Why scoff science?

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DanDaManJC

Senior member
Oct 31, 2004
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it might seem to you that people are just not looking at the evidence in a rational way. but as you dig deeper into the philosophical questions behind what is going on you will find that not everyone in this world believes that science exhausts all that we can know in the world.

I'd say I'm no illusion that science explains everything, for a dirt simple example I'm well aware of the deficiencies in physics concerning general relativity and QM. In short, yes there is a difference between the philosophical and empirical implications of scientific study. Cerpin Text summed up the point nicely.
Science is not philosophically naturalistic. It is metholodlogically naturalistic.

with that said, why is it automatically assumed ,for some, that to accept the results of scientific study is to also accept a naturalistic or anti-god worldview?

Thinking about it, I could see why this would cause insecurity. What used to be explained by God, something you held to be unknowable and a tantamount to the majesty of god's wonder, is now explained away by a bunch of nerds in lab coats. That is -- even if the facts are smack dab in front of your face... it boils down to a choice between a heavenly explanation and man's explanation. If you've grown up believing a literal interpretation of the bible, that the world is run by the devil and he's out to get you... then sure, even though the facts speak for themselves, scientists are out to get your God.

Iono, my problem with that is you can see science working with your own two eyes so accepting the results is a no-brainer conclusion for me. Making the jump to making that your worldview is another jump that is debatable and does dabble into the realm of philosophy, there is no way to scientifically test the idea of heaven, hell or as of right now the first cause, if there is one.
 

szechuanpork

Senior member
Aug 24, 2003
455
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76
some Christians see it as futile to attempt to one up the scientific community to change their beliefs about the origin of new species and common descent. though i disagree that those Christian and non-Christian scientists are merely "making up facts", they will never be seriously considered because of the current paradigm in science, which is eliminative of things like agency as an explanation of events.

i believe the Cambrian explosion is something that doesn't fit in well with evolutionary theory. all of a sudden a long time ago a bunch of organisms which did not look like each other or like any preceding organisms came into existence. it is possible that God could have created those organisms. you can say that it is because i am "religious" and i am pitifully ignorant of real science, that is your right. but, who is to say whether or not i can use divine agency as an explanation for the Cambrian explosion, without it being question-begging?

to take it a step further, if some event happened and it could not be best explained by a natural cause, then it is certainly possible that it was caused by a supernatural agent or event. it could be a miracle.

can a scientist believe in miracles? can he use God as a possible explanation for certain events that has no natural explanation? sure, why not? after all i believe that mind created matter, matter did not create mind.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,783
6,340
126
some Christians see it as futile to attempt to one up the scientific community to change their beliefs about the origin of new species and common descent. though i disagree that those Christian and non-Christian scientists are merely "making up facts", they will never be seriously considered because of the current paradigm in science, which is eliminative of things like agency as an explanation of events.

i believe the Cambrian explosion is something that doesn't fit in well with evolutionary theory. all of a sudden a long time ago a bunch of organisms which did not look like each other or like any preceding organisms came into existence. it is possible that God could have created those organisms. you can say that it is because i am "religious" and i am pitifully ignorant of real science, that is your right. but, who is to say whether or not i can use divine agency as an explanation for the Cambrian explosion, without it being question-begging?

to take it a step further, if some event happened and it could not be best explained by a natural cause, then it is certainly possible that it was caused by a supernatural agent or event. it could be a miracle.

can a scientist believe in miracles? can he use God as a possible explanation for certain events that has no natural explanation? sure, why not? after all i believe that mind created matter, matter did not create mind.

Provide Evidence of Design, then we'll talk.
 

szechuanpork

Senior member
Aug 24, 2003
455
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so long as we play by your rules which prohibit God from entering into the discussion.

(1) any evidence which leads to the conclusion that God may exist is discredited
(2) evidence X leads to the conclusion that God may exist

therefore, evidence X is discredited

how about substituting (1) with:

(1*) any evidence which leads to the conclusion that God may exist may or may not be credible

this seems a bit fairer to the whole search for truth, which is i hope what we are all trying to achieve.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,352
1,861
126
so long as we play by your rules which prohibit God from entering into the discussion.

(1) any evidence which leads to the conclusion that God may exist is discredited
(2) evidence X leads to the conclusion that God may exist

therefore, evidence X is discredited

how about substituting (1) with:

(1*) any evidence which leads to the conclusion that God may exist may or may not be credible

this seems a bit fairer to the whole search for truth, which is i hope what we are all trying to achieve.

I would say that any "evidence" that has been discredited which could in theory lead to the conclusion that one or more gods may exist is pretty much always discredited because it is false, based on false assumptions, unrepeatable, or simply not empirical.

That said, religion isn't about proof or evidence, it's much more philosophical in nature, and should adapt it's views towards learned human knowledge. It makes no sense for creationists to keep bashing evolutionary facts and theory. Humankind should continue to progress in knowledge, and religion should adapt to it. While I am not a religious person myself, religion has been both a great good and a great evil for mankind, and it is part of our heritage. My opinion on the matter, is that what you call "god" is "the universe." The universe is all knowing (since the sum of all knowledge takes place within the universe), infallible (whatever happens, happens), and greater than the comprehension of mankind (even something simple like trying to visualize the number of galaxies in the universe is mind baffling, and to think there is SO much more!)
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
so long as we play by your rules which prohibit God from entering into the discussion.

(1) any evidence which leads to the conclusion that God may exist is discredited
(2) evidence X leads to the conclusion that God may exist

therefore, evidence X is discredited

how about substituting (1) with:

(1*) any evidence which leads to the conclusion that God may exist may or may not be credible

this seems a bit fairer to the whole search for truth, which is i hope what we are all trying to achieve.

Until you can provide a reliable methodology for predicting the behavior of God and an explanation for his alleged capabilities, no. All you're doing is this:

MiracleCartoon.jpg
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,856
31,346
146
Thanks for this information, LordMorpheus. I had no idea a Catholic Priest, Lemaitre, proposed the Big Bang theory.

The priests and monks of the Catholic Church have made many positive contributions over the past 2,000 years.

God bless them.

Yes, what darling little pedophiles they are.

:heart:


by the way, it should be noted that when the Pope deigned to adopt the Big Bang theory as "proof of God," Lemaitre roundly criticized this interpretation. As with the IDers, confusing testable phenomena with faith is a big no-no.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
31,001
2,681
126
Yes, what darling little pedophiles they are.

:heart:

There are more atheist pedophiles than the handful of bad priests. There are more atheist murderers than the handful of bad priests. Etc, etc, etc. Your point? You have none. You are simply a basher of the Church.

You bashers can take nothing away from the positive contributions of the Church over two millenia.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,783
6,340
126
There are more atheist pedophiles than the handful of bad priests. There are more atheist murderers than the handful of bad priests. Etc, etc, etc. Your point? You have none. You are simply a basher of the Church.

You bashers can take nothing away from the positive contributions of the Church over two millenia.

Really? :\
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
There are more atheist pedophiles than the handful of bad priests. There are more atheist murderers than the handful of bad priests. Etc, etc, etc. Your point? You have none. You are simply a basher of the Church.

You bashers can take nothing away from the positive contributions of the Church over two millenia.

Where I come from, I credit the basic notion of religion as being a necessary coping tool for less developed humans.

Religion, more importantly Faith itself, is a tool that helps keep some people driving forward, looking for a way to make their mark.

All ancient civilizations had their own customs and beliefs wrapped around Faith to a certain degree. It's always been a tool by both the individual and the social collective to keep people where the collective views people should be at.

That, in as short as I can type it, is how I see Faith.
I find it hard to argue whether Faith is better with a monotheist belief or polytheist. Humans are far more dynamic, life far more cruel, than a world dominated by a faith in a singular entity would state.

For those who are largely self-sufficient, self-actualized people if you will, faith becomes simply that, a tool.

Religion helped get civilizations spread out and large, and efficient in their ways, but it was always a tool of the few for the masses. It evolved as the people slowly started figuring this out, and yet in this day and age, people are arguing for religion in a way that suggests to tread backward, to the beliefs prior to the Enlightenment era.

I argue that mankind will likely never know a reality that is devoid of all faith, but I hope that mankind can find it in themselves to ignore religious contexts that are rather damning of their own species, and empower the species by simply "believing" and leave it at that.
To believe in an all-powerful being, but with no religious notions attached to said belief, would be a significant step forward for our civilization.

At this point, each religion views the other religions as wrong and the followers often seek to damn the follows of other religions. What is so morally just about that? Intolerance is what led to some of the darkest hours of religion and government.
Why not strip mankind of all these silly books preaching different truths, and instead give to the species a freedom to simply believe in a deity or not? No prophets, no fallen angels, no manipulation of our species.
To accept our history as simply human, all our evils and our good deeds solely the work of man, would be rather empowering.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
31,001
2,681
126
Where I come from, I credit the basic notion of religion as being a necessary coping tool for less developed humans.

Religion, more importantly Faith itself, is a tool that helps keep some people driving forward, looking for a way to make their mark.

All ancient civilizations had their own customs and beliefs wrapped around Faith to a certain degree. It's always been a tool by both the individual and the social collective to keep people where the collective views people should be at.

That, in as short as I can type it, is how I see Faith.
I find it hard to argue whether Faith is better with a monotheist belief or polytheist. Humans are far more dynamic, life far more cruel, than a world dominated by a faith in a singular entity would state.

For those who are largely self-sufficient, self-actualized people if you will, faith becomes simply that, a tool.

Religion helped get civilizations spread out and large, and efficient in their ways, but it was always a tool of the few for the masses. It evolved as the people slowly started figuring this out, and yet in this day and age, people are arguing for religion in a way that suggests to tread backward, to the beliefs prior to the Enlightenment era.

I argue that mankind will likely never know a reality that is devoid of all faith, but I hope that mankind can find it in themselves to ignore religious contexts that are rather damning of their own species, and empower the species by simply "believing" and leave it at that.
To believe in an all-powerful being, but with no religious notions attached to said belief, would be a significant step forward for our civilization.

At this point, each religion views the other religions as wrong and the followers often seek to damn the follows of other religions. What is so morally just about that? Intolerance is what led to some of the darkest hours of religion and government.
Why not strip mankind of all these silly books preaching different truths, and instead give to the species a freedom to simply believe in a deity or not? No prophets, no fallen angels, no manipulation of our species.
To accept our history as simply human, all our evils and our good deeds solely the work of man, would be rather empowering.

Religion is not a coping tool for "less developed humans". That is your perspective, and I disagree with it. But because I go to church on occassion, try to follow its teachings, base some of my decisions on its moral implications and realize God is watching doesnt mean you are any more or less of a person than I am. I dont look down upon you or anyone else. It is sad you wont be going to heaven, but thats your choice, not mine.

I am glad that so many have sacrificed their selfish persuits of acquiring personal wealth, having sex and being obediant to Gods will. Others gave their lives when they were murdered by those trying to stop the spread of Gospel. I do not want to be around when all that hard work vanishes.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Religion is not a coping tool for "less developed humans". That is your perspective, and I disagree with it. But because I go to church on occassion, try to follow its teachings, base some of my decisions on its moral implications and realize God is watching doesnt mean you are any more or less of a person than I am. I dont look down upon you or anyone else. It is sad you wont be going to heaven, but thats your choice, not mine.

I am glad that so many have sacrificed their selfish persuits of acquiring personal wealth, having sex and being obediant to Gods will. Others gave their lives when they were murdered by those trying to stop the spread of Gospel. I do not want to be around when all that hard work vanishes.

You side stepped my main points of distaste for current religion.

What makes the religion you follow so Right, and the other ones so Wrong? In your view, do the people that adhere to other religions, following the words of other prophets, find themselves on the path to Hell? And only in choosing the words of your prophet will they find salvation?

The evils that seep out of religion frighten the fuck out of me.

But more importantly, I'm tired of people attributing all that is to the work of something that is not human. If our species want to survive for a long time, spreading our seed and influence past the confines of this Earth, we must accept humanity.
I long for the day when mankind can accept that we are capable of so much more than we have right now, but to do that, we first must accept that we are not nearly as far removed from the animal kingdom as religious teachings would have us believe. We aren't special.

edit:
and you're right - I won't be going to heaven. I won't be going anywhere. Logical scientific conclusions dictate that when I die, the neurons in my brain stop firing, and all that I consciously am ceases to be. The only thing special about our species is the knowledge of "I see, therefor I am". I don't argue that those that believe in Heaven and Hell are less worthy of all that we have or anything.

But I find it sad that we as a species are still unwilling to accept the confusion of life: just because there is life, does not mean there is a purpose. And just because there might not be a purpose, doesn't mean such a realization must change our behavior.

I don't accept the notion of otherworldly realms after our exit from this one, but that doesn't change my behavior here in any way.
Our species craves progress, and needs direction. I don't go through life with the image of heathenish behavior. On the contrary, I go through life with the goal of making my mark in such a way as to improve the future for our species. Good and evil, like nearly everything else in mankind's history, is too simplistic of a divide. It's due to our very roots, our tribal nature. It's in our psychology on a daily basis - with us, or against us. In group, or the out group. You are right, or you are wrong. It's such a pervasive concept, it's damaging and sickening. Religion demands we only further adhere to our tribal nature, when it is our tribal nature that will forever hold back the potential of man.

Surely, even the most devout follows of religion should recognize that calling: to prove that we are a worthy species that deserves far more than we have, we shall do so on our own accord - we shall declare that we will lead ourselves to a better life, to improve upon our species, to help promise future generations a life devoid of all our failings.
Is that so wrong? You can state that as a declaration to a deity if you wish, vowing that we will prove ourselves in his name. Or, like I will - vow to our ancestors that we will right the wrongs of our past ways, and put us on the path to salvation at our own hands. Because that is what it means to be human - for we are problem solvers, and we ourselves are one major pain in the ass of a problem, we so must fix ourselves. We are broken and feeble, for we think we are special when we are nothing more than animals with handy tools.
 
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SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
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Things naturally go into a state of less order and decay, not increased order. The idea of blowing up something big and somehow making galaxies is retarded. The idea that stuff has gotten more complex by itself is retarded. Totally goes against the laws of thermodynamics.

But never mind all that. It doesn't fit what you guys want to believe, so you'll find some way to ignore it or attempt to discredit it :p
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,783
6,340
126
Things naturally go into a state of less order and decay, not increased order. The idea of blowing up something big and somehow making galaxies is retarded. The idea that stuff has gotten more complex by itself is retarded. Totally goes against the laws of thermodynamics.

But never mind all that. It doesn't fit what you guys want to believe, so you'll find some way to ignore it or attempt to discredit it :p

Incorrect. You have missed one detail and that has made you come to the Opposite conclusion of what is the Truth.
 

Sumguy

Golden Member
Jun 2, 2007
1,409
0
0
Oh hey an argument about religion on ATOT.

I've never seen this before. I'm sure we will all benefit from this discussion and gain a better understanding of each other.
 

totalnoob

Golden Member
Jul 17, 2009
1,389
1
81
Things naturally go into a state of less order and decay, not increased order. The idea of blowing up something big and somehow making galaxies is retarded. The idea that stuff has gotten more complex by itself is retarded. Totally goes against the laws of thermodynamics.

Physics fail.
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,636
2
81
There are more atheist pedophiles than the handful of bad priests. There are more atheist murderers than the handful of bad priests. Etc, etc, etc. Your point? You have none. You are simply a basher of the Church.

You bashers can take nothing away from the positive contributions of the Church over two millenia.

Yet the positive contributions of the church have taken so much away from science :(

(sarcasm marked for the thick...)
 
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Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Things naturally go into a state of less order and decay, not increased order. The idea of blowing up something big and somehow making galaxies is retarded. The idea that stuff has gotten more complex by itself is retarded. Totally goes against the laws of thermodynamics.
Oy....not the thermodynamics crap again.

Ok, fine, we'll do this once more.
Earth: Things increase in order here, at least in some respects. (The core of the planet continues to cool of course, losing energy in the process. But let's look elsewhere, towards the crust.)
Life arose here from nonlife, and then increased in size and so on, which is arguably an increase in complexity. How? IF Earth were a closed system, that'd be somewhat unlikely....well, ok, even then it wouldn't be. You'd still have energy available, in the form of chemical energy. Provide enough nutrients (chemical energy) to a life form, and it might be able to grow and reproduce itself, at least up to the point where the energy source is exhausted. In that respect, you get a localized increase in complexity at the expense of another location.
But back to Earth in general. Closed system, right? Wrong.
Here's how to violate Christian/I.D. Thermodynamics in one word: Sunlight.

Earth receives an immense amount of energy, thus complexity is free to increase. That of course comes at the expense of an increase in entropy, which was defined for me as "a measure of the amount of useless energy in a system", in the Sun. It constantly converts energetic nuclear fuels into energy, which it radiates out in all directions. As the atoms become larger and larger, they yield ever-decreasing amounts of energy during fusion.
And so, our localized increases in complexity come at the expense of increasing entropy in another system.

Expand that out to the Universe. Boom, splat, squirt - whatever the Universe did initially to spew out space, time, and energy - made available a great deal of potential energy, and it was all over the place. A lot of it condensed out into hydrogen, which does still have a lot of potential energy, now bound up into a portable package. However, you were also left with a great deal of empty, non-complex space. Once again, you got localized complexity (atoms) at the expense of another location, which would have been previously occupied by some form of energy.

Simple thermodynamics. :D


But never mind all that. It doesn't fit what you guys want to believe, so you'll find some way to ignore it or attempt to discredit it :p
Or we can discredit it because it's....you know.....wrong, and is a distortion of thermodynamics, only as a consequence of ignorance of how the damn rules work.



I dont look down upon you or anyone else. It is sad you wont be going to heaven, but thats your choice, not mine.
Delicious lulz.



Provide Evidence of Design, then we'll talk.
And please, do so without citing any holy texts. From what I hear, God/deity/whatever is soooo obvious, that it shouldn't need any of our ancient tales to prove its existence.
Also, as is mentioned numerous times, using the Bible to try to prove God's existence because the Bible says he exists - that is circular logic, and in the real world, circular logic doesn't prove anything of value. Simple as that.
 
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