Why No One Will Sell You The Bike You Want.

[JCH13]

How do you know that? The point is, you didn't get hit by a car. Getting hit side on or rear ended both have undesirable consequences for bikers, so they should be avoided at all costs. I have three possible methods of collision avoidance, maneuver left or right, stop, or go. You only have two options, because you've decided in advance that one of them can't be used. I don't understand that, not getting hit is the entire point, and while acceleration is rarely as useful as slowing, it can be used for collision avoidance.

Did I ever say that you should never use the throttle? No. Did it work, or can it work? Yes. Does that mean it's the best option? No. Can virtually all 'situations' be avoided by prudent anticipation and good situation awareness? Yes. Should you just let yourself get hit? No.

My point, which I will reiterate, was that the absurd acceleration available in a motorcycle is serious overkill for the purposes of collision avoidance, and using acceleration to avoid a collision isn't a great option in the first place.

Using a sport bike's power to avoid an accident is like walking around with a grenade launcher for self defense: you should never need it (hardly anyone ever does), and if you do use it there's a non-zero chance you're going to get yourself into trouble.

 

[Greenman]

Did I ever say that you should never use the throttle? No. Did it work, or can it work? Yes. Does that mean it's the best option? No. Can virtually all 'situations' be avoided by prudent anticipation and good situation awareness? Yes. Should you just let yourself get hit? No.

My point, which I will reiterate, was that the absurd acceleration available in a motorcycle is serious overkill for the purposes of collision avoidance, and using acceleration to avoid a collision isn't a great option in the first place.

Using a sport bike's power to avoid an accident is like walking around with a grenade launcher for self defense: you should never need it (hardly anyone ever does), and if you do use it there's a non-zero chance you're going to get yourself into trouble.

I'd agree with all of that but the part about being able to avoid all dangerous situations. The only way to avoid all of them is to park your bike. But I'd agree that the vast majority can be anticipated and avoided.

 

[JulesMaximus]

How do you know that? The point is, you didn't get hit by a car. Getting hit side on or rear ended both have undesirable consequences for bikers, so they should be avoided at all costs. I have three possible methods of collision avoidance, maneuver left or right, stop, or go. You only have two options, because you've decided in advance that one of them can't be used. I don't understand that, not getting hit is the entire point, and while acceleration is rarely as useful as slowing, it can be used for collision avoidance.

All the times I've used acceleration to "avoid a collision" it was the easy way out and there was such little chance of danger I just used it mainly to make a point to the driver who started coming over into my lane. Braking and/or steering would have accomplished the same thing and I had multiple options in these situations. I've never had an encounter where my ONLY option was accelerating out of it. I honestly can't think of many situations in which that would be my only option of escape unless I had been doing something insanely stupid.

 

[JCH13]

I'd agree with all of that but the part about being able to avoid all dangerous situations. The only way to avoid all of them is to park your bike. But I'd agree that the vast majority can be anticipated and avoided.

I said "virtually all" and you think I said "all" and want to go with "vast majority" instead?

Your post before that you said that I have "decided in advance that one of them [acceleration] can't be used" when all I said was that using the throttle wasn't a good option.

You are continuing to disagree with things that I didn't actually say. 😕

 

[hanoverphist]

i think more teaching and less joyriding would go a long way for new and newer riders. my son wants to get a bike of his own, even tho he hasnt ever ridden one so far. which is weird, since he has had many opportunities, since pretty much all his family rides. he will take the courses, and i will ride with him for a long time to kind of sway his techniques and habits in the right direction to not be a spot in the road. i did the same for my brother, and he turned out to be a good rider. seriously shitty driver, but a good rider.

i have no comment on the pissing match you guys started with the accelerate to get out a sitch thing. everyone has their own judgement and methods to avoid/ escape danger, yours is not the only, nor the best (for everyone) method.

 

[Throckmorton]

So what if the 0-60 stat isn't all that great compared to modern cars?
As long as it keeps up with traffic then its fine.

The point of a motorcycle isn't to out accelerate everyone and their mother.

For a couple weeks I had a Nissan Altima rental car. Often I'd pull out from a stop and be unable to accelerate to the speed of traffic, meaning the approaching cars had to brake for me. There's a pretty high chance in such a situation that you'll be hit by an inattentive driver, which is bad in a car but fatal on a motorcycle...

In my Mustang I can get to 45mph in 4 seconds, the Altima takes 6 seconds. Huge difference! A bike with an 11 sec 0-60 is even slower than the Altima

 

[Throckmorton]

Le sigh, are you being dense on purpose? There's a big (and obvious) difference between applying the throttle to control a vehicle and applying the throttle to "get out of a situation," at least there is in my opinion.

I'm not saying no one should ever use their throttle to control their vehicle, you should use every control available. What I am saying is that there are few, if any, "situations," i.e. as a result of other drivers or traffic, where hitting the throttle is a good way to get out of it. Greenman offered the situation of, essentially, someone deciding that they were going to merge into him. I've been in this situation, and avoided it using the throttle. In hindsight however I could have used my horn, hit the brakes and slowed down, or better-anticipated the merging zone. Any of these would have been better than hitting the throttle and winding up going way over the speed limit.

Every single time I've had someone try to merge onto my car, my instinct has been to accelerate to get out of the way. Braking might be better, but in a situation like that you don't have time to reason out the possibilities. If your instinct says to speed up, and your vehicle is too slow to get out of the way, you're suddenly in an even worse situation because you probably can't brake to get out of the way.

Not only that, but you are always aware of what is in front of you, while seeing if someone is tailgating you is another step that takes time. If you instinctively brake when someone is merging onto you, without checking the mirror, that's bad. And if you look and see that someone is tailgating too close to brake hard, what do you do with your slow 11 sec 0-60 scooter?? You die!!

 

[JCH13]

Every single time I've had someone try to merge onto my car, my instinct has been to accelerate to get out of the way. Braking might be better, but in a situation like that you don't have time to reason out the possibilities. If your instinct says to speed up, and your vehicle is too slow to get out of the way, you're suddenly in an even worse situation because you probably can't brake to get out of the way.

Not only that, but you are always aware of what is in front of you, while seeing if someone is tailgating you is another step that takes time. If you instinctively brake when someone is merging onto you, without checking the mirror, that's bad. And if you look and see that someone is tailgating too close to brake hard, what do you do with your slow 11 sec 0-60 scooter?? You die!!

If your instincts tell you to do something that you know isn't the best option... well... maybe think about trying to control your instincts better.

If you're not checking your mirrors several times per minute (every 6-10s or whatever your driver's ed suggested), you're not driving safely. A regular visual search pattern is a large part of driving safely. If you can't tell with reasonable certainty what's happening behind you at any given moment you ought to be doing something different.

And you also are ignoring other options available as well. Ever tried using a horn? That's a great way to tell someone you're there. You don't need to ninja your way out if they see you. Hell, I've heard of riders kicking the sides of vehicles that were merging into them. Other times there is even a breakdown lane one could turn into.

My point remains that if one is driving safely there should virtually never be a reason to accelerate to get out of a 'situation.' Sometimes we might get caught with our pants down and *think* that accelerating is the only option, but the only excuse for that is getting a little sloppy behind the wheel/bars.

 

[pauldun170]

For a couple weeks I had a Nissan Altima rental car. Often I'd pull out from a stop and be unable to accelerate to the speed of traffic, meaning the approaching cars had to brake for me. There's a pretty high chance in such a situation that you'll be hit by an inattentive driver, which is bad in a car but fatal on a motorcycle...

In my Mustang I can get to 45mph in 4 seconds, the Altima takes 6 seconds. Huge difference! A bike with an 11 sec 0-60 is even slower than the Altima

Are you sure you started the engine of the Altima?
Were you pushing the car from behind or pulling it with your teeth?

 

[Triumph]

All the times I've used acceleration to "avoid a collision" it was the easy way out and there was such little chance of danger I just used it mainly to make a point to the driver who started coming over into my lane. Braking and/or steering would have accomplished the same thing and I had multiple options in these situations. I've never had an encounter where my ONLY option was accelerating out of it. I honestly can't think of many situations in which that would be my only option of escape unless I had been doing something insanely stupid.

I never realized how much I used acceleration as an escape method until I got a bike that had none. Now I really miss it. My KLR650 isn't exactly fast, and for a while the horn didn't work, so I had a few near-miss merges that I would never have had a problem with on any other bike. Fixed the horn and that helped alot, but I miss the acceleration. But honestly, people merging into you isn't exactly a huge problem - on a bike you have PLENTY of road to use that cars can't take advantage of. And you're generally going the same direction. THe main problem is people interfering across your direction.

I see no problem with accelerating away from danger in many situations. Animals have been using speed to avoid death for millions of years. Who am I to argue with natural selection?

 

[JCH13]

I never realized how much I used acceleration as an escape method until I got a bike that had none. Now I really miss it. My KLR650 isn't exactly fast, and for a while the horn didn't work, so I had a few near-miss merges that I would never have had a problem with on any other bike. Fixed the horn and that helped alot, but I miss the acceleration. But honestly, people merging into you isn't exactly a huge problem - on a bike you have PLENTY of road to use that cars can't take advantage of. And you're generally going the same direction. THe main problem is people interfering across your direction.

I see no problem with accelerating away from danger in many situations. Animals have been using speed to avoid death for millions of years. Who am I to argue with natural selection?

I would agree with you if a cheetah was hunting you down on the Serengeti, or this guy was the one merging into you:

:awe:

 

[Yuriman]

I recently moved from a car with a ~6 second 0-60, to one that's 10.5 on a good day (12 on paper) and honestly have had no issues. I'm likely to wait for a slightly bigger gap to pull out into traffic, true, but from a red light I can still generally accelerate past the cars next to me to get into their lane if they're being dicks and not letting me over to turn. A few times I've had large SUVs merge into me which I've safely avoided by braking, but the only thing that's changed there is that my new car doesn't have a fart-pipe on it, so they can't hear me in their blind-spot. All vehicles have horns.

I understand that some people like acceleration as another option, and that's a valid opinion. An 8-second bike (Honda's CBR250R is an 8 second bike) is not for them. However, I'll take an 8 second bike if it means doubling (or tripling) my gas mileage and saving me $10,000+ up front, because I tend to drive defensively and when put on the spot, I've learned other methods of getting out of trouble. Nobody is saying everyone needs to have a "slow" bike, but it would be nice if there was more emphasis placed on that market.

 

[JulesMaximus]

For a couple weeks I had a Nissan Altima rental car. Often I'd pull out from a stop and be unable to accelerate to the speed of traffic, meaning the approaching cars had to brake for me. There's a pretty high chance in such a situation that you'll be hit by an inattentive driver, which is bad in a car but fatal on a motorcycle...

In my Mustang I can get to 45mph in 4 seconds, the Altima takes 6 seconds. Huge difference! A bike with an 11 sec 0-60 is even slower than the Altima

😕 What bike is that? Hell, an SV650 will scoot to 60mph from a stop in under 4 seconds (which would blow the doors off your Mustang).

You sure you didn't have the emergency brake on in that Altima? I drive a Camry Hybrid and I've never had any trouble accelerating to the speed of traffic.

I never realized how much I used acceleration as an escape method until I got a bike that had none. Now I really miss it. My KLR650 isn't exactly fast, and for a while the horn didn't work, so I had a few near-miss merges that I would never have had a problem with on any other bike. Fixed the horn and that helped alot, but I miss the acceleration. But honestly, people merging into you isn't exactly a huge problem - on a bike you have PLENTY of road to use that cars can't take advantage of. And you're generally going the same direction. THe main problem is people interfering across your direction.

I see no problem with accelerating away from danger in many situations. Animals have been using speed to avoid death for millions of years. Who am I to argue with natural selection?

I see no problem with it but I've also been in very very few situations in which acceleration was the only way out, or even the preferred way out. And your analogy is weak. Animals using speed to avoid death are being chased by predators intent on eating them, they are driven by fear. There are no predators chasing you or me, just clueless idiots who really don't intend to cause you any harm.

If you are afraid on a bike you probably shouldn't be riding.

 

[sze5003]

😕 What bike is that? Hell, an SV650 will scoot to 60mph from a stop in under 4 seconds (which would blow the doors off your Mustang).

You sure you didn't have the emergency brake on in that Altima? I drive a Camry Hybrid and I've never had any trouble accelerating to the speed of traffic.

That's odd..my sv is pretty quick and my mother's altima is fast too it gets up to speed pretty quickly, my sister's altima coupe is a bit slower at accelerating..her gas pedal is heavier.

Never had a bike that took 11 seconds to get up to 60..not even a moped does that I think.

Wish I had a garage, I need to sell my bike in the spring since my apartment won't let me store it there and I can't move yet.

 

[Yuriman]

😕 What bike is that? Hell, an SV650 will scoot to 60mph from a stop in under 4 seconds (which would blow the doors off your Mustang).

Honda sells a 250cc cruiser with an 11 second 0-60 and a top speed of ~70mph. That's definitely bordering on dangerous for taking on the highway, but definitely not worse than a scooter for around town.

 

[pauldun170]

Honda sells a 250cc cruiser with an 11 second 0-60 and a top speed of ~70mph. That's definitely bordering on dangerous for taking on the highway, but definitely not worse than a scooter for around town.

(Note: Not attacking you...just using your post as a jump off)

11 second 0-60 is about what you'd expect from a 20 year old (meaning well worn) first gen Miata or an 1990 Lincoln Continental (when it was brand new)

Other examples of a "slow and dangerous" that can be found on the road TODAY (according to the stat chasers) is a 90's Lincoln Navigators, 53 Corvette, 89 Audi Quattro, most Jeep Wranglers built up to the 2000's, most 4 banger Jetta's built up to the late 2000's, early Ford Explorers...all the Dodge Caravan SE's built in the 90's that survived the great transmission die off. Toss in Porche 914's, 924's, Subaru forresters...hell. Lets just say most Subarus built in the 80's and 90's.

All death traps because bro-stats

 

[Triumph]

:
I see no problem with it but I've also been in very very few situations in which acceleration was the only way out, or even the preferred way out. And your analogy is weak. Animals using speed to avoid death are being chased by predators intent on eating them, they are driven by fear. There are no predators chasing you or me, just clueless idiots who really don't intend to cause you any harm.

If you are afraid on a bike you probably shouldn't be riding.

I like how you go from predator analogy -> motivated by fear -> triumph is afraid on a bike -> triumph shouldn't be riding.

I have one major rule that I follow, that has kept me out of trouble in 10 years of commuting in Northern Virginia/DC traffic, and that is I try to get as far away from cars as possible. I want to be in that break in traffic between groups. And since most people love to determine their appropriate speed not by their speedometer but by unconsciously driving the same speed as everyone around them, it's best to outpace them by an order of magnitude such as you can do on a bike. First in line at a red light? I take off up to cruising speed well ahead of the pack. Want to pass someone? It's absolutely idiotic to dilly dally along side them at +3 mph. Change lanes and GO. Get away from them as soon as possible. The more time you spend around cars, the higher the chances of them interacting with you in an unfavorable manner. Someone changing lanes into you? Well if you're right next to them you shouldn't be sitting there in the first place. But your options are to brake and get behind them or accelerate and get ahead of them. I'd rather have that asshole 500 yards behind me, because around here if I slowed down every time I saw a threat, I would eventually stop and end up going backwards.

 

[Greenman]

(Note: Not attacking you...just using your post as a jump off)

11 second 0-60 is about what you'd expect from a 20 year old (meaning well worn) first gen Miata or an 1990 Lincoln Continental (when it was brand new)

Other examples of a "slow and dangerous" that can be found on the road TODAY (according to the stat chasers) is a 90's Lincoln Navigators, 53 Corvette, 89 Audi Quattro, most Jeep Wranglers built up to the 2000's, most 4 banger Jetta's built up to the late 2000's, early Ford Explorers...all the Dodge Caravan SE's built in the 90's that survived the great transmission die off. Toss in Porche 914's, 924's, Subaru forresters...hell. Lets just say most Subarus built in the 80's and 90's.

All death traps because bro-stats

I thought the subject was bikes? If your looking at other vehicles, a loaded diesel truck has a 0 to 60 time of around 90 seconds.

When I'm driving my truck, I don't much worry about someone hitting me. It weighs 5000 pounds and has more air bags than a republican fund raiser. On my bike it's a different story.

 

[olds]

Saw this today and it reminded me of this thread. Didn't realize it was back in 14.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Saw this today and it reminded me of this thread. Didn't realize it was back in 14.

necro! ban him! 😛

 

[pauldun170]

necro thread deserves honorary bikes

 

[JulesMaximus]

I like how you go from predator analogy -> motivated by fear -> triumph is afraid on a bike -> triumph shouldn't be riding.

I have one major rule that I follow, that has kept me out of trouble in 10 years of commuting in Northern Virginia/DC traffic, and that is I try to get as far away from cars as possible. I want to be in that break in traffic between groups. And since most people love to determine their appropriate speed not by their speedometer but by unconsciously driving the same speed as everyone around them, it's best to outpace them by an order of magnitude such as you can do on a bike. First in line at a red light? I take off up to cruising speed well ahead of the pack. Want to pass someone? It's absolutely idiotic to dilly dally along side them at +3 mph. Change lanes and GO. Get away from them as soon as possible. The more time you spend around cars, the higher the chances of them interacting with you in an unfavorable manner. Someone changing lanes into you? Well if you're right next to them you shouldn't be sitting there in the first place. But your options are to brake and get behind them or accelerate and get ahead of them. I'd rather have that asshole 500 yards behind me, because around here if I slowed down every time I saw a threat, I would eventually stop and end up going backwards.

I know this is an old post but re-reading it something occurred to me so I'm going to comment.

I'm not sure where you live but here in SoCal it is impossible to do what you advocate in the bolded portion of your post. Try riding on the freeways here at pretty much any time of day and not be alongside a car. I am alongside cars ALL THE TIME. It is absolutely unavoidable and if you go blasting past them trying to avoid being alongside them you're basically just another squid/idiot on a bike riding like an asshole.

 

[Phanuel]

Well, you can slow down and force a staggered formation...

And then 1 of the 2 things will happen;
1) You'll get honked at and run over or just run over from behind
or
2) Someone will see the gap and squeeze in in-front of you.

But this is all assuming we're not going bumper to bumper at >30mph and I've stopped splitting lanes. Which is pretty much never going to happen, we all must ride that bumper 100% of the time, no matter the speed!