<< apathy is my religion >>
aka agnosticism
aka "I don't know if there is a God, I don't know if there isn't a God, and I could care less either way."
agnosticism is also known as gutless atheism
Nice try. You're not banned, but only because I'd rather watch you make a fool out of yourself than lock your account.
Anandtech Moderator
He is now.
Other AnandTech Moderator
Crispin Sartwell, who is becoming one of my favorite syndicated columnists, wrote this piece a few weeks ago in the LA times. It's great stuff.
---
The other day my wife attended a funeral of an acquaintance who had committed suicide. The minister who preached the funeral sermon recounted the story of a period of despair in her own life, when she had thought about killing herself. But God intervened, she said, and saved her.
I suppose the man she was burying wasn't good enough to be saved by God, or perhaps it just wasn't God's whim to stop him from blowing his brains out.
As the various interpreters of God's will appear and crash airliners into buildings, or on the contrary assert that God frowns on people crashing airlines into buildings, or that God will help our blessed nation in its quest for Osama, or that God will help Osama to escape, one might ask again an epochal question: huh?
Back when the Aztecs were immolating virgins atop pyramids so that God would bless the people, there was a little guy sitting at the bottom shaking his head and remarking to himself that folks will believe any damn thing.
As Homer sang of Zeus becoming a swan and mating with Leda, there was a dude in the back of the audience with a cocked eyebrow.
When, on the subcontinent, the elephant God of eight arms was being adored, there was a woman with her head in her hands wondering what the hell they'd think of next.
When the followers of Jesus reported that after his death he hung out for a meal or two, there was a sad, faithless cynic listening and going: say what?
And when Mohammed said that God was giving him dictation again and it turned out that he, Mohammed, was supposed to be in charge, there was Bedouin who retreated to his yurt before he started snickering.
We won't hear about these blasphemers, because it's the believers who ended up writing the histories. And actually, if you mumbled your skepticism a bit too loudly, those same believers would make sure your voice was lost to history by silencing you eternally.
Even today in a relatively secular society like ours, it's rare to hear someone point out in the clearest way that systems of religious belief are more or less baldly arbitrary and obviously ridiculous.
I guess maybe I'm just a long way from a religious point of view, but my question isn't which one is right, but how can anyone possibly believe any of them? It's as if you decided that Harry Potter were inerrant, or that the film version of the Lord Of the Rings were a documentary.
The operation of religious belief in history has of course been unbelievably complex: war and peace, oppression and liberation, love and pain. Trying to sort out where we'd be without it is bootless. So I'm not out here asserting that religion has been a disaster. But I am out here asserting that the stuff is just a wee bit cracked.
One of the most annoying arguments I've ever heard from believers is that actually, deep inside, everyone really does believe in God. And so: backatcha: no one really *can* believe it. Deep in your heart, you know it's false.
The great philosopher Soren Kierkegaard asserted that Christianity was the best religion because it was the craziest religion. "The eternal God has appeared in time and died": it's not that that's unlikely, as Kierkegaard pointed out. It simply cannot be true. It's an absolute paradox. So the only way you're going to believe it is to let go of your experience of the world and your rationality utterly and simply leap into the abyss.
I can respect that position, because it at least acknoweledges the basic bizarreness of the belief system. What I can't get ahold of is the idea that this stuff makes sense.
And maybe, just maybe, a dose of skepticism would be helpful to a world where the clash of belief systems is a continual killing.
The world just doesn't eyeball to me like the creation of an all-powerful and perfectly good being, who saves ministers from suicide and condemns family men to utter despair and self-destruction and their children to live through it.
If you believe that, more power to you. But why should you?
---
The other day my wife attended a funeral of an acquaintance who had committed suicide. The minister who preached the funeral sermon recounted the story of a period of despair in her own life, when she had thought about killing herself. But God intervened, she said, and saved her.
I suppose the man she was burying wasn't good enough to be saved by God, or perhaps it just wasn't God's whim to stop him from blowing his brains out.
As the various interpreters of God's will appear and crash airliners into buildings, or on the contrary assert that God frowns on people crashing airlines into buildings, or that God will help our blessed nation in its quest for Osama, or that God will help Osama to escape, one might ask again an epochal question: huh?
Back when the Aztecs were immolating virgins atop pyramids so that God would bless the people, there was a little guy sitting at the bottom shaking his head and remarking to himself that folks will believe any damn thing.
As Homer sang of Zeus becoming a swan and mating with Leda, there was a dude in the back of the audience with a cocked eyebrow.
When, on the subcontinent, the elephant God of eight arms was being adored, there was a woman with her head in her hands wondering what the hell they'd think of next.
When the followers of Jesus reported that after his death he hung out for a meal or two, there was a sad, faithless cynic listening and going: say what?
And when Mohammed said that God was giving him dictation again and it turned out that he, Mohammed, was supposed to be in charge, there was Bedouin who retreated to his yurt before he started snickering.
We won't hear about these blasphemers, because it's the believers who ended up writing the histories. And actually, if you mumbled your skepticism a bit too loudly, those same believers would make sure your voice was lost to history by silencing you eternally.
Even today in a relatively secular society like ours, it's rare to hear someone point out in the clearest way that systems of religious belief are more or less baldly arbitrary and obviously ridiculous.
I guess maybe I'm just a long way from a religious point of view, but my question isn't which one is right, but how can anyone possibly believe any of them? It's as if you decided that Harry Potter were inerrant, or that the film version of the Lord Of the Rings were a documentary.
The operation of religious belief in history has of course been unbelievably complex: war and peace, oppression and liberation, love and pain. Trying to sort out where we'd be without it is bootless. So I'm not out here asserting that religion has been a disaster. But I am out here asserting that the stuff is just a wee bit cracked.
One of the most annoying arguments I've ever heard from believers is that actually, deep inside, everyone really does believe in God. And so: backatcha: no one really *can* believe it. Deep in your heart, you know it's false.
The great philosopher Soren Kierkegaard asserted that Christianity was the best religion because it was the craziest religion. "The eternal God has appeared in time and died": it's not that that's unlikely, as Kierkegaard pointed out. It simply cannot be true. It's an absolute paradox. So the only way you're going to believe it is to let go of your experience of the world and your rationality utterly and simply leap into the abyss.
I can respect that position, because it at least acknoweledges the basic bizarreness of the belief system. What I can't get ahold of is the idea that this stuff makes sense.
And maybe, just maybe, a dose of skepticism would be helpful to a world where the clash of belief systems is a continual killing.
The world just doesn't eyeball to me like the creation of an all-powerful and perfectly good being, who saves ministers from suicide and condemns family men to utter despair and self-destruction and their children to live through it.
If you believe that, more power to you. But why should you?
voodooguy,
Here's a challenge: Post your philosophical beliefs so I can tear them apart. I guarantee I can find more holes and contradictions in your belief structure than in that of an "enlightened" Christian.
Here's a challenge: Post your philosophical beliefs so I can tear them apart. I guarantee I can find more holes and contradictions in your belief structure than in that of an "enlightened" Christian.
<< You say it like it's a bad thing. >>
Let's see...
You call anyone who believes in religion ignorant, stupid, etc. As if to imply that you've read thousands of books in arriving at your choice of religion.
Then you try to "educate" us on what religions are. Except you know about as much as religion as my left nut.
So here's the ignorant jacka$$ calling other people ignorant jacka$$es.
And you don't think this is a bad thing?
Keep talking, I'm feeling more brilliant with every word you belch forth.
<< An atheist tackles the significant questions of life on his own, without using religion as a crutch. >>
Actually, an atheist should have studied ALL religions thoroughly, and, having come to the conclusion that not a single one of them can possibly hold water the way logic and science can, chooses Atheism because he believes it is the only thing that makes sense. Your obvious lack of knowledge makes one point absolutely clear:
You follow atheism with the same blind faith that you attack in the religious.
<< Blah blah blah
Boys have penises and girls have vaginas! >>
Maybe the truest comment on this board
<< Actually, an atheist should have studied ALL religions thoroughly, and, having come to the conclusion that not a single one of them can possibly hold water the way logic and science can >>
It is enough for an atheist to understand how science works, to understand how religions in general work, and to decide that no religion in any form can correctly and reliably answer the important questions in life the way science has, does, and will.
voodooguy = Jerry Falwell of atheism/agnosticism. Makes an atheist wanna be Christian just so they're not associated w/ him
Pff.... He wanted to get a rise out of you and he did.... wow... its only more childish to lash back out at him, by calling him names etc.... Although I do mostly agree with what he says, he should say it in a respectful manner... we are all entitled to our beliefs, although it seems for many of us, we would do well to better examine the things we do believe....
as for the agnostic comments..
thats quite the trend isnt it? I doubt you have sincerly examined your beliefs either, as agnosticism only makes a claim about whether we CAN or CANNOT know anything about a god or gods, or if they do or do not exist.. If you are an agnostic
you must either be an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist... there is no true sitting on the fence... for if you say you cannot know, and that you suspend judgement, you still lack belief in a god and are therefore, by definition still an atheist... However if you choose you may say that you cannot know but still choose to believe...
Agnosticism is not the get out of jail free card that many people think it is, and the manner in which it has cuaght on as some kind of silly trend is intellectually offensive... Please, if you are going to call yourself something, understand what that something is, and understand logically the beliefs that follow from your stance.
as for the agnostic comments..
thats quite the trend isnt it? I doubt you have sincerly examined your beliefs either, as agnosticism only makes a claim about whether we CAN or CANNOT know anything about a god or gods, or if they do or do not exist.. If you are an agnostic
you must either be an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist... there is no true sitting on the fence... for if you say you cannot know, and that you suspend judgement, you still lack belief in a god and are therefore, by definition still an atheist... However if you choose you may say that you cannot know but still choose to believe...
Agnosticism is not the get out of jail free card that many people think it is, and the manner in which it has cuaght on as some kind of silly trend is intellectually offensive... Please, if you are going to call yourself something, understand what that something is, and understand logically the beliefs that follow from your stance.
<< ...to understand how religions in general work... >>
LMAO! Something tells me your take on that would be pretty humorous. Tell me, how exactly do religions in general work? Better yet, quit being a pu$$y and give me a chance to tear your views apart.
<< Lock for Voodooguy! >>
Come on, since when are the mods supposed to ban someone for stupidity?
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
Ok Mods, why don't you lock this? Or should we go into Blacks and Gays next? This has gone on long enough
(singing)
Trolling, trolling, trolling...
I know this is nothing but a troll post as voodooguy read and posted in the "Prove the Existance of God" thread, but fled when challenged.
Not that anyone "won" that thread, but we were having a good dicussion there and that seemed to frighten voodooguy off very fast.
voodooguy: You KNOW where that thread is, you posted in it. It is an intelligent discussion that addresses everything you posted here.
I have no problem with atheists that at least have some respect for those who disagree with them, but your arrogant attitude is just lousy.
Makes me wonder about 2 things:
1) Are you really an atheist? Becuase to TRY make the rest of the smart atheists/agnostics here look SO bad by association with you is just pissing off both sides.
2) You are looking for attention. (read: troll)
Also, for everyone else - he seems to have edited his own post above with a fake Mod edit, at least judging by the absence of an "Edited By Anandtech Moderator"... If so, its knowing he'll likely earn a vacation for trolling, he wants to make it look like a "religious" mod banned him for his views... even more pathetic, no?
Trolling, trolling, trolling...
I know this is nothing but a troll post as voodooguy read and posted in the "Prove the Existance of God" thread, but fled when challenged.
Not that anyone "won" that thread, but we were having a good dicussion there and that seemed to frighten voodooguy off very fast.
voodooguy: You KNOW where that thread is, you posted in it. It is an intelligent discussion that addresses everything you posted here.
I have no problem with atheists that at least have some respect for those who disagree with them, but your arrogant attitude is just lousy.
Makes me wonder about 2 things:
1) Are you really an atheist? Becuase to TRY make the rest of the smart atheists/agnostics here look SO bad by association with you is just pissing off both sides.
2) You are looking for attention. (read: troll)
Also, for everyone else - he seems to have edited his own post above with a fake Mod edit, at least judging by the absence of an "Edited By Anandtech Moderator"... If so, its knowing he'll likely earn a vacation for trolling, he wants to make it look like a "religious" mod banned him for his views... even more pathetic, no?
Bulk Beef
Diamond Member
- Aug 14, 2001
- 5,466
- 0
- 76
<< you must either be an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist... there is no true sitting on the fence... for if you say you cannot know, and that you suspend judgement, you still lack belief in a god and are therefore, by definition still an atheist... However if you choose you may say that you cannot know but still choose to believe... >>
That's kind of binary, don't you think?
glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
- 25,383
- 1,013
- 126
Congratulations, Voodooguy. You managed to get a week's vacation, and blow to hell the carefully and well-thought out and articulated POV's and arguments over the course of dozens of religion-topic threads, advanced by many smarter atheist/agnostic types than yourself, all in one thread. I'll be sure to file this thread away for the next time a thread arises about a well-intentioned but knucklehead thing a prominent fundamentalist theist type like Jerry Falwell says, that the non-theist crowd disagrees with and thinks worthy of scorn. People like you make such the perfect rebuttal material.
<< Tell me, how exactly do religions in general work? >>
A religion is a set of myths that are untestable, unprovable, and often plain wrong, given our current scientific knowledge.
In order to be a believer in that religion, one must suspend all skepticism and rational thought, and take as given the mythos of the religion. One must not try to bring science or rational thought to bear on the irrational aspects of the mythos, for he who does so will surely go to hell.
One must alter one's lifestyle as directed by the religion. No compromises are allowed, because religion is what it is, and otherwise one will surely go to hell.
This is how religions work.
I have yet to see anybody disprove the existance of god. Atheism is nothing more the a belief, like religon, more so they way some people preach it.
I have yet to see anyone disprove the existence of Magic Elves
I have yet to see anyone disprove the existence of Talking muhsroom people
I have yet to see anyone disprove the existence of 1,000,000 legged potbelly dog men
I have yet to see anyone disprove the existence of
INSERT ABOUT ANY SILLY THING HERE
Oh, and by definition atheism is an absence of belief, not a belief, it doesnt assume belief in any science etc... it is a negation A-THEISM as in NOT THEIST....
I have yet to see anyone disprove the existence of Magic Elves
I have yet to see anyone disprove the existence of Talking muhsroom people
I have yet to see anyone disprove the existence of 1,000,000 legged potbelly dog men
I have yet to see anyone disprove the existence of
INSERT ABOUT ANY SILLY THING HERE
Oh, and by definition atheism is an absence of belief, not a belief, it doesnt assume belief in any science etc... it is a negation A-THEISM as in NOT THEIST....
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