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Why Roe v. Wade should never be overturned...Macomb teens end pregnancy with beating

conjur

No Lifer
See what happens when abortion is criticized by the holier-than-thou to scare the crap out of young and fearful teenagers?

Boyfriend hits girl with bat as part of a deal and boy's mom helps bury fetus, police say.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0411/17/A01-7649.htm
RICHMOND TOWNSHIP -- Investigators said a pregnant 16-year-old girl allowed her boyfriend to beat her with a miniature baseball bat to cause a miscarriage, which may lead to criminal charges against the teens and one of their parents.

The girl estimated she was four months pregnant, said Macomb County Prosecutor-elect Eric Smith. Police said the boy's mother helped transport the fetus to her home and bury it in the backyard.

Smith said the beatings were "done over a period of three weeks. It was done in an effort to terminate the pregnancy."

Neither teenager is in custody as Michigan State Police await the results of an autopsy, scheduled for today. The boy's mother could face charges of improperly disposing of a body, Smith said.

"The charges are going to depend entirely on the results of the autopsy," Smith said.

A 1999 Michigan law provides felony penalties for actions that intentionally, or in wanton or willful disregard for consequences, cause a "miscarriage or stillbirth," or cause "aggravated physical injury to an embryo or fetus." Smith said his staff is researching whether the teens could face manslaughter charges.

"This is not a black and white area of the law. It is a gray area," added Smith. "It is shocking the lengths these two teens went to terminate the pregnancy."

Under Michigan law, people under 18 need one parent's permission to obtain a legal abortion.

A minor also can receive one with a judge's permission to bypass that requirement.

The girl apparently delivered the fetus in early October and investigators learned about the incident Monday through an anonymous tip, said Michigan State Police Sgt. Gary Nesbitt. The girl appeared physically recovered from the incident, police said.

"We don't know if the fetus was live or stillborn and we don't know the cause of death," Nesbitt said. "It's too early to speculate."

Investigators said the girl gave birth to the fetus at her own home and the couple contacted the boy's mother who helped them bury the remains.

"Neither family knew about the pregnancy before it was terminated," Smith said.

State Police withheld the names of the teens, who attend Armada High School.

Investigators said they recovered the remains in the backyard of the boy's Richmond Township home Monday evening.

"They are a very nice family," neighbor Audrene Hudechek said. "They are two good kids. They were just really scared."

The young couple has dated for about seven months, said Lillian Brincefield, 19, of Armada, who knows both of them.

"They didn't know how to deal with being pregnant," Brincefield said.

Brincefield said the couple told her the boy hit the girl only once and that she miscarried later that day after being hit playing after-school sports.

While 87 percent of Michigan counties have no legal abortion providers, Macomb County does, said Rebekah Warren, executive director of MARAL Pro-Choice Michigan, a statewide abortion rights advocacy group.

A first-trimester abortion without complications costs about $300, Warren said.

Warren said she hears anecdotal evidence of forced miscarriages but those come mostly from states that require both parents approval for an abortion.

"If 16-year-olds feel that this is there only option, than we have really missed the boat on educating them about sexual health," Warren said
.
 
It's just chilling the amount of these type of people there are here in MI, knuckle draggers. Here is a couple that had legal abortion available, but instead the girl has herself beat into miscarriage by her 'boyfriend' and then they contact the boy's mother to help bury the fetus. Now everyone knows that not only was the girl/couple pregnant but also has the ability to terminate her own pregnancy via brute force.

I guess that's simpler and more direct than just communicating the information verbally.

If this were to happen with my own daughter in a few years, I would not blame the current abortion laws, I would just be amazed that such a dim bulb came from our family.
 
Originally posted by: Yo_Ma-Ma
If this were to happen with my own daughter in a few years, I would not blame the current abortion laws, I would just be amazed that such a dim bulb came from our family.
:thumbsup:

What is the underlying reason for this event? Sounds like a failure of the sex education system in general. Tell them that they won't get pregnant if they use condoms, then put them in jail if they do and they don't like it.

Since I know I'll get flamed for this, I'll reiterate my position beforehand. If you want to teach 'safe sex', teach it truthfully, with real statistics and actual literature. If you blow smoke up kids' arses, then you're liable if something like this happens. If you give them the truth and it happens, then you're in the clear.
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Since I know I'll get flamed for this, I'll reiterate my position beforehand. If you want to teach 'safe sex', teach it truthfully, with real statistics and actual literature.

don't they? ever sex ed class I ever took made it pretty clear that condoms weren't 100% effective.
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
What is the underlying reason for this event? Sounds like a failure of the sex education system in general. Tell them that they won't get pregnant if they use condoms, then put them in jail if they do and they don't like it.

Since I know I'll get flamed for this, I'll reiterate my position beforehand. If you want to teach 'safe sex', teach it truthfully, with real statistics and actual literature. If you blow smoke up kids' arses, then you're liable if something like this happens. If you give them the truth and it happens, then you're in the clear.
I agree. But I'll add in that demonizing abortion is another thing that should not be done. Scaring these kids is benefiting no one.
 
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Since I know I'll get flamed for this, I'll reiterate my position beforehand. If you want to teach 'safe sex', teach it truthfully, with real statistics and actual literature.
don't they? ever sex ed class I ever took made it pretty clear that condoms weren't 100% effective.
Remember, the Bush administration has moved to cut federal funding from sex education programs that do not teach abstinence-only.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Since I know I'll get flamed for this, I'll reiterate my position beforehand. If you want to teach 'safe sex', teach it truthfully, with real statistics and actual literature.
don't they? ever sex ed class I ever took made it pretty clear that condoms weren't 100% effective.
Remember, the Bush administration has moved to cut federal funding from sex education programs that do not teach abstinence-only.

Ever heard of a case where abstinence didn't work to prevent a pregnancy?
Two unarguable facts:

1. Abstinence works 100% of the time it's practiced... Period!
2. Abortion = Murder 1... Period! I dont' care how the courts and the media try to gloss it, its Murder 1 when it's used as post-hoc birth control.
Exceptions: Rape, Incest, Imminent danger to the mother's life.
 
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Since I know I'll get flamed for this, I'll reiterate my position beforehand. If you want to teach 'safe sex', teach it truthfully, with real statistics and actual literature.
don't they? ever sex ed class I ever took made it pretty clear that condoms weren't 100% effective.
Remember, the Bush administration has moved to cut federal funding from sex education programs that do not teach abstinence-only.
Ever heard of a case where abstinence didn't work to prevent a pregnancy?
Two unarguable facts:

1. Abstinence works 100% of the time it's practiced... Period!
2. Abortion = Murder 1... Period! I dont' care how the courts and the media try to gloss it, its Murder 1 when it's used as post-hoc birth control.
Exceptions: Rape, Incest, Imminent danger to the mother's life.
Facts??

I'll give you #1 but #2 is just Jesus-Freak talk. Settle down, Beavis.


Besides, abstinence-only sex education isn't going to work. Teenagers have been teenagers for generations and they aren't going to stop having sex because you say so.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Since I know I'll get flamed for this, I'll reiterate my position beforehand. If you want to teach 'safe sex', teach it truthfully, with real statistics and actual literature.
don't they? ever sex ed class I ever took made it pretty clear that condoms weren't 100% effective.
Remember, the Bush administration has moved to cut federal funding from sex education programs that do not teach abstinence-only.
Ever heard of a case where abstinence didn't work to prevent a pregnancy?
Two unarguable facts:

1. Abstinence works 100% of the time it's practiced... Period!
2. Abortion = Murder 1... Period! I dont' care how the courts and the media try to gloss it, its Murder 1 when it's used as post-hoc birth control.
Exceptions: Rape, Incest, Imminent danger to the mother's life.
Facts??

I'll give you #1 but #2 is just Jesus-Freak talk. Settle down, Beavis.


Besides, abstinence-only sex education isn't going to work. Teenagers have been teenagers for generations and they aren't going to stop having sex because you say so.

You don't have to be a "Jesus-Freak" to believe that human life begins at conception. Get a clue!
 
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Since I know I'll get flamed for this, I'll reiterate my position beforehand. If you want to teach 'safe sex', teach it truthfully, with real statistics and actual literature.
don't they? ever sex ed class I ever took made it pretty clear that condoms weren't 100% effective.
Remember, the Bush administration has moved to cut federal funding from sex education programs that do not teach abstinence-only.
Ever heard of a case where abstinence didn't work to prevent a pregnancy?
Two unarguable facts:

1. Abstinence works 100% of the time it's practiced... Period!
2. Abortion = Murder 1... Period! I dont' care how the courts and the media try to gloss it, its Murder 1 when it's used as post-hoc birth control.
Exceptions: Rape, Incest, Imminent danger to the mother's life.
Facts??

I'll give you #1 but #2 is just Jesus-Freak talk. Settle down, Beavis.


Besides, abstinence-only sex education isn't going to work. Teenagers have been teenagers for generations and they aren't going to stop having sex because you say so.

You don't have to be a "Jesus-Freak" to believe that human life begins at conception. Get a clue!
Calling it Murder 1...Period!


:roll:
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Since I know I'll get flamed for this, I'll reiterate my position beforehand. If you want to teach 'safe sex', teach it truthfully, with real statistics and actual literature.
don't they? ever sex ed class I ever took made it pretty clear that condoms weren't 100% effective.
Remember, the Bush administration has moved to cut federal funding from sex education programs that do not teach abstinence-only.
Ever heard of a case where abstinence didn't work to prevent a pregnancy?
Two unarguable facts:

1. Abstinence works 100% of the time it's practiced... Period!
2. Abortion = Murder 1... Period! I dont' care how the courts and the media try to gloss it, its Murder 1 when it's used as post-hoc birth control.
Exceptions: Rape, Incest, Imminent danger to the mother's life.
Facts??

I'll give you #1 but #2 is just Jesus-Freak talk. Settle down, Beavis.


Besides, abstinence-only sex education isn't going to work. Teenagers have been teenagers for generations and they aren't going to stop having sex because you say so.

You don't have to be a "Jesus-Freak" to believe that human life begins at conception. Get a clue!
Calling it Murder 1...Period!


:roll:

Neither with calling it Murder 1...:disgust:
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Since I know I'll get flamed for this, I'll reiterate my position beforehand. If you want to teach 'safe sex', teach it truthfully, with real statistics and actual literature.
don't they? ever sex ed class I ever took made it pretty clear that condoms weren't 100% effective.
Remember, the Bush administration has moved to cut federal funding from sex education programs that do not teach abstinence-only.
Ever heard of a case where abstinence didn't work to prevent a pregnancy?
Two unarguable facts:

1. Abstinence works 100% of the time it's practiced... Period!
2. Abortion = Murder 1... Period! I dont' care how the courts and the media try to gloss it, its Murder 1 when it's used as post-hoc birth control.
Exceptions: Rape, Incest, Imminent danger to the mother's life.
Facts??

I'll give you #1 but #2 is just Jesus-Freak talk. Settle down, Beavis.


Besides, abstinence-only sex education isn't going to work. Teenagers have been teenagers for generations and they aren't going to stop having sex because you say so.

Well I wish you could refrain from your Jesus Freak slander as you so bluntly put it. No that it's relavent to this conversation, but I am Agnostic.

As for #2. A pregnancy or gestation of an egg resulting in an embryo is the beginning of human life. It is how you began right? Therefore it holds true that the abortion of said embryo, fetus, etc. directly results in the termination of human life, yes or no? And the willful termination of human life is... drumroll please.... Murder. Murder 1 is defined as Murder with motive and intent. Motive = Whatever your selfish reasons are to kill your child because you believe you will enjoy a better quality of life because of it. Intent = It takes a conscious effort to carry out an abortion doesn't it?

There you have it, Abortion = Murder 1, no Jesus, just good old logic and reason.

JR..
 
I don't see any compromises from either side on this issue. Abortion, I feel, will likely be a hot button issue for the rest of my lifetime I believe, until there are some breakthroughs in the medical field.

As for the abstienence only method, give it a break please. In the ideal world, yes it would work perfectly. In our world, teaching abstinence only without teaching kids how to properly use contraceptives is going to do more damage than good. What is the problem with teaching both at the same time as an effective method of sex education?
 
Mt BS is meter is hitting max on this story. The girl is afraid of telling her parents so she lets her boyfriend beat the living crap out of her until she miscarries? Uhm, yeah, right.

What this sounds like is a girl with an abusive, hothead boyfriend who regularly beat the crap out of her anyway. He got her pregnant and continued with his abusive behavior, eventually causing the girl to miscarry. Despite being abused, the girlfriend still wants to cover for 'her man' as is often the case in abusive situations. She calls his mother to ask how to keep her son out of being charged for murder of this fetus and momma, aiding and abetting her abusive son instead of getting him the help he needs, complies and becomes an accomplis herself.

Now THAT makes sense and not the BS that was printed.
 
Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
I don't see any compromises from either side on this issue. Abortion, I feel, will likely be a hot button issue for the rest of my lifetime I believe, until there are some breakthroughs in the medical field.

As for the abstienence only method, give it a break please. In the ideal world, yes it would work perfectly. In our world, teaching abstinence only without teaching kids how to properly use contraceptives is going to do more damage than good. What is the problem with teaching both at the same time as an effective method of sex education?

They need to be encouraging anal sex. Much, much safer.

 
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Since I know I'll get flamed for this, I'll reiterate my position beforehand. If you want to teach 'safe sex', teach it truthfully, with real statistics and actual literature.
don't they? ever sex ed class I ever took made it pretty clear that condoms weren't 100% effective.
Remember, the Bush administration has moved to cut federal funding from sex education programs that do not teach abstinence-only.
Ever heard of a case where abstinence didn't work to prevent a pregnancy?
Two unarguable facts:

1. Abstinence works 100% of the time it's practiced... Period!
2. Abortion = Murder 1... Period! I dont' care how the courts and the media try to gloss it, its Murder 1 when it's used as post-hoc birth control.
Exceptions: Rape, Incest, Imminent danger to the mother's life.
Facts??

I'll give you #1 but #2 is just Jesus-Freak talk. Settle down, Beavis.


Besides, abstinence-only sex education isn't going to work. Teenagers have been teenagers for generations and they aren't going to stop having sex because you say so.

Well I wish you could refrain from your Jesus Freak slander as you so bluntly put it. No that it's relavent to this conversation, but I am Agnostic.

As for #2. A pregnancy or gestation of an egg resulting in an embryo is the beginning of human life. It is how you began right? Therefore it holds true that the abortion of said embryo, fetus, etc. directly results in the termination of human life, yes or no? And the willful termination of human life is... drumroll please.... Murder. Murder 1 is defined as Murder with motive and intent. Motive = Whatever your selfish reasons are to kill your child because you believe you will enjoy a better quality of life because of it. Intent = It takes a conscious effort to carry out an abortion doesn't it?

There you have it, Abortion = Murder 1, no Jesus, just good old logic and reason.

JR..


If it's murder 1, how do the exceptions get in there? Incest should allow abortions? why? it's still murder fool. Rape should allow abortions? why? it's still murder. Clearly there is something wrong with your logic.

Take an example. Say a sperm fertilizes an egg, but for some reason there is a spontaneous abortion by the mother (meaning that something happened biologically so the egg couldn't implant itself in the uterus). Should we call this manslaughter? Why not?

Life does not begin at conception, life begins when the fetus is able to live on its own. Clearly, a fertilized egg cannot do that.
 
Originally posted by: totalcommand
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Since I know I'll get flamed for this, I'll reiterate my position beforehand. If you want to teach 'safe sex', teach it truthfully, with real statistics and actual literature.
don't they? ever sex ed class I ever took made it pretty clear that condoms weren't 100% effective.
Remember, the Bush administration has moved to cut federal funding from sex education programs that do not teach abstinence-only.
Ever heard of a case where abstinence didn't work to prevent a pregnancy?
Two unarguable facts:

1. Abstinence works 100% of the time it's practiced... Period!
2. Abortion = Murder 1... Period! I dont' care how the courts and the media try to gloss it, its Murder 1 when it's used as post-hoc birth control.
Exceptions: Rape, Incest, Imminent danger to the mother's life.
Facts??

I'll give you #1 but #2 is just Jesus-Freak talk. Settle down, Beavis.


Besides, abstinence-only sex education isn't going to work. Teenagers have been teenagers for generations and they aren't going to stop having sex because you say so.

Well I wish you could refrain from your Jesus Freak slander as you so bluntly put it. No that it's relavent to this conversation, but I am Agnostic.

As for #2. A pregnancy or gestation of an egg resulting in an embryo is the beginning of human life. It is how you began right? Therefore it holds true that the abortion of said embryo, fetus, etc. directly results in the termination of human life, yes or no? And the willful termination of human life is... drumroll please.... Murder. Murder 1 is defined as Murder with motive and intent. Motive = Whatever your selfish reasons are to kill your child because you believe you will enjoy a better quality of life because of it. Intent = It takes a conscious effort to carry out an abortion doesn't it?

There you have it, Abortion = Murder 1, no Jesus, just good old logic and reason.

JR..


If it's murder 1, how do the exceptions get in there? Incest should allow abortions? why? it's still murder fool. Rape should allow abortions? why? it's still murder. Clearly there is something wrong with your logic.

Take an example. Say a sperm fertilizes an egg, but for some reason there is a spontaneous abortion by the mother (meaning that something happened biologically so the egg couldn't implant itself in the uterus). Should we call this manslaughter? Why not?

Life does not begin at conception, life begins when the fetus is able to live on its own. Clearly, a fertilized egg cannot do that.

I'm allowing for some "spirit" of the law because nothing is absolutely black and white. For instance, some animal brutally rapes and kills your only daughter. You take justice into your own hands and murder the perp. Can you be charged with Murder? Yes, will a jury convict you for it? Maybe, personally I wouldn't. I feel that applies here to some degree as well. Daddy rapes his little girl and she gets pregnant. Sick as it seems it happens here in the real world. Should that woman have a choice? I say yes. Two teens get drunk at a party and it turns into consensual sex (even if its an altered state of consciousness because she chose to sip the suds). She gets pregnant, should she get a choice because she was irresponsible? No. My argument (and exceptions for that matter) hold water because they take into consideration one very important element... Accountability.

A woman gets a choice when she cannot be held accountable for the pregnancy.

You assertation that life begins when the fetus is able to live on its own is absurd. Mom and Dad don't have sex and then boom instant kid. There is a process that takes place to create that life. That process begins upon conception. Kill the process, kill the life. How many abortions were carried out last year in this country alone, how many Einsteins were slain, how many next presidents, how many future nobel peace prize winners, doctors, authors, how many? How many couples unable to conceive will never have the chance to raise a child? We'll never know will we? Because these people are haveing these abortions are selfish and are not held accountable for their actions.
 
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
... Two teens get drunk at a party and it turns into consensual sex (even if its an altered state of consciousness because she chose to sip the suds). She gets pregnant, should she get a choice because she was irresponsible? No. My argument (and exceptions for that matter) hold water because they take into consideration one very important element... Accountability.

A woman gets a choice when she cannot be held accountable for the pregnancy.

according to some sex with drunk girls constitute rape
theres a spirit of the law in everything
 
Originally posted by: illustri
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
... Two teens get drunk at a party and it turns into consensual sex (even if its an altered state of consciousness because she chose to sip the suds). She gets pregnant, should she get a choice because she was irresponsible? No. My argument (and exceptions for that matter) hold water because they take into consideration one very important element... Accountability.

A woman gets a choice when she cannot be held accountable for the pregnancy.

according to some sex with drunk girls constitute rape
theres a spirit of the law in everything

That argument doesn't wash in my book. Clearly it was a conscious decision to drink and thus end up in that situation. It still comes back to accountablility and acting responsibly.
 
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Originally posted by: illustri
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
... Two teens get drunk at a party and it turns into consensual sex (even if its an altered state of consciousness because she chose to sip the suds). She gets pregnant, should she get a choice because she was irresponsible? No. My argument (and exceptions for that matter) hold water because they take into consideration one very important element... Accountability.

A woman gets a choice when she cannot be held accountable for the pregnancy.

according to some sex with drunk girls constitute rape
theres a spirit of the law in everything

That argument doesn't wash in my book. Clearly it was a conscious decision to drink and thus end up in that situation. It still comes back to accountablility and acting responsibly.

I understand what you're saying, but be mindful of the rammifications of what you're saying, if your daughter and I go out for a beer (say just one) and some guy slips a barn dance style roofie or ghb in her drink is it still her fault? Slip down the slope further if she hangs out with (but not drink) with seedy dudes and gets raped, still hold her responsible?

Or on the other side, if it was complete consensual, whats to stop a women from claiming rape anyway?
 
Originally posted by: illustri
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Originally posted by: illustri
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
... Two teens get drunk at a party and it turns into consensual sex (even if its an altered state of consciousness because she chose to sip the suds). She gets pregnant, should she get a choice because she was irresponsible? No. My argument (and exceptions for that matter) hold water because they take into consideration one very important element... Accountability.

A woman gets a choice when she cannot be held accountable for the pregnancy.

according to some sex with drunk girls constitute rape
theres a spirit of the law in everything

That argument doesn't wash in my book. Clearly it was a conscious decision to drink and thus end up in that situation. It still comes back to accountablility and acting responsibly.

I understand what you're saying, but be mindful of the rammifications of what you're saying, if your daughter and I go out for a beer (say just one) and some guy slips a barn dance style roofie or ghb in her drink is it still her fault? Slip down the slope further if she hangs out with (but not drink) with seedy dudes and gets raped, still hold her responsible?
Or on the other side, if it was complete consensual, whats to stop a women from claiming rape anyway?

In the case of my daughter I hope that by the time she reaches that age I will have instilled in her enough good values and common sense to make the appropriate decisions and not wind up in those situations. That's an interesting hypothetical situation you present and where does accountablity lie? On one hand if my daughter is acting responsibly at the time some scumbag slips her a mickey, then obviously I can't hold her entirely accountable, at the same time she ultimately made the decicsions allowing herself to end up in that position. If a pregnancy were to result I don't beilieve under the circumstance you describe that an abortion is warranted and I'll stand by that 10 years from now simply because except in the most extreme circumstances, adoption is always an option and there is no end to the list of parents wishing to provide that child a loving home.
 
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer
Originally posted by: conjur
Facts??

I'll give you #1 but #2 is just Jesus-Freak talk. Settle down, Beavis.


Besides, abstinence-only sex education isn't going to work. Teenagers have been teenagers for generations and they aren't going to stop having sex because you say so.

Well I wish you could refrain from your Jesus Freak slander as you so bluntly put it. No that it's relavent to this conversation, but I am Agnostic.

As for #2. A pregnancy or gestation of an egg resulting in an embryo is the beginning of human life. It is how you began right? Therefore it holds true that the abortion of said embryo, fetus, etc. directly results in the termination of human life, yes or no? And the willful termination of human life is... drumroll please.... Murder. Murder 1 is defined as Murder with motive and intent. Motive = Whatever your selfish reasons are to kill your child because you believe you will enjoy a better quality of life because of it. Intent = It takes a conscious effort to carry out an abortion doesn't it?

There you have it, Abortion = Murder 1, no Jesus, just good old logic and reason.

JR..
I didn't intend to imply you were a Jesus-Freak. Just that that type of rhetoric is what they spew.

As for your comment: "Motive = Whatever your selfish reasons are to kill your child" It's not killing a child. The child isn't born yet. It's not a child by any legal means. It has no SSN, no name, no birth record, nothing.

Now, in my opinion, having an abortion for non-medical emergency means is a very selfish act. But, to call it pre-meditated murder is ridiculous.
 
Originally posted by: JoLLyRoGer

Ever heard of a case where abstinence didn't work to prevent a pregnancy?
Two unarguable facts:

1. Abstinence works 100% of the time it's practiced... Period!
2. Abortion = Murder 1... Period! I dont' care how the courts and the media try to gloss it, its Murder 1 when it's used as post-hoc birth control.
Exceptions: Rape, Incest, Imminent danger to the mother's life.

i believe i read it in the bible somewhere...
 
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