Why only 85fps

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: RyanVM
The main problem one gets with Vsync on is that framerates have to be in multiples of the refresh rate. We'll use 85hz as an example. Say your monitor can't display at 85fps. What then? It goes down to the next whole multiple, in other words, 42.5fps - two frames refreshing on the monitor for every frame in the game. If it can't keep up with that, down to 21fps. That's where choppiness can happen as I understand it - when your computer is forced to seriously drop framerate in order to sync up with monitor refreshes.

If anybody knows about this better than I do, feel free to correct me, but I'm pretty sure this is how things work.

I'm fairly certain you are correct.

like i said he is wrong, try looking into what i said if you want to be certain of something that is true.

Sorry - He's much closer to the truth than you are. Checkit

As for nailing the Megahealth jump on DM13 in Quake III - you can find certain lower framerates that will allow you to do the jump but it's just because you happened to hit a "sweet spot" in the physics engine. It takes your smooth parabolic flight path when you jump and basically cuts bevels into it. The more fps, the more bevels. As an extreme example if you get down to around 2 fps your flight path will resemble half an octagon. There are several 'framerates' that will allow you to pull off the jump but once you get over about 125fps your flight path is close enough to a smooth parabola that every framerate above it will work.

Bah! This is all making me itch for a game and I'm stuck here at work!

 

[CraigRT]

Originally posted by: Trashman
Go in display settings and disable or turn off Vertical Sync....I believe that'll solve your problem.

yeah first thing i ever changed when setting up a new PC to enable the 125fps trick in Q3..

 

[gtd2000]

Originally posted by: Mingon

besides in general people don't notice any difference much above 30fps

:frown: I would say anyone who becomes adjusted to more than 30fps will notice it very quickly. I am playing splinter cell at the moment and at an average of 38fps its not smooth at all.

Why do people compare apples and oranges?

People may not see a difference above 30 FPS in a 2D image - but they will certainly feel/see a difference in a rotating 3D environment.

Yes you are correct 38FPS is pretty awful for a 3D rotation - it would be excellent for watching a cartoon though

As for Mingons comment it is totally false in the situation of 3D gaming - hence the apples to oranges comparison

In summary for those who cannot get it into their heads

1. A human will very likely not "see" any difference watching a 2D image on a screen if the FPS is 30fps, 60fps or 150fps.

2. A human will definitely feel/observe a difference between 30 fps, 60fps and 150fps in a 3D Gaming environment where rotation is required.

I hope that is perfectly clear now

 

[Mingon]

As for Mingons comment it is totally false in the situation of 3D gaming

smooth - meaining = unconstrained in movement.

 

[gtd2000]

Originally posted by: Mingon

As for Mingons comment it is totally false in the situation of 3D gaming

smooth - meaining = unconstrained in movement.

Mingon,
I fear I misquoted you ... Your quote that I mentioned was from The SnowMan... oops!

 

[kylebisme]

and the simple fact is that most people do not notice a difference. gamers generaly do, but we are not the majorty of the population. heck i just saw this again with vice city were i see people sweer up and down that there is no reason to even want to turn the frame limiter off as it will not look any different anyway. why do they say that? becuase they can not see the difference; it seems you can, i can too, but we are not "most people".

 

[kylebisme]

oh and:

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: RyanVM
The main problem one gets with Vsync on is that framerates have to be in multiples of the refresh rate. We'll use 85hz as an example. Say your monitor can't display at 85fps. What then? It goes down to the next whole multiple, in other words, 42.5fps - two frames refreshing on the monitor for every frame in the game. If it can't keep up with that, down to 21fps. That's where choppiness can happen as I understand it - when your computer is forced to seriously drop framerate in order to sync up with monitor refreshes.

If anybody knows about this better than I do, feel free to correct me, but I'm pretty sure this is how things work.

I'm fairly certain you are correct.

like i said he is wrong, try looking into what i said if you want to be certain of something that is true.

Sorry - He's much closer to the truth than you are. Checkit

the hell he is regardless of what the link says. like i said:

acually that is just the way it works when you force v-sync with the ati's drivers and not quite then; after 42.5 you get 28.333fps which is 85/3. but if the game has a vsnyc option and you do not force it in the drivers it will not do that. ether way it does not really bother me though as 42.5 is really about where i want it anyway and if it drops to 28.333fps for anything more than a moment then i want to turn my settings down anyway.

and also, if you do not force vsync in ati's drivers but force it in game, in many games anyway, it does not suffer nearly such issues of "Say your monitor can't display at 85fps. What then? It goes down to the next whole multiple, in other words, 42.5fps". i fired up a game of rtcw and double checked and sure enough i saw many different fps readings with sync every frame on, maxing out at my refresh rate of course.

 

[Marvelous]

Here we go again.

 

[Mingon]

i just saw this again with vice city were

well I have been playing this on my shuttle box through my 32" widescreen tv and the difference between frame limiter on and off is like driving through jerky city on the way to smoothville

 

[Jeff7181]

I can tell you first hand that too many FPS can be just as bad as not enough FPS... CS is a perfect example of that... turn v-sync off... then set your max FPS to 85... nice and smooth huh? Now set it to 95. Kinda jerky, maybe even a little worse than 70 fps. Reason that happens is the same reason running a 333 Mhz bus Athlon XP with DDR400 will give lower performance than if the bus and RAM are in sync. You introduce latency into it... the video card is waiting for the monitor to be able to refresh, or the monitor is waiting for the video card to render the scene. It's not always even a constant jerkyness like a low fps... it usually happens rhythmically, if you run in a straight line you can see it pretty well... smooth, studder, smooth, studder...

Now, this isn't always a problem with every game because it's logical that if the video card is doing 170 fps, and the monitor is refreshing at 85 Hz, they'll be in sync, the video card will just be rendering the scene twice as often as it needs to... however with Counter-Strike, the game is limited to 99 fps no matter what refresh rate you use, so that becomes a problem.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Mingon

i just saw this again with vice city were

well I have been playing this on my shuttle box through my 32" widescreen tv and the difference between frame limiter on and off is like driving through jerky city on the way to smoothville

ohh ya i have been hitting it up on my 21" trinitron and i have to play in win98 compatablity mode so i can keep it off too, but agian you and me are not "most people".

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: Marvelous
Here we go again.

I hear ya.

Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and then beat you with experience.

Besides, it's more important to know the facts than to make sure everyone else does.

 

[kylebisme]

are you just going to be insulting or might you be so bold as to take the time to look into what i said and see that i am telling the truth. :disgust:

 

[Smilin]

I'm fairly certain I read and understood everything you said but I still disagree. If there was a particular paragraph you're referring to please requote it and I'll take another look. Perhaps I skipped too fast through something important.

 

[kylebisme]

- when useing force vsync in ati's drivers at 85hz it goes 85fps -> 42.5fps -> 28.333fps and only after that -> 21.25fps.
- when not forcing vsync in ati's drivers but using game level vsync the framerate is simply capped at the refreshrate but does not automaticly half if the videocard cannot achieve that, rather it simply runs at whatever framerate it can achieve and keeps the frames in sync.
-nvidias drivers always behave like in game vsnyc and not like ati's force vsync.
- every individual has their own threshold of how sensitive they are to framerate; most people do not see any difference in the fluidity of movement above ~30fps, although there are many people that do see the difference as well.


the first three are rather easy to prove though simply testing it personal. the latter requres an unbias sample of the population, which i how i came to my conclusion on that and i imagine you would find the same if you took the time to do so.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

So many misinformed people. Must leave thread now before infected with Stupid.

- M4H

 

[kylebisme]

sense you took the time to post you could have at least backed me up so there would be less missinformed people.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
So many misinformed people. Must leave thread now before infected with Stupid.

- M4H

Post count +1 ??? Thanks for the useful input.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
So many misinformed people. Must leave thread now before infected with Stupid.

- M4H

Post count +1 ???

Confirmed.

+2.



BTW, I can't really "back up" anything since the degrees of sensitivity to framerate are so varied. Some people, as stated, will swear that there's no point in going above motion-blur (~24fps). For others, life begins at 60. USAF pilots, on the other hand, can recognize aircraft and markings in images displayed for less than 1/200th of a second.

In otherwords, YMMV.

- M4H

 

[kylebisme]

well ymmv, ya that is basically what i said as well but with the addition of the fact that the advrage individual tends to require much less than people who spend quite a bit of time staring at videogames. also i feel it is important to point out that the pilots and 1/200 of a second thing is in reference to a single frame being flashed onto a screen while in a dark room and has about as much to do with sustained framerate as it does my hindquarter.

 

[Jeff7181]

I think your logic is flawed... with a CRT, I guarantee you'll notice the different between a refresh rate of 50 Hz, and 85... and because things don't run in sync all the time, there will be periods where you'll see the screen studder as things become more out of sync at different periods of time.
If you're talking about an LCD... then yes, anything above 30 is probably just good for bragging rights... or Air Force pilots.

 

[kylebisme]

it seems your reading comprehension is flawed as i never claimed anything about a 50hz refresh rate at all. though if you want to speak refresh rate, most people don't notice a difference over 60hz although others will swear it is torture, myself included. i litraly get muscle spasms in my eyelids when looking at 60hz for any length of time.

 

[rainypickles]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
though if you want to speak refresh rate, most people don't notice a difference over 60hz although others will swear it is torture, myself included. i litraly get muscle spasms in my eyelids when looking at 60hz for any length of time.

i hate 60hz. but i am curious as to why you think people dont notice a difference over 60hz. i mean, i could see that most people wouldnt know any better, but why do you say that people wouldnt notice? maybe they just accept the throbbing pain that accompanies computer usage and never say anything?

 

[kylebisme]

becuase i help my not so tech savy family and friends out with the computers a lot an the genrealy the first thing i have to do is turn up the refresh rate to which most of them tend claim that it seems pointless as to them it looks no different than the way it was.