Why one soccer mom wants Hussein taken out

[duke]

Originally posted by: grasshopper26

Originally posted by: Colt45

Using this theory, most of the world should be able to bomb the living sh1t out of the US.

Now you're just being silly...

But if you think they should try, by all means...

Just remember that we ARE the United States of America, and you might not like our response...

Grasshopper

Thank you for displaying the perfect reason why most of the world hates us...

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Draknor
Here's the thing that some people have touched on, but that Grashopper & a few others seem to be missing. Hussein is just a man. You kill him, someone else takes his place. That replacement may be better for us, or may be worse. I think historically our manipulation of other governments usually makes things at least more complicated, if not worse (but I'm not sure about that, so I won't continue to argue that point).

Germany & Japan - Lather, rinse, repeat...

The idea is not to kill Saddam, it is to remove the existing government and replace it with a true democracy. You do THAT and you'll be successful.

What I see as the problem with this situation is - we're not fighting a man, we're fighting an entire anti-USA attitude.

In Iraq, that is largely the result of the current government's propaganda...

Remove the government and half that problem is solved. The other half gets solved when we rebuild the country.

Here's another thing to think about - yes, according to western philosophy, we argueably have the best system going. But - surprise surprise - NOT everyone wants our kind of civilization!

Yes they do, that is why they keep trying to come here...

Everyone wants a better life for their children, so they travel here to find it...

How many homebuilt boats are sailing from Miami to Cuba?

Grasshopper

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: duke

Thank you for displaying the perfect reason why most of the world hates us...

There are perks with being the most powerful nation on Earth...

That is one of them...

For what it's worth, we got that way largely because we DO have the best system going...

Grasshopper

 

[Gaard]

What happens if the inspectors find nothing? Attack anyway?

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Gaard
What happens if the inspectors find nothing? Attack anyway?

Saddam will never give them that chance...

Here is the deal... We already know he has weapons of mass destruction, we just can't reveal the specific evidence because it comes from sources that would be revealed if we showed it...

Saddam is highly unlikely to reveal all his weapons and give them up, so your concern (while a valid one), isn't going to happen...

Come the 8th, Saddam will probably declare a few things, we'll call him on it, there will be a month or so of debates, then we'll attack in January...

Grasshopper

 

[fluxquantum]

oh puhh-lease

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: fluxquantum
oh puhh-lease

Yes?

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: grasshopper26

Originally posted by: Gaard
What happens if the inspectors find nothing? Attack anyway?

Saddam will never give them that chance...

Here is the deal... We already know he has weapons of mass destruction, we just can't reveal the specific evidence because it comes from sources that would be revealed if we showed it...

Saddam is highly unlikely to reveal all his weapons and give them up, so your concern (while a valid one), isn't going to happen...

Come the 8th, Saddam will probably declare a few things, we'll call him on it, there will be a month or so of debates, then we'll attack in January...

Grasshopper

Wow, dude. I really, really hope that if we end up going in we get more than "We have proof but we can't tell you what that proof is...you'll just have to trust us."

Please tell me there isn't a single person on this board who wouldn't rather have a peaceful, non-violent conclusion to this. I'll let you know, I think SH is a tyrant and that part of the world would be a better place if he weren't in any position of power, as I'm sure every person here does, but if Bush came out tomorrow and said there's been questions raised on the validity of the info claiming SH's possession of WMD I get the feeling some people here would be kind of sad.

IOW - If we can get out of this, pleasing both sides, without firing a shot, that would be a good thing, right? So shouldn't we be hoping for a peaceful conclusion?

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Wow, dude. I really, really hope that if we end up going in we get more than "We have proof but we can't tell you what that proof is...you'll just have to trust us."

Who do you trust more?

1. The Bush Adminstration
2. Saddam Hussein

Personally, I'm willing to give Bushy the beneift of the doubt on this one.

Please tell me there isn't a single person on this board who wouldn't rather have a peaceful, non-violent conclusion to this. I'll let you know, I think SH is a tyrant and that part of the world would be a better place if he weren't in any position of power, as I'm sure every person here does, but if Bush came out tomorrow and said there's been questions raised on the validity of the info claiming SH's possession of WMD I get the feeling some people here would be kind of sad.

IOW - If we can get out of this, pleasing both sides, without firing a shot, that would be a good thing, right? So shouldn't we be hoping for a peaceful conclusion?

Yea, I would love a peaceful outcome, but I'm a realist and it just ain't gonna happen. Wishful thinking has been a disaster way too many times in history.

Lepoards just can't change their spots, and Saddam isn't going to change his...

War is coming, you know it as well as I do. Do I like it? No, of course not... But sometimes good men must do bad things for the greater good of humanity.

This is one such time...

Grasshopper

 

[Draknor]

Originally posted by: grasshopper26

Originally posted by: Draknor
Here's the thing that some people have touched on, but that Grashopper & a few others seem to be missing. Hussein is just a man. You kill him, someone else takes his place. That replacement may be better for us, or may be worse. I think historically our manipulation of other governments usually makes things at least more complicated, if not worse (but I'm not sure about that, so I won't continue to argue that point).

Germany & Japan - Lather, rinse, repeat...

The idea is not to kill Saddam, it is to remove the existing government and replace it with a true democracy. You do THAT and you'll be successful.

Alrighty - Germany & Japan "worked". But we didn't just take out the government. That was after a world war and both countries were decimated. And Germany is already a "western" civilization. I just see there being too much of a difference between Germany/Japan and today's Middle East. Germany & Japan had one ruler/ruling faction, whereas today's Middle East seems much more fragmented and unstable. And IIRC, part of Bin Laden's rise to "power" was the US's efforts to mess with middle eastern governments in the 80's - and we see how well THAT has worked out.

What I see as the problem with this situation is - we're not fighting a man, we're fighting an entire anti-USA attitude.

In Iraq, that is largely the result of the current government's propaganda...

Remove the government and half that problem is solved. The other half gets solved when we rebuild the country.

Eh, this hate won't die overnight - part of the problem is religion is a big factor in this. America = West = Christian. Even if we can get democracy installed, that may stabilize politics, but there's still religion to fight & hate. And besides - what if someone gets elected that we don't like - we decide their elected official is "evil" - then what? Another US-induced coup? If that's the case, we might as well claim it as a US territory, since that's the only way we'll ever get the "good guys" in power.

Here's another thing to think about - yes, according to western philosophy, we argueably have the best system going. But - surprise surprise - NOT everyone wants our kind of civilization!

Yes they do, that is why they keep trying to come here...

Everyone wants a better life for their children, so they travel here to find it...

How many homebuilt boats are sailing from Miami to Cuba?

How many homebuilt boats are sailing from Iraq to Miami??

 

[Gaard]

grasshopper26 - <<Who do you trust more?

1. The Bush Adminstration
2. Saddam Hussein

Personally, I'm willing to give Bushy the beneift of the doubt on this one. >>

I, too, would trust Bush before SH. But, if my president commits our country to war...if we are to go ahead with this pre-emtive strike...if family and friends are risking coming home in bodybags...if we are going to commit billions upon billions to this effort, I'd expect more than Trust me.

 

[duke]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
I don't even know how to begin here.

Saddam is not nice to say the least. Granted. So what?

Now take your time and answer and be specific. Just how is Saddam a threat to the US. Not hearsay, not he violates UN sanctions. Be very clear. What<EM> evidence</EM> do you have?

He has means to support terrorist actions against the US. He has reason to support terrorist actions against the US.

Yeah because we bombed the sh1t out of him back in 1991...

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: tweakmm

Originally posted by: charrison How much longer do we allow iraq to thumb his nose at the cease fire agreement?

Not that this is acceptable, but what country doesn't thumb their nose to UN agreements? How is this any reason to attack a country?

So we should pull out of Saudi, kuwait and qater, like Al queda wants us too..and let Iraq have full run of the region again?

Al Queda does not really want us to pull out. They want a war and kick us out. It is not the same. Al Queda and the Fundamentalists are the real threat. Bin Laden WANTS war.

As to how long should we tolerate Saddams antics? Forever, or until he is shown to be a threat to the US.

Read Bin ladens last letter, he wants us completely out of the region and he wants us to convert to islam.

Bin laden and Saddam may not share ideals, but they have similar goals. They both want us out of there. You are greatly underestimating their reasons to work together.

Most of the world wants you "out of there", so I guess we're all in it together.

 

[hagbard]

Originally posted by: grasshopper26

Originally posted by: Draknor
Here's the thing that some people have touched on, but that Grashopper & a few others seem to be missing. Hussein is just a man. You kill him, someone else takes his place. That replacement may be better for us, or may be worse. I think historically our manipulation of other governments usually makes things at least more complicated, if not worse (but I'm not sure about that, so I won't continue to argue that point).

Germany & Japan - Lather, rinse, repeat...

The idea is not to kill Saddam, it is to remove the existing government and replace it with a true democracy. You do THAT and you'll be successful.

What I see as the problem with this situation is - we're not fighting a man, we're fighting an entire anti-USA attitude.

In Iraq, that is largely the result of the current government's propaganda...

Remove the government and half that problem is solved. The other half gets solved when we rebuild the country.

Here's another thing to think about - yes, according to western philosophy, we argueably have the best system going. But - surprise surprise - NOT everyone wants our kind of civilization!

Yes they do, that is why they keep trying to come here...

Everyone wants a better life for their children, so they travel here to find it...

How many homebuilt boats are sailing from Miami to Cuba?

Grasshopper

Grasshopper, fact is, most of the world ISN'T heading for the US. Proportionately, my country (Canada) takes in more immigrants every year. I think most want a better standard of living and tolerance for their beliefs.

Other countries don't appreciate foreign intervention from the US. Even in Canada, we've put up with that on a smaller scale from the US...such as the DEA setting up shop in major Canadian cities like Vancouver. What business to they have here? What right do they have to try in form Canadian drug policy (most Canadians want pot legal, it won't happen because the US would slap us with trade sanctions). What country hasn't felt the hand of "America's best interest"?

 

[Grasshopper27]

Anyone who thinks Canada is a better overall country than the United States has their head in the clouds. Absurdly high taxes, lousy public services, socialist government, lousy exchange rate, etc...

The reason you have more people coming in is because you have a very liberal immigration policy.

Grasshopper

 

[markuskidd]

OMG OMG OMG


Grasshopper on the US helping Saddam get weapons in the past:

We really need to stop helping out the bad guys just to get rid of the really bad guys. Doesn't always work and almost always backfires...

Grasshopper

Grasshopper on the US helping the Northern Alliance and terrorist groups in Sudan get weapons in the present:

Sudan isn't a country, it is a wasteland of warlords and terror groups... We're playing with the nicer ones to try and get rid of the meaner ones...

The Northern Alliance isn't a bunch of perfect people either, they are just better than the Taliban...

Grasshopper

JESUS CHRIST!

 

[Grasshopper27]

Yes, a bit odd, isn't it?

Truth be told, we really do have a consistancy problem, one that I don't have a good answer for...

Grasshopper

Originally posted by: markuskidd
OMG OMG OMG


Grasshopper on the US helping Saddam get weapons in the past:

We really need to stop helping out the bad guys just to get rid of the really bad guys. Doesn't always work and almost always backfires...

Grasshopper

Grasshopper on the US helping the Northern Alliance and terrorist groups in Sudan get weapons in the present:

Sudan isn't a country, it is a wasteland of warlords and terror groups... We're playing with the nicer ones to try and get rid of the meaner ones...

The Northern Alliance isn't a bunch of perfect people either, they are just better than the Taliban...

Grasshopper

JESUS CHRIST!

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: grasshopper26
Truth be told, we really do have a consistancy problem, one that I don't have a good answer for...

but let's bomb 'em anyway for sh!ts and giggles

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: tweakmm

but let's bomb 'em anyway for sh!ts and giggles

I see you've figured it out!

Grasshopper

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: grasshopper26

Originally posted by: tweakmm

but let's bomb 'em anyway for sh!ts and giggles

I see you've figured it out!

it took a while to get into that mind that wasn't quite in touch with reality of yours, but I guess I have finaly seen the light

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: grasshopper26
Yes, a bit odd, isn't it?

Truth be told, we really do have a consistancy problem, one that I don't have a good answer for...

Grasshopper

Excuse me?? WE??

Stop acting like you speak for the whole country. You don't. You're just some f*cking moron whose mouth is bigger than his brain.

Seriously, just STFU. You make the rest of us Americans look bad. :frown:

 

[markuskidd]

Truth be told, you have the consistancy problem. You complain that Saddam gives weapons to terrorist groups to indirectly get his way. When confronted about the US giving Saddam access to weapons to get our way, you say it is a bad thing not to be repeated. When confronted about the US currently providing weapons to two quasi-terrorist entities, it's OK to use the bad ones to get the worse ones. On top of all of this, you claim that the US has a moral perogative for removing Saddam from power.

You sir are a war-monger.

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: markuskidd
Truth be told, you have the consistancy problem. You complain that Saddam gives weapons to terrorist groups to indirectly get his way. When confronted about the US giving Saddam access to weapons to get our way, you say it is a bad thing not to be repeated. When confronted about the US currently providing weapons to two quasi-terrorist entities, it's OK to use the bad ones to get the worse ones. On top of all of this, you claim that the US has a moral perogative for removing Saddam from power.

You sir are a war-monger.

Who, little old me? Naa, I'm really not...

I'm a freedom-monger, I just want freedom for all the people of the world. Force is the quickest way to provide it for them.

Grasshopper

 

[JellyBaby]

I just want freedom for all the people of the world. Force is the quickest way to provide it for them.

Noble goal at face value. America went through quite an ordeal to earn its freedom. Earn being the operative word. Because of the struggle to achieve it, freedom actually means something to us. We will fight like no other to retain it.

If you simply install freedom in a nation will its people comprehend just how meaningful and sacred that freedom it is? I believe it takes a willingness to sacrafice everything for freedom in order for freedom to endure.

Imperfect analogy: If you give a child a toy he'll enjoy it. If you have that child do chores and consequently pay him an allowance, that that toy he buys on his own it will mean all that much more to him.

 

[Colt45]

Originally posted by: grasshopper26

I'm a freedom-monger, I just want freedom for all the people of the world. Force is the quickest way to provide it for them.

Grasshopper

You just don't get it.

If the entire world wanted american style "freedom", they would have it.
Some nations don't believe in your way of life, never will.

But I shouldn't even respond to this.. judging from the other stuff you've posted you aren't worth the effort..