Why so sensitive about Mohammed?

[yllus]

Well, if you look at the modern cities and universities you will find the same things being studied etc.
Probably more women involved in science, engineering, etc though over there

Universities in Pakistan and the Middle East are of terrible quality. I think India may have a decent gender mix in the sciences and engineering programs but that is most certainly not the case in Pakistan or the Middle East.

 

[1prophet]

US destroyed Iranian democracy we get an Islamic Republic
US votes against Vietnam elections we get Vietnam war/Socialist Republic
US invades secular Iraq we get Islamic state
US supports Saudi dictatorship we get Wahhabi madrassas's preaching hate all over the Middle East
US invades Afghanistan we just get a bigger mess

Ya, I don't think US intervention is helping?

A lot of truth in this, we Americans turned a blind eye for cheap oil just like today we turn a blind eye towards China in the name of cheap goods.

One bit us in the ass on 9/11 the other one will deliver the knockout blow when the time is right.

 

[1prophet]

While I completely disagree with anyone going off the deep end of violence when religious figures are insulted, don't act like Muslims are unique to this characteristic. Christians were also prone to this kind of thing except they just grew out of it a few hundred years ago.

Remember the crusades? Remember men failing to understand women so they burned them at the stake?

While there were no killings, Catholics lost their collective minds when Sinead O'Connor tore up a picture of the Pope on live TV back in the 90s.

As I remember Sinead O'Connor damaged her career at most, but she didn't have to go into hiding like the girl who started draw Muhammad day, Molly Norris.

And Christians didn't grow out of it no more than the South grew out of slavery and segregation, it required a war and people putting their lives on the line in order to make a better world for their children,

Islam is being held back by the religious leaders bankrolled by billions in oil.

 

[Jeff7]

It's a defense mechanism built into their religion. By responding with extreme violence to anyone that questions or denounces the religion, it stays strong.

Religions without such a mechanism are slowly rendered defunct by logical thought and science.

It's all so very Darwinian.

Or Christianity, whose one deity/son/whatever spoke of love and compassion, has a colorful history as well, with plenty of cruelty, torture, oppression, and murder, all in the name of its benevolent and loving god. Sometimes it was even to protect the name of the all-powerful god, presumably because this omnipotent being needs his little human followers to beat up anyone who bullies him.

But, as some cultures improve themselves despite the local religions, some of the religions evolve to better survive the changing environment. In some cases, this evolution leads to a more tolerant, friendlier persona. In others, the religion develops more powerful weaponry, with the intention of resisting or reversing cultural change that may endanger it.

And many religions don't survive. The list of dead religions is far longer than the list of those still present. It'd be funny if one of the long-dead religions was actually the correct one.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Universities in Pakistan and the Middle East are of terrible quality. I think India may have a decent gender mix in the sciences and engineering programs but that is most certainly not the case in Pakistan or the Middle East.

A quick google shows me lots of advanced universities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_and_colleges_in_Saudi_Arabia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Iran

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Jordan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Kuwait

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Turkey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_and_colleges_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Yemen

Of course there are lot's more
And I don't think India is in the Middle East

edit- oh and while your admiring those beautiful buildings in the pics, take notice of all the women

 

[cybrsage]

Every religion is rendered defunct by logical thought and science.

But you obviously exclude the religion of Scientism, right?

 

[cybrsage]

You question all approaches and solutions but never proffer any yourself?

Put yourself on the line and suggest an approach to the rise of fundamentalist Islam and the totalitarianism of fundamentalist governments as are found in Iran.

Propose an approach for the Christian and other minorities in Egypt.

Propose an approach for Israel that is surrounded by hostile powers.

Propose an approach for Europe that is economically dependent on the region's oil and is facing a tremendous flow is Muslim immigration, an immigrant population that is refusing to become integrated with national ethos.

Propose an approach for India whose many faiths are considered sufficient apostasy to merit death.

Propose an approach for Western liberalism that is facing a challenge by a very illiberal and intolerant dogma.

Propose an approach for the United States, and maybe even Canada.

I have one. Reruns of Seinfeld....seriously, no one will go out and blow someone else up while any of the Soup Nazi's episodes are on. But seriuosly, entertainment is the key...even the Romans understood this.

 

[cybrsage]

And many religions don't survive. The list of dead religions is far longer than the list of those still present. It'd be funny if one of the long-dead religions was actually the correct one.

Interestingly enough, I am of the mindset that any religion which is destroyed cannot have been a religion to a real god. Any god who allows a religion to be created to worship that god would not allow it to be destroyed - it would only make people think that god was not real.

While this does not prove any of the current religions are true, it does provide us a way of showing some of the ones which are not true.

 

[SilthDraeth]

You question all approaches and solutions but never proffer any yourself?

Put yourself on the line and suggest an approach to the rise of fundamentalist Islam and the totalitarianism of fundamentalist governments as are found in Iran.

Propose an approach for the Christian and other minorities in Egypt.

Propose an approach for Israel that is surrounded by hostile powers.

Propose an approach for Europe that is economically dependent on the region's oil and is facing a tremendous flow is Muslim immigration, an immigrant population that is refusing to become integrated with national ethos.

Propose an approach for India whose many faiths are considered sufficient apostasy to merit death.

Propose an approach for Western liberalism that is facing a challenge by a very illiberal and intolerant dogma.

Propose an approach for the United States, and maybe even Canada.

The solution is to leave all the other nations the F alone.

 

[cybrsage]

The solution is to leave all the other nations the F alone.

If all the other nations decided to stop selling oil to us, would you still say that? What if another nation went in and told them to stop selling oil to us?

 

[Alaa]

It's all so very Darwinian.

Or Christianity, whose one deity/son/whatever spoke of love and compassion, has a colorful history as well, with plenty of cruelty, torture, oppression, and murder, all in the name of its benevolent and loving god. Sometimes it was even to protect the name of the all-powerful god, presumably because this omnipotent being needs his little human followers to beat up anyone who bullies him.

But, as some cultures improve themselves despite the local religions, some of the religions evolve to better survive the changing environment. In some cases, this evolution leads to a more tolerant, friendlier persona. In others, the religion develops more powerful weaponry, with the intention of resisting or reversing cultural change that may endanger it.

And many religions don't survive. The list of dead religions is far longer than the list of those still present. It'd be funny if one of the long-dead religions was actually the correct one.

If you read Qur'an you'd know that this type of "evolution" already happened a number of times in the history of humanity.

 

[Jeff7]

Interestingly enough, I am of the mindset that any religion which is destroyed cannot have been a religion to a real god. Any god who allows a religion to be created to worship that god would not allow it to be destroyed - it would only make people think that god was not real.

This assumes that the god even cares in the first place. He could make a universe as a "side project" over a lunch break, flush the toilet, and go back to work. If the beings in that fleeting universe want to worship him as Creator, hey, whatever. Good job little creatures, you're absolutely right about me being a superior being that created you, and I couldn't possibly feel any less indifference toward you. Bye.

it would only make people think that god was not real

Blind faith can lead people to believe anything, even to the point of seeing compassion and benevolence where there is truly nothing, not even indifference.

While this does not prove any of the current religions are true, it does provide us a way of showing some of the ones which are not true.

Or, it simply shows which organizations have developed the best staying power, which ones have the best marketing strategy. That which is alive may not necessarily be the best, or correct, solution. It just means that they're still around, at this particular moment.
Triceratops was around for awhile, but that lineage eventually died out completely.
But the crocodilian order has been around for much much longer than humans, or primates. Does that mean they're a better solution to the problem of remaining alive on Earth? Not really. It just means that they're quite good at surviving. Primates will need quite a few more million years to prove ourselves out as a "better" survival. (And this of course is only a measure of how good a type of life form is at reproducing itself and surviving, which is not necessarily a measure of quality, which is also a very subjective concept.)

But it is still reliant on the assumption that a god entity would care about his created universe, or care about the thoughts and behaviors of the tiny flickering life forms within that universe.

 

[peonyu]

Not all Muslims are fanatical obviously, but it seems there is a relative large (compared to other religions) population that is willing to shed blood (theirs and others) due to some criticism or slight to Mohammed.

Perhaps, I'm simply not aware of it, but I can't recall Christians, Hindus, Buddhists or Jews blowing themselves up or burning down embassies if someone calls Jesus, Brahma, or Buddha a no talent ass clown. Is it a cultural thing? When did their culture change from one of open discourse and innovation (developing algebra, calculus, many basic sciences) to one of any slight criticism leading to calls for blood. I'm not a believer of any religion, but when someone tries to get evangelical on me, I brush them off and don't let it bother me, likewise they brush me off as unsaveble and don't let it bother them. Why can't this population of Muslims do the same thing?

Why so sensitive about Mohammed? He was just a dude who listened to a fairy tale character in the sky. Just a man. Just a messenger. I feel like the message was not received.

Islam was never innovative, Algebra was derived largely from the Greeks and Persians. The Arabs conquered Persia and force converted them to Islam but that doesn't change the fact that it was not developed under Islam. Calculus was developed largely by Indians [hindu], and again Arabs "claim" it as theirs since Pakistan is now Islamic [it was Hindu before the Islamic conquests/force conversions]. True Islam was stricter in the past than it is today...Do you think culture can advance much beyond "Allah Akbar" under that shit ? Afghanistan is a 7th century hole due to that alone.

 

[Jadow]

can the CIA invent a version of AIDS for muslums?

 

[Northern Lawn]

No not really.



Yes that was 400 years ago. Unfortunately that is where Islam is today. Walk through an Islamic city and denounce Islam...let me know how it goes.

Hey dumbass, that is MY point.

 

[yllus]

A quick google shows me lots of advanced universities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_and_colleges_in_Saudi_Arabia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Iran

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Jordan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Kuwait

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Turkey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_and_colleges_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Yemen

Of course there are lot's more
And I don't think India is in the Middle East

edit- oh and while your admiring those beautiful buildings in the pics, take notice of all the women

Nice buildings don't equal a quality education. Even really nice buildings, like Saudi Arabia's beautiful Princess Noora Bint Abdulrahman University campus, mean little when women can't drive themselves to or on campus, can't learn to communicate with men as they'll need to in the workplace, and rather crucially can't actually find work in their area of study after their education is complete.

India is indeed not in the Middle East, but then again when where we talking only about the Middle East? I and others were speaking of the Muslim world, of which India is a significant member. Please read more carefully.

 

[cybrsage]

Islam was never innovative, Algebra was derived largely from the Greeks and Persians. The Arabs conquered Persia and force converted them to Islam but that doesn't change the fact that it was not developed under Islam. Calculus was developed largely by Indians [hindu], and again Arabs "claim" it as theirs since Pakistan is now Islamic [it was Hindu before the Islamic conquests/force conversions]. True Islam was stricter in the past than it is today...Do you think culture can advance much beyond "Allah Akbar" under that shit ? Afghanistan is a 7th century hole due to that alone.

The Abbasid historical period lasting to 1258 (Mongol conquest of Baghdad) is considered the Islamic Golden Age.[1] The Islamic Golden Age was inaugurated by the middle of the 8th century by the ascension of the Abbasid Caliphate and the transfer of the capital from Damascus to Baghdad.[2] The Abbassids were influenced by the Qur'anic injunctions and hadith such as "the ink of a scholar is more holy than the blood of a martyr" stressing the value of knowledge.[2] During this period the Muslim world became an intellectual center for science, philosophy, medicine and education as the Abbasids championed the cause of knowledge and established the House of Wisdom in Baghdad; where both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars sought to translate and gather all the world's knowledge into Arabic.[2] Many classic works of antiquity that would otherwise have been lost were translated into Arabic and Persian and later in turn translated into Turkish, Hebrew and Latin.[2] During this period the Muslim world was a cauldron of cultures which collected, synthesized and significantly advanced the knowledge gained from the ancient Roman, Chinese, Indian, Persian, Egyptian, North African, Greek and Byzantine civilizations.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

It is called The Islamic Golden Age. It was because the leaders at that time believed what is bolded and made larger, above. The Mongols crushed this out of them.

 

[cybrsage]

This assumes that the god even cares in the first place.

That was my stated assumption at the start, yes.

He could make a universe as a "side project" over a lunch break, flush the toilet, and go back to work. If the beings in that fleeting universe want to worship him as Creator, hey, whatever. Good job little creatures, you're absolutely right about me being a superior being that created you, and I couldn't possibly feel any less indifference toward you. Bye.

Blind faith can lead people to believe anything, even to the point of seeing compassion and benevolence where there is truly nothing, not even indifference.

Any god who creates a religion for people to use to worship that god would not allow that religion to be destroyed. That defeats the purpose of creating the religion.

Or, it simply shows which organizations have developed the best staying power, which ones have the best marketing strategy. That which is alive may not necessarily be the best, or correct, solution. It just means that they're still around, at this particular moment.
Triceratops was around for awhile, but that lineage eventually died out completely.
But the crocodilian order has been around for much much longer than humans, or primates. Does that mean they're a better solution to the problem of remaining alive on Earth? Not really. It just means that they're quite good at surviving. Primates will need quite a few more million years to prove ourselves out as a "better" survival. (And this of course is only a measure of how good a type of life form is at reproducing itself and surviving, which is not necessarily a measure of quality, which is also a very subjective concept.)

Agreed, and I covered that already as well. Did you bother to read what I wrote?

 

[stag3]

hallowed are the ori

 

[Exterous]

Could we see a Caliphate state in the Middle East? What if all the Arab states merged?

You'd only see that after a lot of bloodshed between ME countries. The Muslim faith is not a monolithic block. The Sunnis and Shiite factions have a very long history (since ~630 AD) of animosity towards eachother and neither one wants to be ruled by the other

 

[Jeff7]

That was my stated assumption at the start, yes.

Ok. Just pointing out that the rest of the argument rests entirely on that assumption.
If the assumption is incorrect, the rest falls apart.

Any god who creates a religion for people to use to worship that god would not allow that religion to be destroyed. That defeats the purpose of creating the religion.

Assumption here: Gods create religions.

Agreed, and I covered that already as well. Did you bother to read what I wrote?

Yup, which is what I was responding to.
I was mainly focusing on the "it does provide us a way of showing some of the ones which are not true" statement, which is also resting on the assumptions that the god cares about any followers, and that gods create religions - both of which I see no evidence of.
- This world is quite uncaring, and hostile to life in general. Yeah, life came about here, so it's not as hostile as most of the rest of the Universe, but life on this planet needs to reproduce constantly in order to simply continue to exist, due to the hostile and corrosive nature of the environment.
- There's plenty of history to show where human religions came from. Quite a bit of it stems from using hallucinogenic compounds, or from "I heard a voice in my head last night and here's what it told me," neither of which I consider to be signs of divine influence. Others just took an existing religion, twiddled with some of the names and events, and slapped a fresh label on it.

hallowed are the ori

Much better than the false gods that came before, eh shol'vah?

 

[piasabird]

Murderers dont need logical reasoning to kill their victims.

 

[piasabird]

Maybe next time some talk show host criticizes christianity christians will burn down the studio.

 

[Atreus21]

The acoustics of a mind too small to encompass the argument aren't really relevant.

The acoustics? Aren't relevant?

I don't get it.

 

[Oric]

There is an actual state that fights, kills, tortures, sweeps out humans from their homelands because it is called their holy land in an ancirnt scripture. This state is Israel and most of the western world is so sensitive that it should be there and be defended for a religous reason. I ask the same question : Why so sensitive about Israel ? After all it is in the same league as Mohammed, based on religion. Instead of angry mobs, it is protected by smart bombs and weapons as well world wide media.