Why so skeptical about UFOs?

[IGBT]

..mabe but so far the "RF model" concept is turning up nothing. We may be living in a cosmic junk yard and need to look well beyond what we consider to be the limits of our detection.

 

[Vic]

Well, in fairness, time is relative, and therefore interstellar travel could be possible for beings with extremely long life spans/time awareness. But we're talking really long, millions of years, where all of humanity/earth would seem to them to be no more than just like a petri dish of bacteria.

 

[slackerinabox]

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

Originally posted by: Yongsta

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
Even though there is life on other planets, there's no good reason to think they can break the light barrier. All sightings are pure horseshit, not just some.

I remember reading about a book by Michio Kaku saying imagine a civilization out there that is hundreds of millions of years older than ours. Its not too hard to expand your mind and imagine that they would know to create wormholes & such to traverse the universe.

An advanced civilization like that would probably already know so much about the universe through observation and simulation they would have no need to involve themselves in such complications. It's like flying to australia to see an ant hill.

Well, I consider myself an Angophile - I love British culture and have studied it from a young age. Still, going to Abbey Road's was high on my to do list and, there I was, taking the cliched picture of me walking across that road.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
laws of physics as we know them
interstellar travel isn't possible if physical objects can't travel faster than the speed of light
it takes too long

Because all intelligent lifeforms in the universe have a lifespan of 75 years (give or take a few years)?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: FoBoT
laws of physics as we know them
interstellar travel isn't possible if physical objects can't travel faster than the speed of light
it takes too long

Because all intelligent lifeforms in the universe have a lifespan of 75 years (give or take a few years)?

Of course not. Time is relative and a "year" only exists on earth. However, in order for such a lifeform to exist (with extremely long lifespans and a relative time awareness that would allow thousands of years and more of space travel to be bearable), one or both of two things would be necessary. Either they come from a planet that travels through so space so rapidly that its time relativity is greatly accelerated (i.e. the planet they evolved from moves through space at some speed approaching c and hence moves through time relatively move slowly), or the lifeform would need to be something other than organic chemical based.
At this point, though, we have now moved well beyond the scientific and into the realm of speculation and fiction.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

I thought that we only aged because every time our cell replicate, they cut off a piece of DNA a.k.a. telomeres. So, if another organism could somehow get around this, they could potentially be almost immortal, or have absurdly long lives.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: IAteYourMother

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Because Jeezus didn't tell us anything about Yoo-Eff-Ohhs...

Remember, if it ain't in the bible...it didn't happen and doesn't exist.


Personally, I believe it's pretty conceited to believe we are the only intelligent life in the universe...especially when you look at what goes on in Washington D.C....

I suspect that MOST UFO sightings are considered to be "Horseshit" because they are...there have been far too many faked sightings over the years, and those fraudulent ones color our opinions of all of them...Kind of like the Nigerian Scam E-mail...We KNOW they are all fake...because MOST of them are. Myself, I am waiting for Prince Mbutu's lawyer to hand deliver $16 million to me. It was supposed to be last week, but he got delayed at Nigerian customs...However, my credit card was still charged for the $10,000 to cover travel expenses and bribes....hey--waidaminit--you don't suppose.....:roll:

Considering how our movie industry has treated visitors from outer-space, or portrayed how WE would treat them, WHY would any intelligent lifeforms WANT to visit here and announce their presence?

man, talk about unnecessary flamebait

On top of that, UFO's are in the Bible FFS... in Ezekiel.

The simple facts are that current scientific theory does NOT support the idea of Advanced Alien Species capable of faster-than-light interstellar travel. Not to say that it isn't possible, but then again so is some Almighty God watching and judging us from the Heavens.

The Ezekial passages have been interpreted in many ways...each trying to prove the point of the arguer...DID Ezekial see what we now call a UFO? Possibly. I can't argue one way or the other. Given the superstition of the ancient peoples in the bible, it's difficult to interpret what happened in those days, especially given all the various translations of the original texts...each skewed by the ruling classes of the interpreters. I'm of the opinion that the various Kings and rulers (King James version for example) had the bible interpreted to fit the knowledge and beliefs of their times, and probably does not reflect what the original texts actually said.

In regard to flame-baiting...isn't that the kinds of arguments the fundies use against dinosaurs? They aren't specifically mentioned in the bible, so the bones found must have been placed by Satan to confuse people and lead them away from the truth...Unless you believe man and dinosaurs co-existed...Fred Flintstone does, so it MUST be true...

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
In regard to flame-baiting...isn't that the kinds of arguments the fundies use against dinosaurs? They aren't specifically mentioned in the bible, so the bones found must have been placed by Satan to confuse people and lead them away from the truth...Unless you believe man and dinosaurs co-existed...Fred Flintstone does, so it MUST be true...

2 wrongs don't make a right. You're just dragging yourself down to their anti-intellectual level. And I don't see any fundies in this thread.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: BoomerD
In regard to flame-baiting...isn't that the kinds of arguments the fundies use against dinosaurs? They aren't specifically mentioned in the bible, so the bones found must have been placed by Satan to confuse people and lead them away from the truth...Unless you believe man and dinosaurs co-existed...Fred Flintstone does, so it MUST be true...

2 wrongs don't make a right. You're just dragging yourself down to their anti-intellectual level. And I don't see any fundies in this thread.

Damm, you say that like it's a BAD thing...

I was making fun of the concept...NOT arguing it...I think that many people use religion to argue against things they don't understand or believe...and the "Dark Ages," the "Inquisitions," the Salem Witch Hunts, and the Conquistadors are all proof of this. It's alleged that the Spanish explorers and conquerors destroyed a lot of knowledge that conflicted with what they knew or believed...there have been numerous claims of UFO's over the history of the world...Look at the Incas, the Aztecs, and the Nazca lines...things that can ONLY be seen from the air...how did they make them? How could they be seen? WHY would they make them?
There are depictions and jewelry of craft from those ancient of days that were far beyond the technology of the day...

 

[NanoStuff]

Originally posted by: tenshodo13
I thought that we only aged because every time our cell replicate, they cut off a piece of DNA a.k.a. telomeres. So, if another organism could somehow get around this, they could potentially be almost immortal, or have absurdly long lives.

We age for may different reasons, that is one of them. Any being that would be at a technological point capable of travelling here would have been far beyond that point of technology. Aging and substantial biological substitution is likely to be achieved within 30 or so years, however there's no expectation we will have obtained such space travel capabilities by then. Any being travelling here would not do this in their biological state, for this very apparent reason that such self modification technology will arrive far before such space travel technology. Therefore any 'UFO' occurrence that suggests a roswell type scenario (meaty aliens with big eyes) must necessarily be false.

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Intelligent aliens might have found our planet, but the odds are against it. They may have the technology to come here, but the odds are very strongly against it.

.

No they're not, what are you, master of the universe? You don't know enough to say that. And if you claim to, it's hardly more credible than the 8th century navigator claiming that the world is flat.



Personally I think the following:


- There are a lot of interesting claims of UFO sightings


If they are aliens, perhaps;



- They are machines. Let's say a species eventually reaches the point of building sentient machines or whatever. Even if they cannot travel faster than light, they may still be able to make the long trip.


- They have achieved faster than light travel. Perhaps by bending space, etcetera.




- Consider the range of our species as it has advanced in age: (a little idea I came up with):



- Several thousand years ago: Humans had a max range of a few hundred miles. Moving on foot


- Further along, humans begin to utilize beasts-of-burden and sea ships, and their range increases to the low thousands


- Further, humans refine these technologies and they can travel faster and more reliably in the 10-25,000 mile range


- Further, humans achieve space-flight, and are able to travel in the hundred-million mile range (or at least their probes are).


So what happens next? Perhaps:


- Humans again refine these new means of travel. Being able to travel in the hundred-million mile range more quickly and with more reliability.


- Technology advances further, and humans begin to travel in the xxxxx light-year's range.


etc



Anyway a thought. That time in existence might have a direct and somewhat predictable correllation to possible range of travel.

 

[Jeff7]

They may well be so advanced that they could visit us or observe us without our knowledge.

Or maybe their teenagers sneak out in their parents' space cruiser to go annoy inhabitants of less advanced planets, a la Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

Originally posted by: Maiora
Who said you had to break the light barrier to traverse the vast dimensions of the universe?

You can only traverse so much. And so much more is simply unreachable. Doesn't matter what the reasoning here is, you still have to do better than film a dot in the sky.

Well sure, for our technology. More advanced civilizations would likely have figured out how to either create a sustainable environment for extended voyages, or "sleeper ships," where the inhabitants would remain unconscious, thus reducing the strain on any life support system.

Originally posted by: TA152H
UFOs means that someone has seen them, and they were here on Earth. It doesn't, at all, mean, humans are the center of the Universe, quite the contrary.

That life exists on other planets is almost a certainty, as the saying goes, nothing happens only once in the Universe (except for creation?). But, the reality is, the Universe is soooooo extensive, that the real question is how close would this life be, and what is the probability of it actually reaching Earth. So, it's the opposite, we're so tiny, even if there are creatures capable of space travel, the chance of them coming here is next to zero.

And that ignores that there is a higher purpose, which evokes religion. So, it is entirely possible that we are alone, if you believe there was a central guiding hand in all this.

In short, the likelihood of aliens actually visiting us here is very small, and there is nothing to prove otherwise, or even give a strong indication of it. It's possible, but so unlikely it's difficult to take seriously with what we have seen so far.

I always use the Hubble Deep Field/Ultra Deep Field images as evidence of life elsewhere. The HUDF is an image of a region of sky 1/10 the width that the full Moon appears in the sky. In it are about 10,000 galaxies, each with billions of stars. Now envision that tiny square, duplicated millions of times, to fill the entire visible sky. Millions upon millions of galaxies, with hundreds of billions of stars each. Anyone seriously thinks we're the only living things in this Universe? You're crazy.

Creation of the Universe - there may well be other Universes out there, other Big Bangs, going on beyond our little pocket of spacetime. The entire region beyond this Universe may well sparkle like stars in our sky, with the light of a myriad of tiny universes popping into existence, and then twinkling as they either dissipate into nothing, or collapse in on themselves.

Then compare our lifespans to the age of the Universe, or even just to the age of this solar system. We're not even a blink in that time. Maybe aliens did visit in great numbers - 200 million years ago. Maybe they will in the future, in another 20,000 years. Maybe they visit regularly, about every million years. How many records would exist from their last visit? How many people alive now will be alive for the next? Entire species could rise and fall in the meantime.

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
The concept of blinking your eyes and instantly teleporting to any point in the universe is "an interesting "loophole" that gets around the constraints of time and lots of space" too. That doesn't make it any more likely than the concept of manipulating space. Inventing farcical abilities is the province of science fiction, not real science.

Surviving speeds faster than 35mph was once considered impossible, as were heavier-than-air flying machines.

Originally posted by: tenshodo13
I thought that we only aged because every time our cell replicate, they cut off a piece of DNA a.k.a. telomeres. So, if another organism could somehow get around this, they could potentially be almost immortal, or have absurdly long lives.

Or even move to entirely artificial bodies and minds. A crew could be placed within sophisticated robots, which could be switched off for the duration of a 500,000 "year" voyage. To them, the trip would pass in an instant - time would be dependent on their own observation.

 

[Modelworks]

I can't recall who said it, but it was one of the astrophysicist.
He was saying that people tend to compare what alien technology and life is like with where we are based on our evolution.

Maybe there is a life form that has been evolving not for the few years that we have been evolving, but were at the same point as us, millions of years ago.

We can't even conceive what a race would be like and what technology they would have.
Humans have only existed for less than a split second when compared with the age of the universe. We just tend to always center everything around us.

Do I think there are aliens visiting the planet ?
Its possible.
Watching those stupid humans kill the planet, each other, and there future.
Probably very entertaining.

 

[biggestmuff]

Life being elsewhere in the universe doesn't mean UFOs exist.

 

[WildHorse]

freedomsbeat212, you already know this, but what you'll mostly get here are opinions of people who took a couple of science courses, & thus imagine themselves quite sophisticated and knowing about your topic, and who think we know pretty much all there is to know about physics.

Still my position



Edit: well the link that's supposed to connect to that old 8 May 2005 post doesn't seem to be working, so it's pasted here:


With vast numbers of stars, & probably vaster numbers of planets, it's irrational (nuts) to insist our Earth has the only life.

In absence of data, you have to make the best guess you can about the OP question.

The most rational guess is that our Earth is at the mean of the distribution of conditions throughout the universe . . .so best guess is we're the average case.

For a guess absent data, it's irrational to assume we're like 5 standard deviations away from the mean (i.e.; that earth is the only place with life), unless some data supports that extreme situation.

Yes there is life throughout the universe.

Roswell ...hmmm, we just don't know. What I've heard has me leaning towards "yes, an alien craft was recovered there."

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
I can't recall who said it, but it was one of the astrophysicist.
He was saying that people tend to compare what alien technology and life is like with where we are based on our evolution.

Maybe there is a life form that has been evolving not for the few years that we have been evolving, but were at the same point as us, millions of years ago.

We can't even conceive what a race would be like and what technology they would have.
Humans have only existed for less than a split second when compared with the age of the universe. We just tend to always center everything around us.

Do I think there are aliens visiting the planet ?
Its possible.
Watching those stupid humans kill the planet, each other, and there future.
Probably very entertaining.

Exactly. We tend to view the Universe in terms of ourselves, and use our own lifespans as a measure. This is a tiny ball of rock and metal, orbiting a common yellow dwarf star in one arm of a common spiral galaxy. One human lifespan encompasses virtually no progress at all when compared to the timespans at work in the greater whole of this Universe.

"What you do is of little significance, but it is very important that you do it." - Mahatma Gandhi

 

[rise]

I can't recall who said it, but it was one of the astrophysicist.
He was saying that people tend to compare what alien technology and life is like with where we are based on our evolution.

Maybe there is a life form that has been evolving not for the few years that we have been evolving, but were at the same point as us, millions of years ago.

We can't even conceive what a race would be like and what technology they would have.

i think that was a spore trailer...

 

[Flyback]

Vic posted some worthwhile commentary you should read.

Assuming one way or another is absurd. The short answer is that no one is absolutely certain what elements and timing made it right for our Earth & its composition and how that compares to other planets that may or may not exist. Drake's equation, while entertaining for the "part-time dinner party philosopher", makes a lot of assumptions and no one really has any idea of the values of the terms.

The "evidence" to support such bold claims of UFOs is almost non-existent. There has been little-to-no "good" and supportive video evidence that does not involve:
a) a super shaky cameraman
b) too zoomed in / without any context
c) nothing detailed, typically just a blob that could be explained through natural phenomenon
d) any residual evidence like purported crash sites that people claim to have found wreckage and their uncle's uncle's friend of a friend has a piece hidden. lots of hot air but no show.
All of these don't help the credibility of the claims.

It is ignorant to take a stance either way on intelligent life (besides our own) existing. I think assuming that "it must exist but we're too selfish/conceited to realize we're not the center of the universe" line of thinking annoys me the most because they purport to have an enlightened position but the truth is there are too many unknown factors and too little evidence. Saying that intelligent life must exist elsewhere is as assinine as denying it.

 

[Ruptga]

Originally posted by: TA152H
UFOs means that someone has seen them, and they were here on Earth. It doesn't, at all, mean, humans are the center of the Universe, quite the contrary.

That life exists on other planets is almost a certainty, as the saying goes, nothing happens only once in the Universe (except for creation?). But, the reality is, the Universe is soooooo extensive, that the real question is how close would this life be, and what is the probability of it actually reaching Earth. So, it's the opposite, we're so tiny, even if there are creatures capable of space travel, the chance of them coming here is next to zero.

And that ignores that there is a higher purpose, which evokes religion. So, it is entirely possible that we are alone, if you believe there was a central guiding hand in all this.

In short, the likelihood of aliens actually visiting us here is very small, and there is nothing to prove otherwise, or even give a strong indication of it. It's possible, but so unlikely it's difficult to take seriously with what we have seen so far.

I think we have a winner folks

 

[AbAbber2k]

The chances of other life finding our planet, even WITH technology that allows them to leap across the universe in a split second is so incredibly slim it might as well be zero. There are approximately 200-400 BILLION stars in our galaxy and there are hundreds of billions of galaxies in the universe. Even if you could jump between each star in our galaxy in a single second, it would take around (Edit for math ) 10,000 YEARS to make all those jumps (assuming an average of 300 billion jumps). Now factor that by another few hundred billion galaxies.

That said, I firmly believe that other life exists outside our solar system. Will we as a race ever live to see it? Somehow I don't think so. This isn't Hollywood. Any race that did stumble upon us would have made OBVIOUS contact with us simply because due to the practically non-existent chance of finding us, they would certainly do a lot more than fly around with their headlights on, mutilate some cows, write in our fields and then fly off.

You'd have to be retarded monkey to believe in a single UFO sighting ever reported.

Of course... this all assumes that other intelligent life is HIGHLY rare, and is non-existent within our galaxy (or at least say, in our particular group of stars/spiral arm. If there is intelligent life in, say, Alpha Centauri then ya, maybe we've been visited. But all signs point to no.

Edit: Basically you have a better chance of winning the lottery every single time for the rest of your life with the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 than anyone other than GOD has of even knowing we exist on our little rock.

 

[miketheidiot]

here is my thought:

First, assume that all advanced species survive by maximizing their individual well being. The better off you are, the more likely you are to survive.

Second, assume that all species have to reproduce, and will have to be equipt to produce a greater quantity that the individual or mating pair (triad, etc) consists of. A mating pair will have to be able to produce more than two individuals, and so on.

every species that achieves intelligence will use that intelligence to exploit there surroundings for their own well being.

every species that achieves intelligence will develop new technologies and systems to improve their well being.

As wellbeing increases, populations will grow rapidly as mortality declines.

Populations exploit long term resources deposits for sort term gain, maximizing their wellbeing.

Populations continue to increase as long as resources are available.

Resources begin to run out, and population crashes. Environment is destroyed in attempts of the population to survive, long term economic output declines. Violence leads to the annihilation of parts of the population, environmental destruction kills most of the rest. Whatever survivors are left (if any) cannot achieve anything as there are few resources left to exploit, and they are too busy pursuing their basic needs anyways.

Basically every advanced species manages to kill itself before it can spread throughout the galaxy.



Think of it as the easter island phenomenon if you want, since its probably the best analogy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_island

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Because Jeezus didn't tell us anything about Yoo-Eff-Ohhs...

Remember, if it ain't in the bible...it didn't happen and doesn't exist.

 

[potoba]

lol, you guys talk like experts!!! Keep it going...

 

[Ruptga]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
here is my thought:

First, assume that all advanced species survive by maximizing their individual well being. The better off you are, the more likely you are to survive.

Second, assume that all species have to reproduce, and will have to be equipt to produce a greater quantity that the individual or mating pair (triad, etc) consists of. A mating pair will have to be able to produce more than two individuals, and so on.

every species that achieves intelligence will use that intelligence to exploit there surroundings for their own well being.

every species that achieves intelligence will develop new technologies and systems to improve their well being.

As wellbeing increases, populations will grow rapidly as mortality declines.

Populations exploit long term resources deposits for sort term gain, maximizing their wellbeing.

Populations continue to increase as long as resources are available.

Resources begin to run out, and population crashes. Environment is destroyed in attempts of the population to survive, long term economic output declines. Violence leads to the annihilation of parts of the population, environmental destruction kills most of the rest. Whatever survivors are left (if any) cannot achieve anything as there are few resources left to exploit, and they are too busy pursuing their basic needs anyways.

Basically every advanced species manages to kill itself before it can spread throughout the galaxy.



Think of it as the easter island phenomenon if you want, since its probably the best analogy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_island

...Unless they put their entire population in a ship 1/3 the size of the moon and invade habitable planets with 15 mile wide daughter ships...

[/ID4]

 

[lyssword]

Today on History channel they were talking about the supposed (based on descriptions) technology of UFO's and what powers them/how they can get here. They say the UFO's would use anti-matter to create a space-bending engine (warp drive) which makes space behind them larger than in front of them. That way they don't have to break the speed of light, get here and still live in the same time as we do . That's the way they'd do it if "they" existed.