Why the Nobel Peace Prize Should Go to Nuclear Weapons

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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This article from Time is a brilliant rebuttal to Obama being award the peace prize for his 'goal' of a nuclear free world.

Finally someone takes a look back at the world before the nuclear bomb and realizes that it was a world filled with violence far beyond anything we have seen since.

I wish the peaceniks who sit around holding hands and singing songs would come to the realization that war is not caused by being strong and powerful, but by being weak.

Osama attacked us because he thought we were weak and wouldn't have the strength to respond.
Saddam invaded Kuwait because he thought we wouldn't interfere.
And Hezbollah started the 2006 Lebanon War by accident because it thought that Israel would not respond as strongly as they did.

Being strong does not start wars, being weak does.
Time Magazine via Yahoo.com

President Barack Obama's Nobel peace surprise was given "primarily for his work on and commitment to nuclear disarmament," according to Agot Valle, a Norwegian politician who served on the award committee. Valle told the Wall Street Journal that the stewards of the prize wanted to "support" Obama's goal, as expressed recently at the United Nations, "of a world without nuclear weapons."
It's tough to think of a goal more widely espoused than the dream of an H-bomb-free planet. Ronald Reagan and Jane Fonda, political opposites, came together on this one - in his second term, Reagan stunned his own advisers and Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev by suggesting a treaty that would take nuclear arsenals down to "zero." (See pictures of President Obama's first eight months of diplomacy.)
As long as a nukeless world remains wishful thinking and pastoral rhetoric, we'll be all right. But if the Nobel committee truly cares about peace, they will think a little harder about actually trying to make it a reality. Open a history book and you'll see what the modern world looks like without nuclear weapons. It is horrible beyond description.
During the 31 years leading up to the first atomic bomb, the world without nuclear weapons engaged in two global wars resulting in the deaths of an estimated 78 million to 95 million people, uniformed and civilian. The world wars were the hideous expression of what happens when the human tendency toward conflict hooks up with the violent possibilities of the industrial age. The version of this story we are most familiar with today is the Nazi death machinery, and so we are often tempted to think that if Hitler had not happened, we would never have encountered assembly line murder. (See TIME's photo-essay "Fun with Photoshop: Obama's Other Awards")
The truth is that industrial killing was practiced by many nations in the old world without nuclear weapons. Soldiers were gassed and machine-gunned by the hundreds of thousands in the trenches of World War I, when Hitler was just another corporal in the Kaiser's army. By World War II, countries on both sides of the war used airplanes and artillery to rain death on battlefields as well as cities, until the number killed around the world was so huge the best estimates of the total number lost diverge by some 16 million souls. The dead numbered 62 million, or 78 million - somewhere in there.
So, when last we saw a world without nuclear weapons, human beings were killing each other with such feverish efficiency that they couldn't keep track of the victims to the nearest 15 million. Over three decades of industrialized war, the planet had averaged around three million dead per year. Why did that stop happening? (See the top 10 Obama-backlash moments.)
Is it because people no longer found reasons to fight? Hundreds if not thousands of wars, small and large, have been fought since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Is it because nations and tribes found a conscience regarding mass death? Clearly not - the slaughter in China during the Cultural Revolution, in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, in Rwanda between Hutu and Tutsi offer bloody proof. Is it the United Nations? Um, no. Is it globalism, and the web of commerce that increasingly connects the interests of the major powers? Yes, that certainly has an impact. But the global economy is a creation of the nuclear age. Major powers find ways to get along because the cost of armed conflict between them has become unthinkably high.
A world with nuclear weapons in it is a scary, scary place to think about. The industrialized world without nuclear weapons was a scary, scary place for real. But there is no way to un-ring the nuclear bell. The science and technology of nuclear weapons is widespread, and if nukes are outlawed someday, only outlaws will have nukes. (See TIME's Person of the Year: Barack Obama)
Instead of fantasies about a nuke-free planet where formerly bloodthirsty humans live together in peace, what the world needs is a safer, more stable nuclear umbrella. That probably means fewer nukes in fewer hands - when President Obama talks about strengthening the non-proliferation regime and stepping up efforts to secure loose nukes, he is on the right track. Nuclear weapons are only helpful if they are never used.
But zero weapons is a terrible idea. As bad as they are, nukes have been instrumental in reversing the long, seemingly inexorable trend in modernity toward deadlier and deadlier conflicts. If the Nobel committee wants someday to honor the force that has done the most over the past 60 years to end industrial-scale war, they will award a peace prize to the bomb.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,431
33,018
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PJ, maybe now you'll understand why I don't get my undies in a knot over Iran developing nuclear weapons.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
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I would argue that the Cuban missile crisis is a prime time example of how flawed that logic is. Even rational leaders of large, industrialized countries came to a near mutual annihilation.

Plus in the case of terrorism, assured destruction won't scare people that aren't afraid of death

?We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.?
-OBL
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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It's fun to wonder what wars we would or wouldn't have had if nuclear weapons had never been designed. They certainly do have a demoralizing influence on wanting to go to war if you're against a nation that has nukes.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
This article from Time is a brilliant rebuttal to Obama being award the peace prize for his 'goal' of a nuclear free world.


Topic Title: Why the Nobel Peace Prize Should Go to Nuclear Weapons
Topic Summary: Brilliant rebuttal to Obama's peace prize.

The best part is you have to live with yourself knowing that Obama's finger is in control of the nukes. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I would argue that the Cuban missile crisis is a prime time example of how flawed that logic is. Even rational leaders of large, industrialized countries came to a near mutual annihilation.
But it didn't happen. We had WWI, then WWII, and since then everything between nuclear nations has been a proxy war at the most, supporting non nuclear nations who fight each other. Once those get nukes there will be no proxies to use as pawns anymore.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
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This is one of the most short-sighted articles I have ever read. Before I go any further, I would add that this author SUPPORTS Obama's efforts at non-proliferation, so your sub-title is complete distortion.

The reason nuclear weapons were not utilized during events such as the Cuban Missile Crisis were due to other technological innovations. U-2 spy planes maintaining constant coverage of the situation being a prime one. If Kennedy didn't have evidence that Russia was backing down, you can damn well bet it would have escalated. You also cannot downplay the advances in communication that occurred between WW2 and 1962. Just look at Pearl Harbor, even after we were attacked it took DAYS for most Americans to learn the details of what happened. Television didn't exist, it wasn't like 9/11 where we could tune in and watch ourselves being attacked. Even in 62 it still took hours for messages to be sent between the Kremlin and White House (via telegram).

Hell, the Cuban Missile Crisis is a prime example of a non-proliferation agreement and the dismantlement of weapons preventing a nuclear war.

There have been TONS of technological advancements since nuclear weapons were created that account for the lowering body counts of the wars we fight. Satellite technology, jet engines, the internet (which was a military project), precision guided munitions, stealth technology, ect. We have access to knowledge now that people born during WW2 couldn't even imagine.

We still carpet bombed the living be-jesus out of Japan despite being close to having a nuclear bomb ready. It didn't stop us, and it wouldn't stop us today from bombing another country if we didn't have some of the above technologies. Having thousands of nukes has done nothing to slow the proliferation of the weapons to other countries. It hasn't stopped rogue regimes from obtaining them. They are worthless against terrorist networks (who are way to decentralized). MAD doctrine is woefully outdated, it just doesn't work in modern times.

 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
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Topic Title: Why the Nobel Peace Prize Should Go to Obama and the American People

Topic Summary: Brilliant rebuttal and repudiation to George Bush, President Cheney and the NeanderCon GOP for their unilateral near-destruction of America


Fixed.





 

OFFascist

Senior member
Jun 10, 2002
985
0
0
Not a very well thought out article but I agree with the premise.

The fact that we had nuclear weapons surely prevented WWIII between the US and the Soviet Union. It was only the threat of tactical and strategic nukes that prevented them from invading the rest of Europe during the cold war years.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: OFFascist
Not a very well thought out article but I agree with the premise.

The fact that we had nuclear weapons surely prevented WWIII between the US and the Soviet Union. It was only the threat of tactical and strategic nukes that prevented them from invading the rest of Europe during the cold war years.

i agree.

trouble is now to many countries have them. Some of them hate pretty much everyone that is not them and have no problem dieing.

the world is getting to be a scarry place. i was never scared of russia attacking but i am about the ME.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Originally posted by: ironwing
PJ, maybe now you'll understand why I don't get my undies in a knot over Iran developing nuclear weapons.

lol. Massive pwnage.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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Its all well and fine to accept being strong equals immunity from attack. And nothings spells strong like being the first kid on the block to have a nuke.

But we have another two chilling technology that changes everything and that lies in the invention of the smart bomb and stealth aircraft.

Before the invention of the smart bomb, small countries at least had a fighting chance and some warning before being attacked
by a near or distant neighbor. As the modern version of war always involves the process of attacking from the air, thereby destroying that countries ability to resist the coming ground invasion, and the defenders had an advantage in having fixed in place defenses to blunt that possible air attack. And usually got months of warnings because the attacking country had to transfer the massive weight of bombs and equipment to some nearby base close to the country about to be attacked. Giving the defender the time to make diplomacy work and secure allies. And then the pre ground invasion phase of bombing would often take months simply because 99% of the bombs end up exploding harmlessly because they miss their targets. And the defender has a fighting chance of taking out the attackers planes in a war of attrition.

Stealth technology and smart bombs totally change that conventional war calculus. The defender can not see what is attacking it,
bombs are almost 100% efficient at hitting their targets, and even a single air craft carrier in the neighborhood can take down the bulk of a countries offensive and defensive capacity in a single day.

In many ways, GWB's invasion of Iraq sent a chilling message to every medium sized resource rich nation on earth. The idea that a powerful country could lie its way into war over imaginative threads of WMD, whip up hysteria before cooler heads can think, and then strike fast, and follow it up with a ground invasion that takes down the central government in a week. Which has every similar country asking itself, am I going to be next? Nor does the fear of a stronger power inspire love, and instead inspires a overwhelming desire to acquire the nuclear weapons that will provide immunity from such attacks.

It could be argued that this explains the Iranian nuclear program, and explain why 40 other countries are applying to the IAEA to start nuclear programs of their own.

As for Ossama bin Laden and his ilk, here they invest maybe a few hundred thousands of dollars, attack the United States, arguably the strongest country on earth, and then just let US stupidity get it involved in two quagmires that greatly weakens
it economically while spreading its military dangerously thin. It thus is hardly what any rational man can argue is not an Ossama victory. And even if the GWB so called war on terror has somewhat weakened Al-Quida, we now have more terrorists than ever before as Al-Quida recruiting stations do land office business.

And Ossama and his ilk, they can retreat to some cave, do damn near nothing, as they just sit back and watch the USA keep jumping off every cliff in a path of self destruction.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
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Originally posted by: Carmen813
There have been TONS of technological advancements since nuclear weapons were created that account for the lowering body counts of the wars we fight. Satellite technology, jet engines, the internet (which was a military project), precision guided munitions, stealth technology, ect.

Just to be an asshole I will point out that jet engines were developed before the nukes.

As for the notion that nukes save lives, its has been true for quite a while now, but there is no doubt in my mind (nor should there be a doubt in anyone's mind) that nukes will be used in war again. It is most likely that a nuclear war will occur in most of our lifetimes. Usually major wars are separated by a complete generation, once the majority of people have forgotten the horrors of war and being to view it as an honorable enterprise war becomes more and more inevitable. There have been several technologies in hisotry that the inventors thought would end warfare, but all they did were increase its capacity for death. The crossbow was though to be an end to war since it meant an untrained peasent could kill a well trained (and very expensively equipped) knight. The machine gun was though to end war because it would be so deadly that men would rather talk things out then face it. The same is said of nukes, but no weapon of war has ever not been used after being developed, nukes are no exception.
 

fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
1,787
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Saddam invaded Kuwait because our deal with him said that much.

We only intervened because the arrangement became "politically detrimental."
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,528
9,750
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Originally posted by: ironwing
PJ, maybe now you'll understand why I don't get my undies in a knot over Iran developing nuclear weapons.

Yeah, they're all fine and dandy until they proliferate down to the lowest sum sucking denominator, after which the resulting detonations will change your mind, if you're still alive.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,528
9,750
136
Originally posted by: Dari
I'm all for every nation having nukes.

Sudan sure could use a few, they could take care of their blasphemous refugee problem.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
So that's the 06 Congressional, 08 Congressional, 08 presidential election, and recent economic collapse PJ completely blew, and he thinks being "strong" with nuclear weapons creates peace. Truly hilarious.
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
13,983
3,330
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Interesting article but the op is a fucking moron. If you can't come up with better commentary than that just post the article and stfu.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

But zero weapons is a terrible idea. As bad as they are, nukes have been instrumental in reversing the long, seemingly inexorable trend in modernity toward deadlier and deadlier conflicts. If the Nobel committee wants someday to honor the force that has done the most over the past 60 years to end industrial-scale war, they will award a peace prize to the bomb.

Why the author of the article should go to hell!

Osama attacked us because he thought we were weak and wouldn't have the strength to respond.
Saddam invaded Kuwait because he thought we wouldn't interfere.
And Hezbollah started the 2006 Lebanon War by accident because it thought that Israel would not respond as strongly as they did.

Being strong does not start wars, being weak does.

Why the OP should join him. :roll:
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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In short, Non Prof John may be correct that nuclear weapons have some effects, but IMHO, the article cited by PJ is hardly the thinking man's poster child for brilliant.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
As for Ossama bin Laden and his ilk, here they invest maybe a few hundred thousands of dollars, attack the United States, arguably the strongest country on earth, and then just let US stupidity get it involved in two quagmires that greatly weakens
it economically while spreading its military dangerously thin. It thus is hardly what any rational man can argue is not an Ossama victory. And even if the GWB so called war on terror has somewhat weakened Al-Quida, we now have more terrorists than ever before as Al-Quida recruiting stations do land office business.

I've always thought this. Even after the attacks on 9/11 I knew that our reaction was what they were after. They played us and won.

 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Originally posted by: Lemon law
As for Ossama bin Laden and his ilk, here they invest maybe a few hundred thousands of dollars, attack the United States, arguably the strongest country on earth, and then just let US stupidity get it involved in two quagmires that greatly weakens
it economically while spreading its military dangerously thin. It thus is hardly what any rational man can argue is not an Ossama victory. And even if the GWB so called war on terror has somewhat weakened Al-Quida, we now have more terrorists than ever before as Al-Quida recruiting stations do land office business.

I've always thought this. Even after the attacks on 9/11 I knew that our reaction was what they were after. They played us and won.
What exactly did Osama win??

1. The guy lives in a cave fearful of his life.
2. His movement has suffered a huge setback.
3. Hundreds of thousands of his fellow Muslims have died since 9-11 compared to a few thousand westerners.

9-11 was a huge mistake by the Islamists. They would have been far better off continuing their strategy of attacking us in far away countries that most Americans can't even locate.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

But zero weapons is a terrible idea. As bad as they are, nukes have been instrumental in reversing the long, seemingly inexorable trend in modernity toward deadlier and deadlier conflicts. If the Nobel committee wants someday to honor the force that has done the most over the past 60 years to end industrial-scale war, they will award a peace prize to the bomb.

Why the author of the article should go to hell!

Osama attacked us because he thought we were weak and wouldn't have the strength to respond.
Saddam invaded Kuwait because he thought we wouldn't interfere.
And Hezbollah started the 2006 Lebanon War by accident because it thought that Israel would not respond as strongly as they did.

Being strong does not start wars, being weak does.

Why the OP should join him. :roll:
Would you care to add some substance to your personal attacks?