh, but wait, theyre just no good dirty hippies right?
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If nobody voices their dissent the Dub and his cadre of nefarious Neocons would take that as a sign of wholesale support of their disasterous foriegn policy which would convince them to cause more dangerous situations for us and the world.

Wrong. You voice your dissent by voting in November. All the vocal dissent in the world won't and can't change our current policy unless you think we should pull out of Iraq before it's stable in which case I couldn't argue your motive for vocally dissenting and could only question your intelligence.

Government needs to fear the people. They work for us. Dissent is a needed American Ideal
 

jrphoenix

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,295
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Wow a rehash of the same arguments made against Vietnam War protestors :) If you voice your opposition to the war (not against the troops but the war and the policy makers)... you're helping the enemy ;)
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: gistech1978
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: cumhail
I'm just going to repeat something I said in another thread: If the colonists had been as unwilling to question their leaders and government as you seem to want all Americans to be, the Americas would still be a British colony, and those we call our nation's founding fathers would all have been branded traitors.

cumhail

I'm speaking about vocal dissent of the war. Where did I say anything about dissent in general?

okay...
nice sidestep there.
Dude, it's the freaking title of my post...how is that a sidestep?
wouldnt 'general dissent' give ammo to the terrorists in your opinion?
No.
far more than someone who disagrees with this administration by writing an article, posting a blog or to an even less extent, posting here.
what other kinds of 'dissent' do you propose?
Voting.
blowing up government offices?
non violent protests? oh, but wait, theyre just no good dirty hippies right?
WTF?
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: leeboy
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: leeboy
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If nobody voices their dissent the Dub and his cadre of nefarious Neocons would take that as a sign of wholesale support of their disasterous foriegn policy which would convince them to cause more dangerous situations for us and the world.

Wrong. You voice your dissent by voting in November. All the vocal dissent in the world won't and can't change our current policy unless you think we should pull out of Iraq before it's stable in which case I couldn't argue your motive for vocally dissenting and could only question your intelligence.

And that is where you are wrong. Vocal dissent CAN change policy.

Sure it can, but it can't change our "current" policy, unless you're going to disagree that we can't leave Iraq until it's stable.

See, the use of the word "current" changes the meaning of the sentence...that's why you have to read all the words to understand a sentence correctly.

I understand what you are saying. I just don't agree. If we sit on our hands and say nothing, we are doomed to repeat this war again and again. The rest of the World will tire more of our bullyish nature and our grandkids will pay the price. Like WE aren't already...

Voicing dissent over the war won't get GW Bush out of office. Voting will. Voicing dissent will, however, encourage the terrorists and insurgents. You have all the power i the world to enact whatever change you want in November.
 
Jan 12, 2003
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Originally posted by: gistech1978

non violent protests? oh, but wait, theyre just no good dirty hippies right?

No, they are usually 20-somethings who wear their pants down to the crack of their @$$, have 30-45 credit hours of higher education and know everything about the world, and drink that alternative lifestyle coffee. :)