Why NOT universal healthcare?

[WinkOsmosis]

What argument can there possibly be against universal heathcare that makes it so distasteful in the USA? Is it the fact that everyone would get the same level of health care that the middle and upper class get currently? Does the fry cook breaking her back at two jobs simply not deserve a doctor visit because she's not as fortunate as we are? What is it? Maybe the fact that doctors would not make as much money if they were regulated? The lower overall cost?

Link

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
What argument can there possibly be against universal heathcare that makes it so distasteful in the USA? Is it the fact that everyone would get the same level of health care that the middle and upper class get currently? Does the fry cook breaking her back at two jobs simply not deserve a doctor visit because she's not as fortunate as we are? What is it?

Question for you:

Do you want the Federal gov't basically having control of your medical records?

CkG

Edit - and "damn socialism"

 

[Painman]

You can sum up the usual conservative viewpoint thusly:

1) In this great country of endless opportunity, why did she only aspire to being a fry cook? Why should we reward her for her lack of ambition?

2) She probably eats too much fried food anyway,has bad health, and that's her own fault too.

I've seen a lot of libertarian debate over the issue of healthcare being a private or a public good (with the Libertarian stance being that it's a private good), I don't agree with it, I'm with the Damn Communists on this particular issue.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
What argument can there possibly be against universal heathcare that makes it so distasteful in the USA? Is it the fact that everyone would get the same level of health care that the middle and upper class get currently? Does the fry cook breaking her back at two jobs simply not deserve a doctor visit because she's not as fortunate as we are? What is it?

Question for you:

Do you want the Federal gov't basically having control of your medical records?

CkG

Edit - and "damn socialism"

They already do just ask your Hero, Rush.

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
What argument can there possibly be against universal heathcare that makes it so distasteful in the USA? Is it the fact that everyone would get the same level of health care that the middle and upper class get currently? Does the fry cook breaking her back at two jobs simply not deserve a doctor visit because she's not as fortunate as we are? What is it?

Question for you:

Do you want the Federal gov't basically having control of your medical records?

CkG

Edit - and "damn socialism"

I don't give a damn who has control of my medical records. Ask people who can't work because they can't afford antibiotics for their roofing injuries if they care about what the government controls and doesn't control. This "keep the government out of working for the public good and keep them everywhere else" style of libertarianism is nonsensical.

 

[Steeplerot]

How dare you want health care you commie! If you want such things why don't you join the army and die for oil like a good American!

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

The only logical reason I can think of is:

Do you want to pay for it?

 

[smashp]

Dont Worry. CORPORATIONS are pushing for univerasal healthcare. The costs are killing them also.

The Reason some people dont want a universal healthcare system is becasue its harder to rape all that profit out of the industry.

Privatization = PROFITEERING

Hell the majority of the research is already done by the Gov.


All we pay more for is Advertisements and Nascar sponcerships.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
What argument can there possibly be against universal heathcare that makes it so distasteful in the USA? Is it the fact that everyone would get the same level of health care that the middle and upper class get currently? Does the fry cook breaking her back at two jobs simply not deserve a doctor visit because she's not as fortunate as we are? What is it?

Question for you:

Do you want the Federal gov't basically having control of your medical records?

CkG

Edit - and "damn socialism"

I don't give a damn who has control of my medical records. Ask people who can't work because they can't afford antibiotics for their roofing injuries if they care about what the government controls and doesn't control. This "keep the government out of working for the public good and keep them everywhere else" style of libertarianism is nonsensical.

OK, so you don't care about your personal privacy, but what about the rest of us who do?

Next question(sort of like what TheBoyBlunder asked but a different angle):
Why do you want everyone else to pay for your medical treatment?

CkG

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
What argument can there possibly be against universal heathcare that makes it so distasteful in the USA? Is it the fact that everyone would get the same level of health care that the middle and upper class get currently? Does the fry cook breaking her back at two jobs simply not deserve a doctor visit because she's not as fortunate as we are? What is it?

Question for you:

Do you want the Federal gov't basically having control of your medical records?

CkG

Edit - and "damn socialism"

I don't give a damn who has control of my medical records. Ask people who can't work because they can't afford antibiotics for their roofing injuries if they care about what the government controls and doesn't control. This "keep the government out of working for the public good and keep them everywhere else" style of libertarianism is nonsensical.

OK, so you don't care about your personal privacy, but what about the rest of us who do?

Next question(sort of like what TheBoyBlunder asked but a different angle):
Why do you want everyone else to pay for your medical treatment?

CkG

in the Current System

If you dont go to the Doctor or get sick YOU ARE PAYING FOR THEIR TREATMENT

And Then They Up your premiums to pay for The Higher Costs for treatment.

Their is no "Healthy Driver Discount"

I pay for everyone elses now.

 

[Zephyr106]

Originally posted by: smashp
Dont Worry. CORPORATIONS are pushing for univerasal healthcare. The costs are killing them also.



The Reason some people dont want a universal healthcare system is becasue its harder to rape all that profit out of the industry.



Privatization = PROFITEERING



Hell the majority of the research is already done by the Gov.





All we pay more for is Advertisements and Nascar sponcerships.

Exactly. The amount of silly nonsensical technically-useless advertisement for prescription drugs only to be prescribed by licensed physicians is amazing.

Zephyr

 

[MovingTarget]

Well, a lot of people just don't want government in charge of the whole system, whether it be for economic reasons or (as in teh case of some libertarians) that it should not be a function of government in the first place (like common defense of peoples' rights). Others think a safety net such as SS/Medicare/Medicaid is a reasonable compromise for those who cannot afford healthcare. They also think that universal healthcare run by the government cannot be managed efficiently enough, thereby stifling progress in research/development of drugs and driving up taxes. Big government=bloat. Personally I would like to see a more highly regulated healthcare industry, sort of like utilities are regulated (in some areas). But to only have one source for healthcare/etc, I'll pass.

and yes, damn socialists....

 

[Painman]

Originally posted by: TheBoyBlunder
The only logical reason I can think of is: Do you want to pay for it?

I already do payfor private health insurance, jump through their hoops and deal with their own brand of bureaucratic red tape. Then the insurance co. and the hospital quibble over which procedures/drugs are covered, which aren't, and in the end, a past due bill arrives in my mailbox anyway.

Originally posted by: smashp
in the Current System

If you dont go to the Doctor or get sick YOU ARE PAYING FOR THEIR TREATMENT

And Then They Up your premiums to pay for The Higher Costs for treatment.

Their is no "Healthy Driver Discount"

I pay for everyone elses now.

:beer:

I've been fortunate, I rarely get sick or need to see a doctor. I'm a very small burden upon the healthcare system, but I pay the same as everyone else, more all the time. I know of no other form of private insurance that works this way.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Well, a lot of people just don't want government in charge of the whole system, whether it be for economic reasons or (as in teh case of some libertarians) that it should not be a function of government in the first place (like common defense of peoples' rights). Others think a safety net such as SS/Medicare/Medicaid is a reasonable compromise for those who cannot afford healthcare. They also think that universal healthcare run by the government cannot be managed efficiently enough, thereby stifling progress in research/development of drugs and driving up taxes. Big government=bloat. Personally I would like to see a more highly regulated healthcare industry, sort of like utilities are regulated (in some areas). But to only have one source for healthcare/etc, I'll pass.



and yes, damn socialists....

Its interesting that almost all of the Breakthrough Drugs and Research are already done By the US government. Then Private corporations Patent the Tech they didnt even develop.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Zephyr106

Originally posted by: smashp

Dont Worry. CORPORATIONS are pushing for univerasal healthcare. The costs are killing them also.







The Reason some people dont want a universal healthcare system is becasue its harder to rape all that profit out of the industry.







Privatization = PROFITEERING







Hell the majority of the research is already done by the Gov.











All we pay more for is Advertisements and Nascar sponcerships.

Exactly. The amount of silly nonsensical technically-useless advertisement for prescription drugs only to be prescribed by licensed physicians is amazing.



Zephyr

That is one thing about the pharmaseutical companies that really pisses me off. Why should they be allowed to advertise to the general public substances that they cannot purchase themselves? There should be laws against that. Yeah, doctors should have access to information (not marketing propaganda) about new drugs and advancements that go on, but that is not the intent nor effect of said commercials/ads.

 

[leeboy]

Hell, I would be happy if the drug manufacturers and pharmasists were forced to charge a "reasonible" price for medications. I can deal with the occasional visit to the doctor out of pocket expense, but who can (without some sort of prescription health care plan) afford medications?

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Do you want the Federal gov't basically having control of your medical records?

Nope, he probably prefers his employer, health insurer, and financial institution . . . all of which in one form or another can access your medical record.

The primary problem I have with universal coverage is that invariably the capitalist American MO . . . aka feeding at the trough . . . effect. We need fundamental reform in the care we provide to be concurrent with reforms in how it is financed.

The capitalist pigs that prowl and scowl about "Socialized Medicine" have a weak grasp of history and the value of healthier population. My state (NC) founded a School of Public Health after 50% of WWII draftees failed their physicals.

The BS Medicare Modernization Act is a horrible waste of money. You could probably take 1/10 of the initial overbudget and provide group nutrition and exercise counseling to old people. Double or triple that amount to give the old farts new and better venues to keep active and eat well. Grandma doing tai chi while drinking some chai tea makes a lot more sense than padding Pfizer's balance sheet.

Spend a little more money and these Senior Centers could include chronic disease management specialists (geriatricians). Everybody gets regular checkups, reasonable immunization including ANNUAL flu shot, multivitamins, essential fatty acids, b12 shot (essentially worthless but most old people like 'em), and a daily baby aspirin.

We could do an even better job with children . . . all for less than what it costs now. Of course, the savings come not only from procedural costs . . . no more HealthSouth/HCAColumbia, surgical fees go into the pooper, advanced diagnostics take it on the chin as well. Many thousands of people will lose their jobs in the healthcare industry. But considering they weren't really providing any healthcare they need to be doing something else anyway.

 

[smashp]

What About "Reduced Rates" helathcare companies negotiate.

If you are insured Operation or Drug X costs $100 with a $10 co-pay

If you have No insurance, Operation or Drug X costs $200.


Why are you F@cked if you have no insurance at all?

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Well, a lot of people just don't want government in charge of the whole system, whether it be for economic reasons or (as in teh case of some libertarians) that it should not be a function of government in the first place (like common defense of peoples' rights). Others think a safety net such as SS/Medicare/Medicaid is a reasonable compromise for those who cannot afford healthcare. They also think that universal healthcare run by the government cannot be managed efficiently enough, thereby stifling progress in research/development of drugs and driving up taxes. Big government=bloat. Personally I would like to see a more highly regulated healthcare industry, sort of like utilities are regulated (in some areas). But to only have one source for healthcare/etc, I'll pass.







and yes, damn socialists....

Its interesting that almost all of the Breakthrough Drugs and Research are already done By the US government. Then Private corporations Patent the Tech they didnt even develop.

From what I understand, teh government does fund a vast amount of research into new drugs. However, the research is done by universities/companies, not directly by the federal government themselves (most of the time).

Also, consider this. What about all the new breakthroughs that will soon come from genetic/stem cell research? The government (esp this administration) will not fund many such ventures although they allow private companies to do so. If the government were completly in charge of all development without the private market, this research would not happen. (I am reffering to the recent action by the bush administration regarding stem cell research) The private sector plays a major role in our medical research. To have this nationalized directly under government control would be to our detriment imho.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: leeboy
Hell, I would be happy if the drug manufacturers and pharmasists were forced to charge a "reasonible" price for medications. I can deal with the occasional visit to the doctor out of pocket expense, but who can (without some sort of prescription health care plan) afford medications?

This I might agree with if it is done in an efficient manner. I may not have the answers, but better regulation such as this may be all we need without going as far as to have socialized medicine.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: MovingTarget



Well, a lot of people just don't want government in charge of the whole system, whether it be for economic reasons or (as in teh case of some libertarians) that it should not be a function of government in the first place (like common defense of peoples' rights). Others think a safety net such as SS/Medicare/Medicaid is a reasonable compromise for those who cannot afford healthcare. They also think that universal healthcare run by the government cannot be managed efficiently enough, thereby stifling progress in research/development of drugs and driving up taxes. Big government=bloat. Personally I would like to see a more highly regulated healthcare industry, sort of like utilities are regulated (in some areas). But to only have one source for healthcare/etc, I'll pass.



















and yes, damn socialists....

Its interesting that almost all of the Breakthrough Drugs and Research are already done By the US government. Then Private corporations Patent the Tech they didnt even develop.

From what I understand, teh government does fund a vast amount of research into new drugs. However, the research is done by universities/companies, not directly by the federal government themselves.



Also, consider this. What about all the new breakthroughs that will soon come from genetic/stem cell research? The government (esp this administration) will not fund many such ventures although they allow private companies to do so. If the government were completly in charge of all development without the private market, this research would not happen. (I am reffering to the recent action by the bush administration regarding stem cell research) The private sector plays a major role in our medical research. To have this nationalized directly under government control would be to our detriment imho.

good point on stem cell. But I should have said grant money pays for tha larger majority of research.

 

[Ryan]

Because it's inefficient (anything run by the government is inefficient), and your taxes will skyrocket to pay for it. Quality and efficiency will both be flushed down the toilet. The survey at the bottom of this page illistruates these ideas: http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/healthcare.htm(yeah, I know the website is questionable, but the survey from the Canadian Medical Association Journal is not).

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
What argument can there possibly be against universal heathcare that makes it so distasteful in the USA? Is it the fact that everyone would get the same level of health care that the middle and upper class get currently? Does the fry cook breaking her back at two jobs simply not deserve a doctor visit because she's not as fortunate as we are? What is it?

Question for you:
Do you want the Federal gov't basically having control of your medical records?
CkG
Edit - and "damn socialism"

I don't give a damn who has control of my medical records. Ask people who can't work because they can't afford antibiotics for their roofing injuries if they care about what the government controls and doesn't control. This "keep the government out of working for the public good and keep them everywhere else" style of libertarianism is nonsensical.

OK, so you don't care about your personal privacy, but what about the rest of us who do?
Next question(sort of like what TheBoyBlunder asked but a different angle):

Why do you want everyone else to pay for your medical treatment?
CkG

in the Current System
If you dont go to the Doctor or get sick YOU ARE PAYING FOR THEIR TREATMENT
And Then They Up your premiums to pay for The Higher Costs for treatment.
Their is no "Healthy Driver Discount"
I pay for everyone elses now.

That isn't the question. The question is: Why do you want everyone else to pay for your medical treatment? I don't want other people to pay for my treatment, and I don't wish to pay for theirs. Socialized medicine doesn't change that aspect. You see - I'm not a big believer in the current system - it is broken, but socializing things isn't the answer IMO. I'd like to see things go back towards a user fee system. And IF (and only if) we could get back to something like that I'd support a form of universal preventative care for children(the structure of which I've posted a few times here) but again - I don't see that happening with the current crop of "universal heathcare" cheerleaders.

CkG

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
What argument can there possibly be against universal heathcare that makes it so distasteful in the USA? Is it the fact that everyone would get the same level of health care that the middle and upper class get currently? Does the fry cook breaking her back at two jobs simply not deserve a doctor visit because she's not as fortunate as we are? What is it?

Question for you:
Do you want the Federal gov't basically having control of your medical records?
CkG
Edit - and "damn socialism"

I don't give a damn who has control of my medical records. Ask people who can't work because they can't afford antibiotics for their roofing injuries if they care about what the government controls and doesn't control. This "keep the government out of working for the public good and keep them everywhere else" style of libertarianism is nonsensical.

OK, so you don't care about your personal privacy, but what about the rest of us who do?
Next question(sort of like what TheBoyBlunder asked but a different angle):

Why do you want everyone else to pay for your medical treatment?
CkG

in the Current System
If you dont go to the Doctor or get sick YOU ARE PAYING FOR THEIR TREATMENT
And Then They Up your premiums to pay for The Higher Costs for treatment.
Their is no "Healthy Driver Discount"
I pay for everyone elses now.

That isn't the question. The question is: Why do you want everyone else to pay for your medical treatment? I don't want other people to pay for my treatment, and I don't wish to pay for theirs. Socialized medicine doesn't change that aspect. You see - I'm not a big believer in the current system - it is broken, but socializing things isn't the answer IMO. I'd like to see things go back towards a user fee system. And IF (and only if) we could get back to something like that I'd support a form of universal preventative care for children(the structure of which I've posted a few times here) but again - I don't see that happening with the current crop of "universal heathcare" cheerleaders.

CkG

They need to reform the industry so its primarily about health instead of primarily about profit.

 

[WinkOsmosis]

If you are so reluctant to pay for other people's healthcare, cancel your current health insurance policy, and actually pay for it, like less fortunate people do (or don't).