Why so much fuss over Obamacare?

[Zodiark1593]

The P/N section is not really constructive for this type of topic so I'm hoping it will be better here.

Why is there so much fuss about it? I've posted in numerous places how bad our current healthcare system is. It's incredibly expensive and has no future. 17% of GDP being spend on healthcare is insane while at the same time having your population pay huge sums of money for premiums, copays, and deductibles. All while having millions with no coverage.

Three main points I'd like to bring up to start this topic.

First how much do you guys spend on healthcare as a percent of your income. In other words if you spend $5000 a year and have a $50,000 income then it would be 10%.

Second do you truly have a problem with everyone having healthcare coverage in the USA?

Third, would you have a problem paying a few more percent (as high as 5%) in taxes to get universal healthcare? I ask this question last since if I ask it first I'll get everyone saying no. I'm hoping that if you look at the amount you're paying for healthcare as a percent of your income that it will make more sense.

Say you are a family of 4 and your healthcare costs $5,000 a year. You would have to earn over $100,000 a year for that 5% to be costing you more. Well 80% of American families make less than that.

This is of course not really showing the true cost though. As an employer in the states before moving health insurance was very expensive. The average family actually costs about $15,000 to cover. So your employer is still paying for it. $5,000 is probably only your premium too. So if you're using your health insurance you're probably paying closer to $6,500. Maybe more.

My issue is with the Individual Mandate, either buy health insurance, or pay a penalty. The gov has no right to force me to buy anything. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

Other tidbits, for example, forcing insurance companies to take anyone regardless of condition will undoubtedly raise prices for everyone. I can see this if there was federal or state run insurance companies, but forcing this change upon private companies will be detrimental to those already paying for insurance (there seems to be a few examples already).

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

My issue is with the Individual Mandate, either buy health insurance, or pay a penalty. The gov has no right to force me to buy anything. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

Other tidbits, for example, forcing insurance companies to take anyone regardless of condition will undoubtedly raise prices for everyone. I can see this if there was federal or state run insurance companies, but forcing this change upon private companies will be detrimental to those already paying for insurance (there seems to be a few examples already).

The government has every right, and the power to do so, to force its citizens to buy (pay for) something. You pay taxes right? You're essentially "buying" all the infrastructure that you may or may not use. You buy car insurance right? Same mandate.

Government is responsible for doing the unprofitable thing, because a lot of times the unprofitable thing is necessary for the public good.

 

[AViking]

My issue is with the Individual Mandate, either buy health insurance, or pay a penalty. The gov has no right to force me to buy anything. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

Other tidbits, for example, forcing insurance companies to take anyone regardless of condition will undoubtedly raise prices for everyone. I can see this if there was federal or state run insurance companies, but forcing this change upon private companies will be detrimental to those already paying for insurance (there seems to be a few examples already).

Well they do have the right. You have the right to not live there though. Nobody is forcing you to live in the USA. You can apply for a job elsewhere and emigrate. Of course just about every other western country has healthcare coverage for their people.

So you are one of those who believes that not everyone should be entitled to health care. This is of course your choice but I maintain that you have a much higher standard of living if you have a population that is healthy, not going bankrupt due to medical bills, etc.

Really go back to my original point. How much are you paying now as a percent of your income? What surprises me is that most people don't realize how much they're really spending. You might be paying $200 a month with a $3500 deductible. This is only advantageous if you make very large sums of money. Companies that are paying $15,000 per employee to cover them? That's nuts.

 

[DaveSimmons]

My issue is with the Individual Mandate, either buy health insurance, or pay a penalty. The gov has no right to force me to buy anything. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

Other tidbits, for example, forcing insurance companies to take anyone regardless of condition will undoubtedly raise prices for everyone. I can see this if there was federal or state run insurance companies, but forcing this change upon private companies will be detrimental to those already paying for insurance (there seems to be a few examples already).

Do you realize how these work together?

Right now, insurance companies do not cover pre-existing conditions because many people do not have insurance. They could game the system by waiting to buying insurance until they need it.

If everyone has insurance, then pre-existing conditions are OK because you or your parents have had insurance all of your life and so funds have been going to the companies to cover your expense.

You're also ignoring the issue of emergency room abuse. Right now the ERs are over-crowded with people using them because they have no insurance. People who do have insurance end up paying more to cover for them, and people with insurance who need emergency care have to wait longer or receive worse care because of this.

Unless the country decides to take the uninsured and "put them to sleep" when they need emergency care, it's better for all of us to switch these people to getting normal care from normal staff instead of abusing the ER.

I'll admit that euthanizing the uninsured through "death panels" would be a great source of organs, blood, tissue and Soylent products, but I don't think most Americans will go along with it.

 

[ElFenix]

My issue is with the Individual Mandate, either buy health insurance, or pay a penalty. The gov has no right to force me to buy anything. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

don't buy health insurance, pay more in taxes.

don't buy a house with a big mortgage payment, pay more in taxes.



it's really no different.

 

[OGOC]

The government has every right, and the power to do so, to force its citizens to buy (pay for) something. You pay taxes right? You're essentially "buying" all the infrastructure that you may or may not use. You buy car insurance right? Same mandate.

Car insurance is a state thing, not federal. And if you don't drive a car, you don't have to pay for it. Obamacare requires you to pay a tax just for being alive. The government does not have a right to do that.

 

[AViking]

Car insurance is a state thing, not federal. And if you don't drive a car, you don't have to pay for it. Obamacare requires you to pay a tax just for being alive. The government does not have a right to do that.

Has this been addressed by the courts yet?

 

[Juddog]

Has this been addressed by the courts yet?

The supreme court already decided it's constitutional. At this point anybody who says otherwise is just deluded.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Car insurance is a state thing, not federal. And if you don't drive a car, you don't have to pay for it. Obamacare requires you to pay a tax just for being alive. The government does not have a right to do that.

The government requires you to pay taxes just for being in this country. The government has every right to do it.

 

[AViking]

Yes it was a rhetorical question.

 

[jackstar7]

Car insurance is a state thing, not federal. And if you don't drive a car, you don't have to pay for it. Obamacare requires you to pay a tax just for being alive. The government does not have a right to do that.

You're going to get sick/injured. It's going to happen.

So let's collectively work together to deal with those eventualities so we don't have to be financially, as well as literally, crippled by them.

 

[Juddog]

You're going to get sick/injured. It's going to happen.

So let's collectively work together to deal with those eventualities so we don't have to be financially, as well as literally, crippled by them.

Exactly - it boils down to that you'll pay one way or the other.

Either you pay with a national healthcare system, or you pay locally from the municipality paying the hospital the cost of the patient wandering into the emergency room when they are really sick because they didn't have any preventative care.

 

[OGOC]

The government requires you to pay taxes just for being in this country. The government has every right to do it.

Whether the courts have said it's ok doesn't mean the government has the right to do it. It's wrong.

What other taxes does the U.S. government require to be paid just for being in the country?

 

[MagickMan]

The supreme court already decided it's constitutional. At this point anybody who says otherwise is just deluded.

They said a tax penalty is constitutional, not the mandate itself. They skirted around addressing that directly.

 

[AViking]

They ruled that the mandate could stay. What else do they need to address? Are there more cases coming before their court?

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Car insurance is a state thing, not federal. And if you don't drive a car, you don't have to pay for it. Obamacare requires you to pay a tax just for being alive. The government does not have a right to do that.

Guess what? If you die, you no longer have to pay into health insurance either. No car, no car insurance. No health, no health insurance. It's simple as that.

 

[AViking]

Here is the thing I don't understand. For some reason Americans think that healthcare is an optional thing. It's not. You need it. Not sure what planet anyone lives on that thinks healthcare is an optional thing.

Since I travel a lot I get travel insurance. If I'm in Europe I don't need it since I'm covered as a citizen. What is truly bizarre though is that if I visit the US I need to get short term health insurance. It then gets weird since I live overseas and they penalize you if you haven't had US health insurance for the last 6 months. The basic gist is that if I get sick in the US while visiting it will cost me about $5000. The premium alone pisses me off though. Just to go home and visit. I pay my US taxes and get nothing for them.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Whether the courts have said it's ok doesn't mean the government has the right to do it. It's wrong.

What other taxes does the U.S. government require to be paid just for being in the country?

What?

Our courts are part of the checks and balances of our government and indeed does determine whether or not our government has a right to do something. I'm sorry you feel it is wrong. Our courts don't agree with you.

And you do know that you still have to pay SOMETHING in those states that don't require car insurance right? If you elect not to get car insurance you still have to pay something as a result.

Just like with the ACA.

Ever think about why this is so? Don't just react and say "this is wrong!" but actually think about why car insurance is largely mandatory and why you still have to pay into something if you elect not to get car insurance.

If you don't know this then you don't understand the ACA.

In fact I find it mind boggling that in our history we somehow got compulsory car insurance BEFORE compulsory health insurance.

 

[boomerang]

Here is the thing I don't understand. For some reason Americans think that healthcare is an optional thing. It's not. You need it. Not sure what planet anyone lives on that thinks healthcare is an optional thing.

Since I travel a lot I get travel insurance. If I'm in Europe I don't need it since I'm covered as a citizen. What is truly bizarre though is that if I visit the US I need to get short term health insurance. It then gets weird since I live overseas and they penalize you if you haven't had US health insurance for the last 6 months. The basic gist is that if I get sick in the US while visiting it will cost me about $5000. The premium alone pisses me off though. Just to go home and visit. I pay my US taxes and get nothing for them.

So you're pissed of that you will be charged $5K if you get sick here but are cool with those of us living here having to pay $5K if we get sick. That's the deductible on a lot of Obamacare policies. And like the typical proponent of Obamacare, it's not really about everyone else, it's about you. You love your "free" healthcare in the country you choose to live in and wonder why we have negative thoughts about healthcare our government has mandated us to pay for.

I read an article yesterday that had stories from two people who upon making a Doctor visit were told they had to pay their deductible in full up front before they saw the Doctor. These Doctors evidently knew they weren't going to get reimbursed for their services and did not want to have to fight the patient for their portion of the visit.

Give me all of it right now or find another Doctor. Good stuff. The unintended consequences of Obamacare.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

So you're pissed of that you will be charged $5K if you get sick here but are cool with those of us living here having to pay $5K if we get sick. That's the deductible on a lot of Obamacare policies. And like the typical proponent of Obamacare, it's not really about everyone else, it's about you. You love your "free" healthcare in the country you choose to live in and wonder why we have negative thoughts about healthcare our government has mandated us to pay for.

I read an article yesterday that had stories from two people who upon making a Doctor visit were told they had to pay their deductible in full up front before they saw the Doctor. These Doctors evidently knew they weren't going to get reimbursed for their services and did not want to have to fight the patient for their portion of the visit.

Give me all of it right now or find another Doctor. Good stuff. The unintended consequences of Obamacare.

Link to article? During the year, you pay the full price for any doctor's visits or healthcare costs until you have paid up to the deductible. Then the insurance kicks I'm and pays the agreed-upon amounts based on your plan level. And then there is a max out of pocket that you can reach, after which no matter how expensive the bills are, the insurance picks up 100% of the tab.

 

[AViking]

So you're pissed of that you will be charged $5K if you get sick here but are cool with those of us living here having to pay $5K if we get sick. That's the deductible on a lot of Obamacare policies. And like the typical proponent of Obamacare, it's not really about everyone else, it's about you. You love your "free" healthcare in the country you choose to live in and wonder why we have negative thoughts about healthcare our government has mandated us to pay for.

My problem is that in order to visit the US I have to pay 3-4 times as much for my premium and then still be on the hook for $5000 if I get sick unlike every other place I visit. Plus I get nothing for my tax dollars. Look at worldnomads.com so you can see what normal travel insurance costs me and then compare that to how I get hosed when I go home to visit the USA.

I read an article yesterday that had stories from two people who upon making a Doctor visit were told they had to pay their deductible in full up front before they saw the Doctor. These Doctors evidently knew they weren't going to get reimbursed for their services and did not want to have to fight the patient for their portion of the visit.

Give me all of it right now or find another Doctor. Good stuff. The unintended consequences of Obamacare.

That's the way my insurance worked in the US. I paid for the full doctor's visit until I met my deductible. I had a HSA and insurance.

I get the impression that you don't go to the doctor.

 

[MagickMan]

They ruled that the mandate could stay. What else do they need to address? Are there more cases coming before their court?

SCOTUS rulings are usually very positional, changing a perspective in a case can alter a ruling drastically.

 

[MagickMan]

Link to article? During the year, you pay the full price for any doctor's visits or healthcare costs until you have paid up to the deductible. Then the insurance kicks I'm and pays the agreed-upon amounts based on your plan level. And then there is a max out of pocket that you can reach, after which no matter how expensive the bills are, the insurance picks up 100% of the tab.

Many people will never see the benefit, because they'll seldom ever reach the deductible. It's money out of pocket that doesn't directly benefit them at all, or at least that will be the perspective. The fact it's positioned to hit young adults the hardest tells me that this is going to be a very unpopular piece of legislation in years to come and will prove to be a liability to the Democrats, especially if Repubs can get over their attempts to legislate morality.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Many people will never see the benefit, because they'll seldom ever reach the deductible. It's money out of pocket that doesn't directly benefit them at all, or at least that will be the perspective. The fact it's positioned to hit young adults the hardest tells me that this is going to be a very unpopular piece of legislation in years to come and will prove to be a liability to the Democrats, especially if Repubs can get over their attempts to legislate morality.

I guarantee you - give it enough time and EVERYONE will see the benefit, eventually. This is a long play. Most people don't have the forethought to think that far ahead, but rest assured, it will come.

Unpopular or not, it's something that needs to happen. The alternative is what we had before, people going bankrupt or dying and basically being completely exposed to the full financial brunt of healthcare costs.

For those of us, like me, who have actually had to use insurance to save my financial ass because healthcare costs in this country are simply out of control, I welcome this. Something needs to step in to limit the amount of financial damage that healthcare costs can take on a person.

I'm 28. My premiums will increase by just under 300% with the ACA and my deductible will get much higher as well.

My thoughts?

This absolutely needs to happen.

My ER bill was around $35,000. My yearly premiums under the ACA are $3,600. My max out of pocket for a year is $6,500. As you can see with the simple math, 6 hours in the ER is worth a little under 10 *years* of premiums.

Sounds like a good deal to me.

Those who don't want this to happen are speaking from a position of ignorance. They've never had to struggle with the current healthcare system costs and are only looking at the short term costs such as premiums and deductibles.

And my hospital bill was relatively *cheap*. My dad had heart surgery and the bill was close to $400,000. Even if his premium was $8,000 a year $400,000 / $8,000 is 50 YEARS of premiums.

Again, this is a long play. You have to get everyone to pay into the system, for a long period of time, in order to realize the benefits, which will always come as people age and as life happens.

 

[OGOC]

The government requires you to pay taxes just for being in this country. The government has every right to do it.

What other taxes does the U.S. government require to be paid just for being in the country?

Guess what? If you die, you no longer have to pay into health insurance either. No car, no car insurance. No health, no health insurance. It's simple as that.

And you do know that you still have to pay SOMETHING in those states that don't require car insurance right? If you elect not to get car insurance you still have to pay something as a result.

Just like with the ACA.

Ever think about why this is so? Don't just react and say "this is wrong!" but actually think about why car insurance is largely mandatory and why you still have to pay into something if you elect not to get car insurance.

What other taxes does the U.S. government require to be paid just for being in the country?