Why the liberal arts are important: Learning to reflect

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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Being the forum for a tech-oriented website, I think that we skew towards the math, engineering and computing disciples, and as a result have a tendency to think highly of those majors because it confirms out own life choices. One of the ways this plays out is derision towards people who enroll in majors that are not quite as directly translatable to the job market.

Being something of a contrarian, I thought I'd offer an argument to the contrary. I say that Liberal majors are important - and if a comparison can be done, maybe they're more important than ours are. (I hold a degree in computer science and have been employed for 10+ years as a software developer.) Engineering may allow us to live longer and better, but liberal arts let us find understanding in others and ourselves.

As evidence, I offer portions of a piece from 1997 by the late Earl Shorris. It's about his attempt to teach a group of impoverished Americans about the humanities. It's really quite profound and, I think, one of the only true ways to permanently solve poverty in the world. Enjoy the read.

Harper's Magazine - On the Uses of a Liberal Education, Part II: As a weapon in the hands of the restless poor

We had never met before. The conversation around us focused on the abuse of women. [Viniece Walker]'s eyes were perfectly opaque—hostile, prison eyes. Her mouth was set in the beginning of a sneer.

“You got to begin with the children,” she said, speaking rapidly, clipping out the street sounds as they came into her speech.

She paused long enough to let the change of direction take effect, then resumed the rapid, rhythmless speech. “You’ve got to teach the moral life of downtown to the children. And the way you do that, Earl, is by taking them downtown to plays, museums, concerts, lectures, where they can learn the moral life of downtown.”

I smiled at her, misunderstanding, thinking I was indulging her. “And then they won’t be poor anymore?”

She read every nuance of my response, and answered angrily, “And they won’t be poor no more.”

“What you mean is—”

“What I mean is what I said—a moral alternative to the street.”

She didn’t speak of jobs or money. In that, she was like the others I had listened to. No one had spoken of jobs or money. But how could the “moral life of downtown” lead anyone out from the surround of force? How could a museum push poverty away? Who can dress in statues or eat the past? And what of the political life? Had Niecie skipped a step or failed to take a step? The way out of poverty was politics, not the “moral life of downtown.”

But to enter the public world, to practice the political life, the poor had first to learn to reflect. That was what Niecie meant by the “moral life of downtown.” She did not make the error of divorcing ethics from politics. Niecie had simply said, in a kind of shorthand, that no one could step out of the panicking circumstance of poverty directly into the public world.

Although she did not say so, I was sure that when she spoke of the “moral life of downtown” she meant something that had happened to her. With no job and no money, a prisoner, she had undergone a radical transformation. She had followed the same path that led to the invention of politics in ancient Greece. She had learned to reflect.

In further conversation it became clear that when she spoke of “the moral life of downtown” she meant the humanities, the study of human constructs and concerns, which has been the source of reflection for the secular world since the Greeks first stepped back from nature to experience wonder at what they beheld.

If the political life was the way out of poverty, the humanities provided an entrance to reflection and the political life. The poor did not need anyone to release them; an escape route existed. But to open this avenue to reflection and politics a major distinction between the preparation for the life of the rich and the life of the poor had to be eliminated.

...

A few days later Lynette Lauretig arranged a meeting with some of her staff at The Door. We disagreed about the course. They thought it should be taught at a much lower level. Although I could not change their views, they agreed to assemble a group of Door members who might be interested in the humanities.

Having failed in the South Bronx, I resolved to approach these prospective students differently. “You’ve been cheated,” I said. “Rich people learn the humanities; you didn’t. The humanities are a foundation for getting along in the world, for thinking, for learning to reflect on the world instead of just reacting to whatever force is turned against you. I think the humanities are one of the ways to become political, and I don’t mean political in the sense of voting in an election but in the broad sense.” I told them Thucydides’ definition of politics.

“Rich people know politics in that sense. They know how to negotiate instead of using force. They know how to use politics to get along, to get power. It doesn’t mean that rich people are good and poor people are bad. It simply means that rich people know a more effective method for living in this society.

“Do all rich people, or people who are in the middle, know the humanities? Not a chance. But some do. And it helps. It helps to live better and enjoy life more. Will the humanities make you rich? Yes. Absolutely. But not in terms of money. In terms of life.

“Rich people learn the humanities in private schools and expensive universities. And that’s one of the ways in which they learn the political life. I think that is the real difference between the haves and have-nots in this country. If you want real power, legitimate power, the kind that comes from the people and belongs to the people, you must understand politics. The humanities will help."

...

One Saturday morning in January, David Howell telephoned me at home. “Mr. Shores,” he said, Anglicizing my name, as many of the students did.

“Mr. Howell,” I responded, recognizing his voice.

“How you doin’, Mr. Shores?”

“I’m fine. How are you?”

“I had a little problem at work.”

Uh-oh, I thought, bad news was coming. David is a big man, generally good-humored but with a quick temper. According to his mother, he had a history of violent behavior. In the classroom he had been one of the best students, a steady man, twenty-four years old, who always did the reading assignments and who often made interesting connections between the humanities and daily life. “What happened?”

“Mr. Shores, there’s a woman at my job, she said some things to me and I said some things to her. And she told my supervisor I had said things to her, and he called me in about it. She’s forty years old and she don’t have no social life, and I have a good social life, and she’s jealous of me.”

“And then what happened?” The tone of his voice and the timing of the call did not portend good news.

“Mr. Shores, she made me so mad, I wanted to smack her up against the wall. I tried to talk to some friends to calm myself down a little, but nobody was around.”

“And what did you do?” I asked, fearing this was his one telephone call from the city jail.

“Mr. Shores, I asked myself, ‘What would Socrates do?’ ”

David Howell had reasoned that his co-worker’s envy was not his problem after all, and he had dropped his rage.

...
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
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Liberal Arts is very important. Just dont use my tax dollars to pay for it.
Pay for your own degree or get something worth money in the real world.
 
Oct 25, 2006
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Liberal Arts is "supposed" to encompass the sciences. You study engineering and combine it with liberal arts in order to be able to think about things in different ways. Its a supplement.

Liberal Arts does not mean you take Medieval Literature and expect to get a job.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
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Liberal Arts is very important. Just dont use my tax dollars to pay for it.
Pay for your own degree or get something worth money in the real world.

They're not "your" tax dollars, degrees are paid for with debt anyway (not tax money), and saying that something is "very important", but worth $0 to you, is a bit odd, don't you think?
 

skimple

Golden Member
Feb 4, 2005
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The unfortunate thing is that most Liberal Arts Majors are incapable of critical thinking.
 

chusteczka

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2006
3,399
3
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I agree that liberal arts is important and more of such education would benefit everyone.

It would benefit society to universally provide an associate's degree with more exposure to liberal arts and an introduction to a skilled occupation, as part of the public education system.

At the same time though, while the article makes a good point, I do not like when some authors feel the need to overly embellish their work with tangential thought of no value to the story or discussion.

There is a similarity between an author's over embellishment in their writing with trivial marketing statements created to obfuscate a functional product. When created intelligently and succinctly, they can both add value but they can both easily slip into triviality.

This article slipped into trivial whimsical thought that lost me as a reader.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
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I think it's necessary. I meet too many poeple are aren't pragmatic about anything in their lives - many of those are people with technical degress. Hell - most probably couldn't even tell me what pragmatism is.

As it's been pointed out, liberal arts degrees can suppliment and apply to nearly every technical degree available.
 
Mar 16, 2005
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technologyliberalarts.jpg
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
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They're not "your" tax dollars, degrees are paid for with debt anyway (not tax money), and saying that something is "very important", but worth $0 to you, is a bit odd, don't you think?

The govt backs those loans, and lets you deduct the interest as well. Not to mention tuition grants and federal funding direct to the colleges. Your tax dollars are very much in play.

I'm not in support of wiping out all funding/govt back loans for Lib arts, but the Fed should put a cap on the # of certain degrees they will support each year. The country only needs so many unemployed poetry majors. If software engineering ever becomes such a worthless degree, I would support a cap on funding for it as well.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
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I learned more about society and politics in "Intro to Anthropology" and "Intro to Sociology" than 5 full-time years of engineering. I kind of now regret not getting an art's degree - only reason I say that is because my craptastic engineering studies got me a job though.

On the other hand, I could have done a 4 year arts degree for $10k-15k cheaper, then went to college for a 2 or 3 year diploma and gotten my current job (underemployed and now realise I hate my field). So...

Art degrees are fine as long as you don't blow $50k-$100k and move half-way across the country for one.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
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aaaaand it goes from someone making a legitimate point about having a well rounded education to a squabble regarding taxes.

Well done!
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
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aaaaand it goes from someone making a legitimate point about having a well rounded education to a squabble regarding taxes.

Well done!

The OP was about taxes, at least partly. He just didn't come right out and say it.

One of the ways this plays out is derision towards people who enroll in majors that are not quite as directly translatable to the job market

The source of this has much to do with taxes. Taxes help pay for degree, then taxes help pay for the unemployed holder of that degree. If you want to "reflect" on the root cause, guess what, it's taxes.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
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The source of this has much to do with taxes. Taxes help pay for degree, then taxes help pay for the unemployed holder of that degree. If you want to "reflect" on the root cause, guess what, it's taxes.

You can't even comprehend your own goddamn point?

One of the ways this plays out is derision towards people who enroll in majors that are not quite as directly translatable to the job market

#1 The source of this issue has nothing to do with goddamn taxes. Read that damn line you're quoting

#2 You and other idiots picked out a single line and made it represent the entire article like the fucking retards you really are. Read then comment, not comment then read.

#3For the love of fuck, please don't ever vote, have children, or show your face in ATOT again

This is what happens when you leave the cellar door open.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
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You can't even comprehend your own goddamn point?



#1 The source of this issue has nothing to do with goddamn taxes. Read that damn line you're quoting

#2 You and other idiots picked out a single line and made it represent the entire article like the fucking retards you really are. Read then comment, not comment then read.

#3For the love of fuck, please don't ever vote, have children, or show your face in ATOT again

This is what happens when you leave the cellar door open.

umm, k. So you don't like the arguments being made so you fly off the handle without any valid retort? Call those you disagree with stupid... ya thats a good point. Either make a valid argument or STFU.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
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Pell grant, GI bill, etc.?

Both of those are general, not liberal-arts specific, don't comprise a large part of the average student's aid package (come on, the MAX Pell grant is less than $6k/year, and that's only if your family is destitute), and/or are given to people who have earned them, not handed out to all comers.

I'm not saying that taxes aren't somewhat involved in liberal arts education, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to everything else that taxes pay for, and you'd think that anyone who is willing to say that liberal arts are "very important" wouldn't mind a tiny, TINY percentage of their taxes going to support them. Did I mention "tiny"?
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
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umm, k. So you don't like the arguments being made so you fly off the handle without any valid retort? Call those you disagree with stupid... ya thats a good point. Either make a valid argument or STFU.

Yeah, but then again, he is correct.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
3,510
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The source of this has much to do with taxes. Taxes help pay for degree, then taxes help pay for the unemployed holder of that degree. If you want to "reflect" on the root cause, guess what, it's taxes.

The source of the problems that liberal arts majors face in the current job market has to do with taxes? Really? Is that what you're saying? Because people pay for taxes that liberal arts majors benefit from (among every-fucking-body else that benefits from them as well) is THE SOURCE of their difficulties in the job market?

Let's actually read what your quote actually says:

One of the ways this plays out is derision towards people who enroll in majors that are not quite as directly translatable to the job market

Not only is it completely out of context, but you also managed to pull something out of that quote that has little, if anything, to do with taxes.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
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have a tendency to think highly of those majors because it confirms out own life choices

This part is also a bit loaded. Do I think highly of my major because I want to affirm myself? Or did I pick my major because I thought highly of it? You can't tell me what my intentions were. Seems to be setting up a false premise to support a weak argument.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
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The source of the problems that liberal arts majors face in the current job market has to do with taxes? Really? Is that what you're saying? Because people pay for taxes that liberal arts majors benefit from (among every-fucking-body else that benefits from them as well) is THE SOURCE of their difficulties in the job market?

Let's actually read what your quote actually says:



Not only is it completely out of context, but you also managed to pull something out of that quote that has little, if anything, to do with taxes.

Your first problem is reading comprehension. I never said the source of liberal arts majors problems is taxes, I said the source of the problem quoted had to do with taxes. There is a pretty big difference there. Grasp that first. The same quoted text ADMITS the source of their own problem.... majors that don't translate well to the job market.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
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I never said the source of liberal arts majors problems is taxes,

The quote is about liberal arts and other majors not seen as highly sought after in the job market

I said the source of the problem quoted had to do with taxes

The source of the problem has to do with them not being hired. It's about jobs, not fucking taxes. Your point isn't that taxes are the source of the problem but rather that they contribute to it by allowing people to more easily enter majors that won't be as sought after. At least, that's the only possible point you can make here. Instead, your actual point was something about taxes actually BEING the reason why liberal arts majors can't find a goddamn job.

Jesus fucking Christ, you seriously are mentally retarded, aren't you?

This epitomizes a rampant idiot with an agenda who picks apart an article, ignores the content (and oddly enough the context and content of the quote in question) in order to hammer down a point that has little to do with the original article.

It's like picking up Walden, going "I hate trees" and running off on a rant about how you fucking hate trees then pretending the entire book was about trees.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
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The quote is about liberal arts and other majors not seen as highly sought after in the job market

No, it's about more than that... read the first half of what I quoted, bolded for you

One of the ways this plays out is derision towards people who enroll in majors that are not quite as directly translatable to the job market.

The derision of engineer types (the target of the OP), to the liberal arts types. The sentence wasn't even about the problems the lib arts majors face in the job market, its about how they are viewed/treated by the engineer types.

Are you getting it yet?