Why Update Windows?

[Murloc]

you don't really need them on your personal computer, but for business you do, because you can't afford to compromise your security (IP, client data etc.).

 

[Itchrelief]

Lastly, does anyone know where these things come from? Who is sitting around making viruses and malware? My friend suggested its Apple, but that's a bit conspiratorial.

 

[Itchrelief]

I just don't buy into this whole idea that MS actually cares for you, and wants to protect you even in their older version OS's. It goes completely AGAINST their financial interests.. .

Actually, the way that Microsoft tries to get you to upgrade to a newer OS is by ENDING windows update security patch support.

 

[mechBgon]

you don't really need them on your personal computer, but for business you do, because you can't afford to compromise your security (IP, client data etc.).

So you don't mind if the bad guys steal your Windows installation key, your game keys, your WoW account & virtual items, your Steam account and game library, the keystrokes you type, or encrypt your files and hold them for ransom? Or delete all the MP3s on your system?

Think about it. There are consequences to a security breach and not all of them can be undone after the fact.

At my last job we had some computers that weren't allowed to be connected to the internet, and so they never got updated from the XP SP1 that they came installed with. They were still in use when I left, maybe 7 years old and never reinstalled, and didn't need it either.

If they were on even an internal-only network, they'd be prone to a worm attack spreading from system to system without anyone even logging on. All you'd need is one infected USB device, or even an infected burned CD or DVD, to light that fuse.

 

[thelastjuju]

So you don't mind if the bad guys steal your Windows installation key, your game keys, your WoW account & virtual items, your Steam account and game library, the keystrokes you type, or encrypt your files and hold them for ransom? Or delete all the MP3s on your system?

What bad guys? I have everything backed up, so I wouldn't have any problems. I would be pretty damned impressed if someone somehow managed to delete my files on me or take over my keyboard without downloading or installing anything.. Are we really at a point where things can automatically install themselves without downloading something? This just goes against every person I ever knew who got a virus, who ended up making a mistake.

The second I notice any erratic behavior I'd just shut it down immediately and wipe the hard drive.. reformat and be up and running again in like 20 minutes. I've long planned for this, but it has never happened luckily. I'd also be pretty flattered, because there's absolutely nothing they'd find on my computer besides a shitload of heavily modded pc games. :sneaky:

I just don't get who is behind this sort of malicious behavior and what the motive is. Are there people looking into tracing where these things come from? If these guys can do all this crazy shit, why can't they find the punks that make the viruses?

 

[WildW]

If they were on even an internal-only network, they'd be prone to a worm attack spreading from system to system without anyone even logging on. All you'd need is one infected USB device, or even an infected burned CD or DVD, to light that fuse.

I meant that they didn't need reinstalling. . . but even so, no, no network, and no USB devices allowed. Kept in locked safes. Working at Secret is a pain in the backside.

 

[imagoon]

I have to run an old version of Java, because my RAID controller's administration tools are written in Java, and they bundle with an old version.

I tried updating to a current java version, and then the RAID controller tools said that they couldn't run.

The good news is, the older version that installs, gives you a choice to install the IE and Firefox plugins. Which I do not.

There is a trick for this build a small bat file that has the older java in the path statement then calls the application from that script. It will cause that one instance to use the older java while the rest of the machine uses the more current versions.

 

[mechBgon]

What bad guys? I have everything backed up, so I wouldn't have any problems. I would be pretty damned impressed if someone somehow managed to delete my files on me or take over my keyboard without downloading or installing anything.. Are we really at a point where things can automatically install themselves without downloading something? This just goes against every person I ever knew who got a virus, who ended up making a mistake.

The second I notice any erratic behavior I'd just shut it down immediately and wipe the hard drive.. reformat and be up and running again in like 20 minutes. I've long planned for this, but it has never happened luckily. I'd also be pretty flattered, because there's absolutely nothing they'd find on my computer besides a shitload of heavily modded pc games. :sneaky:

I just don't get who is behind this sort of malicious behavior and what the motive is. Are there people looking into tracing where these things come from? If these guys can do all this crazy shit, why can't they find the punks that make the viruses?

I guess my point is going over your head. Yeah, you can reformat. I can, too. That doesn't bring back your stuff. Reformatting doesn't magically yank your credit-card details back out of their hands. Reformattng doesn't magically bring back your Windows key or the keys to your heavily-modded games after they heist them and sell them. It doesn't bring back your stolen WoW account and everything associated with it, which they sell off on the grey market. Once it's gone, you're just closing the barn door after the horse has bolted. Prevention is important, and keeping all your software up-to-date is very valuable prevention.

The second I notice any erratic behavior I'd just shut it down immediately and wipe the hard drive.. reformat and be up and running again in like 20 minutes.

You're expecting a keylogger to tip its hand by displaying erratic behavior? "LOL WE'RE IN UR COMPUTER LOGGIN UR KEYSTROKES" on the screen or something? That would be entirely counterproductive when their goal is to grab as much of your stuff as possible before you catch on. It's just going to sit there and keep quietly capturing and sending.

I just don't get who is behind this sort of malicious behavior and what the motive is.

Yeah, I noticed. You're not up to speed on the general security scene, or the bad guys' techniques and motives. Read up a bit on the TDSS rootkit, aka TDL-4, for just one example of what the bad guys will do to get onto your system and stay there.

And a parting food for thought: computer malware is bigger business, dollar-wise, than the worldwide illegal-drug trade.

 

[thelastjuju]

I guess my point is going over your head. Yeah, you can reformat. I can, too. That doesn't bring back your stuff. Reformatting doesn't magically yank your credit-card details back out of their hands. Reformattng doesn't magically bring back your Windows key or the keys to your heavily-modded games after they heist them and sell them. It doesn't bring back your stolen WoW account and everything associated with it, which they sell off on the grey market. Once it's gone, you're just closing the barn door after the horse has bolted. Prevention is important, and keeping all your software up-to-date is very valuable prevention.



You're expecting a keylogger to tip its hand by displaying erratic behavior? "LOL WE'RE IN UR COMPUTER LOGGIN UR KEYSTROKES" on the screen or something? That would be entirely counterproductive when their goal is to grab as much of your stuff as possible before you catch on. It's just going to sit there and keep quietly capturing and sending.



Yeah, I noticed. You're not up to speed on the general security scene, or the bad guys' techniques and motives. Read up a bit on the TDSS rootkit, aka TDL-4, for just one example of what the bad guys will do to get onto your system and stay there.

And a parting food for thought: computer malware is bigger business, dollar-wise, than the worldwide illegal-drug trade.

Okay well this is some scary stuff indeed. but the truth is I just don't have anything they'd want. I don't play WoW, or have any top secret information on here.. and everything is cloned on a hard drive stored away safely. The mods I have are free, and I'd gladly upload them into a compilation if anyone wanted them that badly.. and that leaves a bunch of pictures of my dogs and family members.

I use a debit card for online purchases, and when I make purchases I deposit the same amount of cash at the bank that I'm spending right before.. so its not like I don't take any precautions here.

I can also absolutely assure you nobody is keyloging me.. they'd see a bunch of forum posts that are already made public and a random combo of "WASD" over and over again.

 

[dclive]

Actually, the way that Microsoft tries to get you to upgrade to a newer OS is by ENDING windows update security patch support.

For example?

 

[dclive]

Okay well this is some scary stuff indeed. but the truth is I just don't have anything they'd want. I don't play WoW, or have any top secret information on here.. and everything is cloned on a hard drive stored away safely. The mods I have are free, and I'd gladly upload them into a compilation if anyone wanted them that badly.. and that leaves a bunch of pictures of my dogs and family members.

I use a debit card for online purchases, and when I make purchases I deposit the same amount of cash at the bank that I'm spending right before.. so its not like I don't take any precautions here.

I can also absolutely assure you nobody is keyloging me.. they'd see a bunch of forum posts that are already made public and a random combo of "WASD" over and over again.

You've never logged into your bank's website?

Your passwords are all unique, and you wouldn't mind if they were distributed in a zip file (with your email address, name, age, and social security number) worldwide?

Seriously!?

 

[Jeff7]

So you don't mind if the bad guys steal your Windows installation key, your game keys, your WoW account & virtual items, your Steam account and game library, the keystrokes you type, or encrypt your files and hold them for ransom? Or delete all the MP3s on your system?

Think about it. There are consequences to a security breach and not all of them can be undone after the fact.

If they were on even an internal-only network, they'd be prone to a worm attack spreading from system to system without anyone even logging on. All you'd need is one infected USB device, or even an infected burned CD or DVD, to light that fuse.

Or use your system as a drone for a DDoS attack.

 

[Dravic]

You boss is very dangerous to your companies IT assets. He is a gaping security hole.

When teaching an IT Security class to other IT engineers, I would often use metasploit to break into systems no more then 1 or 2 patch/kernel revisions behind remotely. It's much harder on vista and newer, and a firewall helps. Not patching often remotely exploitable issues with updates readily provided by the vendor is foolish. You bosses computer is probably already a part of a botnet.

15 years ago is was cool to see a server with a 300+ days uptime, now that just tells me that server is out of the operational life cycle, and hasn't received updates and patches recently. It's now a major security risk on the network. Times have changed.

 

[mechBgon]

You've never logged into your bank's website?

Your passwords are all unique, and you wouldn't mind if they were distributed in a zip file (with your email address, name, age, and social security number) worldwide?

Seriously!?

What would really tick ME off, is if they hijacked my Windows and Office install keys, and MY licenses got invalidated because someone else was using them. Imagine having to activate by phone every day, that would be fun... NOT. "Oh hi, yeah it's me again... no, just the one computer. Seventy-THREE now, huh? I'm serious, I didn't do it! Ok, 94291... 52831... 01447..."

Or having my Crysis key swiped... five installs and your key dies, right? I'm up to two.

Anyway, for those who want some good advice regarding updating:

1. Eyeball your installed software real quick and uninstall stuff you don't need. Java especially. They can't exploit it if you don't have it.

2. The stuff you're keeping, get the latest version. e.g. replace Adobe Reader 8 or 9 with version 10, replace Flash Player 10 with version 11. Media players, IM clients, browsers, email clients, VoIP clients, OpenOffice, etc.

3. Switch from the stock Windows Update engine to the Microsoft Update engine, which covers more Microsoft stuff. To get it, one way is to go to http://update.microsoft.com. If you already have the upgraded engine, it should just bounce you to your resident Control Panel update screen (on Vista/Win7), or display the usual Update page on WinXP.

4. Install Secunia PSI and run a checkup. Get that third-party stuff patched up.

 

[dclive]

I'm more worried about my bank info and other passwords. Videogames and XP limit my outlay to $50 and $99, respectively, but with that bank account and other password info, the sky is the limit.

 

[sm625]

Updates do screw up your computer. I have several .net updates that wont even install. I've hidden probably 15 updates because they wont install. Yes I have tried to reinstall them starting from the first hidden one. Windows 7 is just as bad as all previous windows versions, with more added bulk. I spent hours setting up eventghost and autohotkey scripting to have the "perfect" media center remote. Now it is all screwed up. I go to fast forward my movie and it pauses. So gay... It had to have been caused by an update because nothing else changed.

 

[dclive]

Updates do screw up your computer. I have several .net updates that wont even install. I've hidden probably 15 updates because they wont install. Yes I have tried to reinstall them starting from the first hidden one. Windows 7 is just as bad as all previous windows versions, with more added bulk. I spent hours setting up eventghost and autohotkey scripting to have the "perfect" media center remote. Now it is all screwed up. I go to fast forward my movie and it pauses. So gay... It had to have been caused by an update because nothing else changed.

The screwed up computer isn't the updates' fault. You have a screwed up computer where .net won't install because you screwed something up on it - or it's owned already.

 

[spittledip]

I think the modern issue with updates has less to do with OSs and more to do wiih specific programs like SQL server and Sharepoint. We have clients that break sqlserver and Sharepoint often by updating them with Windows Updates. However, this is due to them not going through the proper steps to update these programs rather than an issue with the updates themselves.

That said, I have seen updates to OSs break networking etc sometimes, and this is as recent as last year. So, yes, occasionally an update is released that can cause damage, but it s fairly rare. That is why you have WSUS servers releasing to test groups.

 

[thelastjuju]

What would really tick ME off, is if they hijacked my Windows and Office install keys, and MY licenses got invalidated because someone else was using them. Imagine having to activate by phone every day, that would be fun... NOT. "Oh hi, yeah it's me again... no, just the one computer. Seventy-THREE now, huh? I'm serious, I didn't do it! Ok, 94291... 52831... 01447..."

Or having my Crysis key swiped... five installs and your key dies, right? I'm up to two.

Anyway, for those who want some good advice regarding updating:

1. Eyeball your installed software real quick and uninstall stuff you don't need. Java especially. They can't exploit it if you don't have it.

2. The stuff you're keeping, get the latest version. e.g. replace Adobe Reader 8 or 9 with version 10, replace Flash Player 10 with version 11. Media players, IM clients, browsers, email clients, VoIP clients, OpenOffice, etc.

3. Switch from the stock Windows Update engine to the Microsoft Update engine, which covers more Microsoft stuff. To get it, one way is to go to http://update.microsoft.com. If you already have the upgraded engine, it should just bounce you to your resident Control Panel update screen (on Vista/Win7), or display the usual Update page on WinXP.

4. Install Secunia PSI and run a checkup. Get that third-party stuff patched up.

Why would they ever hijack the serials for Microsoft Windows, Microsoft Office, or any other game key for that matter?

If these hackers are so sophisticated, wouldn't they be a step ahead there? .. and already have access to a sort of universal key, a key generator, or pre-registered/cracked version that requires no key in the first place.

Unless they are doing it purely out of malice.

 

[mechBgon]

Why would they ever hijack the serials for Microsoft Windows, Microsoft Office, or any other game key for that matter?

If these hackers are so sophisticated, wouldn't they be a step ahead there? .. and already have access to a sort of universal key, a key generator, or pre-registered/cracked version that requires no key in the first place.

Unless they are doing it purely out of malice.

Well, for whatever reason, that *is* one of the things they do, and financial motives are almost always the driving factor these days. Every other risk I mentioned is also pulled from real-world malware rap sheets, and I don't think I even bothered touching on the computer becoming part of a botnet and harming others... people are usually more interested in how it impacts them personally. Human nature, you know

 

[PrayForDeath]

You can try welcoming your boss to 2011 and tell him windows has gotten better since windows 95.

 

[mindless1]

The right answer is don't update UNTIL you have tested the effects and that includes the anti-virus engine which can royally screw things up too. I mean any mission critical system, if it's just a random desktop running office/email/internet with a separate email/data store then it isn't critical.

 

[Absolution75]

There isn't a legitimate reason for not deploying windows updates unless there is one that specifically conflicts with your configuration. There are updates that are known to mess up your computer (there was one last year with xp I believe), but those are far and few between - they usually require specific configurations (the last one involved an antivirus detecting a false positive on a required windows dll, thus deleting it - wasn't even Microsoft's fault).

MS gets people to upgrade by ending support for old operating systems. That's why Xp will soon be "unsupported" - likely prompting a massive OS migration in the future. MS actually doesn't get any more money from this though. Business primarily use MSDN subscriptions ( > ~20 people ). The subscriptions are based on the number of people in your organization, not what OS you use. You pay the same for using XP as Vista/7.


As far as the virus entry breakdown chart - user interaction includes going to a webpage to exploits your browser. Windows updates will fix these security holes if your browser is IE. I've received notifications of infections on pages like dailytech due to malicious advertisements - no, not everyone uses adblock.

If you don't use them, its gross negligence. It is already broken and you are fixing it. Use OpenBSD if you don't want to patch anything. Eventually windows will be mostly secure, but it isn't the case now (it has gotten sooo much better though!).

 

[Matt1970]

I've noticed that if you install XP on an old machine it will often feel really surprisingly snappy and fast, until you start installing service packs and Windows Updates and it goes all sluggish again.

This is very true. I just had a customers XP PC in that I ran a buch of updates for and it added a good 40 seconds to the boot time.

Most of all infections/malware come through holes in Internet Explorer. Most of the Microsoft updates do not deal with the holes in IE.

 

[mindless1]

^ Agreed, I routinely have systems brought to me for disinfection and IE is by far the greatest entry point (though often not because of a security hole, I also mean something the user elected to install like when they get a popup message "Yyou needz this videos codex to view xyz" and they install it.

Then again, in a networked environment things can spread so it isn't as often the user of a particular system or browser s/he uses to blame, and that autorun worm from not so long ago comes to mind as a very common infection method due to a logic flaw on MS' part regarding the security of autorun as it was originally set up, but this was also patched.