Why NOT universal healthcare?

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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: rbloedow
Because it's inefficient (anything run by the government is inefficient), and your taxes will skyrocket to pay for it.  Quality and efficiency will both be flushed down the toilet.  The survey at the bottom of this page illistruates these ideas: <A href="http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/healthcare.htm">http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/healthcare.htm</A> (yeah, I know the website is questionable, but the survey from the Canadian Medical Association Journal is not). 

Never hear the right bitching ineffiient about agencies used to kill or imprison people. In Fact they never meet a prison/defence/CIA bill they did'nt like. Heaven forbid governement uses it buying power and laws to help people.

You think we should have a privatized police force? That is the whole point of our gov't! To protect the people. Yes, they are incredibly wasteful and inefficient, but who else would put up the money to do that? No one. That's why the gov't has to do it.

The only individuals who think universal healthcare is good are the ones that can't afford healthcare now. They support it because it means more freebies from the gov't. Well let me tell you, we shouldn't have to give up 30% of our income to our gov't. That just pushes more and more people into a lower social class unless you tax the rich more, in which case you are punishing the successful people and you are eliminating the upper class.
What we need is a MAJOR reform in the way medicine is practiced. We need malpractice lawsuit limits and insurance caps. We need stuff like that so that costs are lowered overall and ordinary people can afford healthcare on their own. But this won't happen because it will lower tax revenue and that is BAAAAD (according to the people on these boards).


I can't see much of your post..are these forums messed up?


But your right "That is the whole point of our gov't! To protect the people." health "coverage" = "protection" Moreover it's the governemnts duty to provide general welfare for it's citizens which should include some basic heath care. I wager it costs the system more to let people go w/o heatlh insurance then pop into the emergency room cronic or terminal than ongoing basic care. Dr. Bali eluded to this earlier. We are already paying for it with higher premiums.


 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I can agree with socialized healthcare for anyone age 15 and younger. Everyone else can work for it.

what if ones ability is such he/she can't afford it? More and more employers are nixing health. And over 50% of the population in this country make less than 30K per year. Modest Health plan range from 1200-1600 per month for a family.. See the math problem.

Bullsh!t! You've got to have pre-existing conditions with claims to pay that much a month.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Jmman
Let me see. When was the last time any of you guys went to the DMV? Yes, huge lines, inefficient service, long waits. Now picture this same scenario. Add to the mix that everyone there is sick. People throwing up in garbage cans. And yes, you are at the end of the line. No thanks, I don't want the government running the healthcare system......:roll:

Were is this? I've never seen a line at the DMV but waited over an hour many times in the doctors office.

Oh but never waited in the Socialist military Hospital at NAS in FL. Seems the governemnt can be a well oiled machine compared to private practice/

And you miss the point, some care is better than NO care. PLus all care would still be private, but the insurance company, a public insurance agency, would be responsible for all healthcare costs for people who need the help.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I can agree with socialized healthcare for anyone age 15 and younger. Everyone else can work for it.

what if ones ability is such he/she can't afford it? More and more employers are nixing health. And over 50% of the population in this country make less than 30K per year. Modest Health plan range from 1200-1600 per month for a family.. See the math problem.

Bullsh!t! You've got to have pre-existing conditions with claims to pay that much a month.


You should go into the business then..Find me some insurance for a family of 4 fore less and I'll belive you. My single brother 24 pays $900 mo no pre-existing, aliet a PPO. HOP, posted right here how it was impossible to find insurance less than $1200. Again instead of saying bullsh1t find me even an HMO plan with say ~250 deductale, 80/20 for 4 for $1200. This is about as modest as you can get.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I can agree with socialized healthcare for anyone age 15 and younger. Everyone else can work for it.

what if ones ability is such he/she can't afford it? More and more employers are nixing health. And over 50% of the population in this country make less than 30K per year. Modest Health plan range from 1200-1600 per month for a family.. See the math problem.

Bullsh!t! You've got to have pre-existing conditions with claims to pay that much a month.


You should go into the business then..Find me some insurance for a family of 4 fore less and I'll belive you. My single brother 24 pays $900 mo no pre-existing, aliet a PPO. HOP, posted right here how it was impossible to find insurance less than $1200. Again instead of saying bullsh1t find me even an HMO plan with say ~250 deductale, 80/20 for 4 for $1200. This is about as modest as you can get.

Are you talking about self-employed people? Anyone with insurance through work doesn't pay that much a month.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I can agree with socialized healthcare for anyone age 15 and younger. Everyone else can work for it.

what if ones ability is such he/she can't afford it? More and more employers are nixing health. And over 50% of the population in this country make less than 30K per year. Modest Health plan range from 1200-1600 per month for a family.. See the math problem.

Bullsh!t! You've got to have pre-existing conditions with claims to pay that much a month.


You should go into the business then..Find me some insurance for a family of 4 fore less and I'll belive you. My single brother 24 pays $900 mo no pre-existing, aliet a PPO. HOP, posted right here how it was impossible to find insurance less than $1200. Again instead of saying bullsh1t find me even an HMO plan with say ~250 deductale, 80/20 for 4 for $1200. This is about as modest as you can get.

Are you talking about self-employed people? Anyone with insurance through work doesn't pay that much a month.

Self-employed, independant contractors, day labor, seasonal labor, unemployed, or employers who don't subsidize or offer a plan to thier employees. Basically if your on your own. This the people we are talking about. The 50 million "uninsured".
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I can agree with socialized healthcare for anyone age 15 and younger. Everyone else can work for it.

what if ones ability is such he/she can't afford it? More and more employers are nixing health. And over 50% of the population in this country make less than 30K per year. Modest Health plan range from 1200-1600 per month for a family.. See the math problem.

Bullsh!t! You've got to have pre-existing conditions with claims to pay that much a month.


You should go into the business then..Find me some insurance for a family of 4 fore less and I'll belive you. My single brother 24 pays $900 mo no pre-existing, aliet a PPO. HOP, posted right here how it was impossible to find insurance less than $1200. Again instead of saying bullsh1t find me even an HMO plan with say ~250 deductale, 80/20 for 4 for $1200. This is about as modest as you can get.

Sounds like you brother should be paying for major medical insurance and then paying for everything else out of pocket.

$11,000 a year will take care of alot doctor visits and meds....
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I can agree with socialized healthcare for anyone age 15 and younger. Everyone else can work for it.

what if ones ability is such he/she can't afford it? More and more employers are nixing health. And over 50% of the population in this country make less than 30K per year. Modest Health plan range from 1200-1600 per month for a family.. See the math problem.

Bullsh!t! You've got to have pre-existing conditions with claims to pay that much a month.


You should go into the business then..Find me some insurance for a family of 4 fore less and I'll belive you. My single brother 24 pays $900 mo no pre-existing, aliet a PPO. HOP, posted right here how it was impossible to find insurance less than $1200. Again instead of saying bullsh1t find me even an HMO plan with say ~250 deductale, 80/20 for 4 for $1200. This is about as modest as you can get.

Are you talking about self-employed people? Anyone with insurance through work doesn't pay that much a month.

Self-employed, independant contractors, day labor, seasonal labor, unemployed, or employers who don't subsidize or offer a plan to thier employees. Basically if your on your own. This the people we are talking about. The 50 million "uninsured".

Most of those people are uninsured due to their own fault. I can't honestly feel sorry.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: rbloedow
Because it's inefficient (anything run by the government is inefficient), and your taxes will skyrocket to pay for it.  Quality and efficiency will both be flushed down the toilet.  The survey at the bottom of this page illistruates these ideas: <A href="http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/healthcare.htm">http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/healthcare.htm</A> (yeah, I know the website is questionable, but the survey from the Canadian Medical Association Journal is not). 

Never hear the right bitching ineffiient about agencies used to kill or imprison people. In Fact they never meet a prison/defence/CIA bill they did'nt like. Heaven forbid governement uses it buying power and laws to help people.

You think we should have a privatized police force? That is the whole point of our gov't! To protect the people. Yes, they are incredibly wasteful and inefficient, but who else would put up the money to do that? No one. That's why the gov't has to do it.

The only individuals who think universal healthcare is good are the ones that can't afford healthcare now. They support it because it means more freebies from the gov't. Well let me tell you, we shouldn't have to give up 30% of our income to our gov't. That just pushes more and more people into a lower social class unless you tax the rich more, in which case you are punishing the successful people and you are eliminating the upper class.
What we need is a MAJOR reform in the way medicine is practiced. We need malpractice lawsuit limits and insurance caps. We need stuff like that so that costs are lowered overall and ordinary people can afford healthcare on their own. But this won't happen because it will lower tax revenue and that is BAAAAD (according to the people on these boards).


I can't see much of your post..are these forums messed up?


But your right "That is the whole point of our gov't! To protect the people." health "coverage" = "protection" Moreover it's the governemnts duty to provide general welfare for it's citizens which should include some basic heath care. I wager it costs the system more to let people go w/o heatlh insurance then pop into the emergency room cronic or terminal than ongoing basic care. Dr. Bali eluded to this earlier. We are already paying for it with higher premiums.
wow, you're right. These upgrades really have lots of bugs in them. Looks like they should have run a few more tests.
I do not believe that healthcare is part of the general welfare of it's citizens. People have a right to health, but I believe that America was founded with the belief that if you work hard, you get more. If you don't work, you don't eat. If people can't work becaues of a flaw in the system, they system should be fixed. We should attack the root of this problem, not just the symptoms. I hope I didn't mix too many metaphors up :). The root of the problem seems to be that doctor bills are too high. Instead of just providing free insurance, we should work to lower those bills somehow by finding out why those bills are so high. From what I hear, malpractice insurance is a huge one. So we should work to find a way to lower malpractice insurance. Why is it so high? Maybe because people are suing doctors too much, or because insurance companies are crooked, or both? These are the issues we should be fixing. If we fix these problems, we won't need Universal Healthcare.

Just my oppinion.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Malpractice is what the AMA/pharm cos/insurance lobbies are saying But I don't believe it because the numbers don't add up and they refuse to provide any. Considering thier advsarial relationship to our lawyers we hire I hold everything they say with mistrust. So should you. Natually they want thier liability and culpabiltiy reduced from thier mistakes and lawyers are an easy target. We all hate them till we need one. When you see how low malpractice insurance is relative to all the other costs its less than 5-7% of total care/ I gladly pay that increase to have the protection from incompitance or carelessness to one of my family members or self.

 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
What argument can there possibly be against universal heathcare that makes it so distasteful in the USA? Is it the fact that everyone would get the same level of health care that the middle and upper class get currently? Does the fry cook breaking her back at two jobs simply not deserve a doctor visit because she's not as fortunate as we are? What is it? Maybe the fact that doctors would not make as much money if they were regulated? The lower overall cost?

YEAH BABY!! Me Too!!!

Bring it on! I want it right now!

steady income...benefits, no malpractice lawyers trying to pimp me, come late, leave early!!
if you make a fuss....GO TO THE END OF THE LINE!

yep, I WANT NATIONALIZE HEALTH CARE NOW....

but not for any of the reasons that you believe (by the way, they are all basically wrong)..


 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Malpractice is what the AMA/pharm cos/insurance lobbies are saying But I don't believe it because the numbers don't add up and they refuse to provide any. Considering thier advsarial relationship to our lawyers we hire I hold everything they say with mistrust. So should you. Natually they want thier liability and culpabiltiy reduced from thier mistakes and lawyers are an easy target. We all hate them till we need one. When you see how low malpractice insurance is relative to all the other costs its less than 5-7% of total care/ I gladly pay that increase to have the protection from incompitance or carelessness to one of my family members or self.

What field do you work in?
I used malpractice as an example. I really don't know what causes the high prices, but malpractice is always the big one that people bring up. I just think we should look for the reason why people can't afford health care, rather than just doling out more money for more and more of it.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
What argument can there possibly be against universal heathcare that makes it so distasteful in the USA? Is it the fact that everyone would get the same level of health care that the middle and upper class get currently? Does the fry cook breaking her back at two jobs simply not deserve a doctor visit because she's not as fortunate as we are? What is it? Maybe the fact that doctors would not make as much money if they were regulated? The lower overall cost?

YEAH BABY!! Me Too!!!

Bring it on! I want it right now!

steady income...benefits, no malpractice lawyers trying to pimp me, come late, leave early!!
if you make a fuss....GO TO THE END OF THE LINE!

yep, I WANT NATIONALIZE HEALTH CARE NOW....

but not for any of the reasons that you believe (by the way, they are all basically wrong)..

Perhaps you could explain why it costs so much to go to the doctor? Why are prices so high?
 

leeboy

Banned
Dec 8, 2003
451
0
0
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I can agree with socialized healthcare for anyone age 15 and younger. Everyone else can work for it.

what if ones ability is such he/she can't afford it? More and more employers are nixing health. And over 50% of the population in this country make less than 30K per year. Modest Health plan range from 1200-1600 per month for a family.. See the math problem.

Bullsh!t! You've got to have pre-existing conditions with claims to pay that much a month.


You should go into the business then..Find me some insurance for a family of 4 fore less and I'll belive you. My single brother 24 pays $900 mo no pre-existing, aliet a PPO. HOP, posted right here how it was impossible to find insurance less than $1200. Again instead of saying bullsh1t find me even an HMO plan with say ~250 deductale, 80/20 for 4 for $1200. This is about as modest as you can get.

Are you talking about self-employed people? Anyone with insurance through work doesn't pay that much a month.

Self-employed, independant contractors, day labor, seasonal labor, unemployed, or employers who don't subsidize or offer a plan to thier employees. Basically if your on your own. This the people we are talking about. The 50 million "uninsured".

Most of those people are uninsured due to their own fault. I can't honestly feel sorry.

:roll:
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
my payment for medical services has always gone DOWN.

i get paid about 1/2 - 1/3 the amount i use to get paid 10 years ago!!

meanwhile my office expense goes up every year, and my malpractice goes up every year.

trail lawyers are costing you more than you can ever imagine, including possibly your life. why should i operate on someone who has no insurance, when my out of pocket COST for doing the surgery is about $1000 per case? I have to pay REAL DOLLARS for malpractice insurance, office rent, and office personel, office equipment, etc. this works out to about nearly $1000 per sugery. If i'm gonna get paid NOTHING, why should i do it? I'm not going to go broke to take care of your unemployed cousin Billie BoB.

your health care costs are up because insurance companies want to make a profit, "Managed care" companies are in the business of makjing money, they don't really do anything but act as a broker, buying and selling "coverd lives" like poker chips, and pocketing a feww dollars with each transaction..middle men consolidators that pass on the "savings" TO THEMSELVES!

your blind if you think lawyers help you, and doctors are out to hurt you. the overwhelming majority of malpractice lawsuits get dismissed where i practice (80%?) of those that actually ever make it to trial, 75% of those go in favor of the doctor...a miniscule percent of malpractice claims ever end up going in favor of the plantiff.

now out of that system of limited health care dollars, a steady stream of physician income and hospital income goes to paying insurance executives, plantiffs attorneys, and defendants attorneys. They ALL make good money,. so instead of your health care dollars paying for another nurse, hiring a new doctor, buying a new MRI machine, a sizable chunck of your health care dollars goes every year to supportin a vast industry of attorneys and insurance executives (and the stock of the insurance company). in return, a MINISCULE number of malpractice cases go in favor of the plantiffs.

do you believe that is the most efficient and best way to spend your health care dollars?

the canadian system which liberals generally hold up as a model for use in this country...there malpractice system consists of a judge. your lawyer and the plantiffs lawyer tell the judge what they want, and the judge makes a decision. malpractice awards generally only occcur if the wrong limb was amputated, or the wrong patient was operated on! If you check the system out on other "highly developed" countries touteed as having execellent health care systems....essentially NO malpractice system...more like a workers comp system..

it's up to you...support tort reform...more of your money goes towards taking care of you..
support the lawyers and the insurance companies...if you think that gets you "better care"

who am i to decide..i only work there..
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Why are you blaming the trial lawyers? They can't do sh1t w/o a plantiff. And in this country we are gaunteed by the consititution our day on civil court when we feel wronged. This is like blaming the cop for a ticket cause you were speeding.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
OMG, heartsurgeon said something . . . in complete sentences . . . that I must . . . agree with . . . almost entirely . . . ARGH!
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
OMG, heartsurgeon said something . . . in complete sentences . . . that I must . . . agree with . . . almost entirely . . . ARGH!
Call 911! I'm having crushing chest pains....can't brea.....
 

leeboy

Banned
Dec 8, 2003
451
0
0
:shocked: I have to agree BBD. No partisan anything, just a guy pissed off at the man! I like it. We will make a Liberal out of you yet HS ;)
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,407
8,595
126
wow, tons of people around here seem to think that getting insurance as a benefit from the employer is "free"
 

TheSavage

Junior Member
Dec 19, 2003
22
0
0
Has our government ever truly run anything efficiently? Do you expect it to start with healthcare? Another question - why
do people from so many other countries come here for healthcare? My perspective on it that, although costs are high, so is
the quality. I know the quality is high, as I am pinned together with titanium and have survied a C-6 burst fracture. My current
health insurance cost is over $1500 / month......but I still would prefer this to socialized medicine.
 

Ilmater

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2002
7,516
1
0
I refuse to waste minutes of my life reading what has been written to this point, so I'll just give the two reasons:

1) All the good doctors in the world come here because we pay so well. I like having good doctors.

2) Damn Communists! It IS a good reason!
 

jahawkin

Golden Member
Aug 24, 2000
1,355
0
0
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: jahawkin
The US spends 14.1 percent of its GDP on healthcare while Canada spends 9.7 percent of its GDP on healthcare. link

Knowing this, all this talk about Canada speding more and getting less is return because of their government run system is totally false.

That's a total fallacy. Because the US is richer and has more modern care and more R&D our costs are going to be higher. We spend WAY more trying to keep people alive, and we have WAY more elective surgeries that insurance does/doesn't cover. Try again.

Logical fallacy? Not really. R&D has nothing to do with these numbers. It is not included.
The US being richer has nothing to do with this either, as these numbers are percentage of GDP.
So all that is left of your argument is that the US has more elective surgeries. I'm sure the $40 billion Canada would have to spend if they spent the same as the US (in terms of GDP) would cover such elective surgeries and then some.