Why Mark McGwire SHOULD be in the HOF

[r6ashih]

I dont really follow baseball so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Has McGuire been able to sustain his home run abilities while off andro? if not then he doesnt deserve it.

 

[dennilfloss]

If it wasn't illegal according to baseball rules while he took it, it shouldn't count against him but he should admit it if he took some then.

 

[Mucho]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
He Cheated.

/thread

Proof?

I'm no Big Mac fan and I think he probably did, but you shouldn't say he cheated unless you have PROOF.

Which we all know you don't.

He took the 5th at the Congressional inquiry, didn't he?

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Midlander
The whole thing is full of hypocrits. Baseball writers don't vote him in, yet they are falling all over themselves to talk about Bonds breaking the homerun record.

Maybe McGwire used drugs beyond the then-legal ones. We don't really know for sure. But we know Bonds has used them. Why then, is he going to be regaled as the homerun king if he breaks Aaron's record?

Too bad baseball STILL doesn't have a good drug policy.

Believe me, pretty much only ESPN is heads-over-heals for Bonds. There's hardly a soul at ESPN that will even acknowledge that Bonds took steroids, they still play dumb on that issue. And even this afternoon when the HOF ballotting was announced, they did this big pitch on how everyone at ESPN supports McGwire for the HOF.

That's my biggest gripe with ESPN, is that they want to take the utmost of sports neutrality. Most of their programs will never take any side on any issue, they try to keep the network straight down the middle. And the most neutral opinion on the steroids issue is that there may still be some shred of doubt, so it must be thrown out of the decision making process.

 

[tm37]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Ilmater
- MLB not doing anything about it was basically saying that it was OK.

No, it doesn't.

Originally posted by: Ilmater
- With usage apparently so rampant, how can you pick whom to exclude and include?

You can exclude them all until more is known about the game during the 90's & into the new millenium. They always have the veteran committee to vote them in if the sportswriters dont.

Gwynn and Ripken just got in and they played and exceled in this era.

The fact that ripken played all thoose consecutive games has to have you question that

Originally posted by: Ilmater
- There is no concrete evidence that he used, and it is theoretically possible for him to not have used and be "that big" (I'm not naive enough to think it's not likely, but it is not a fact either).

There's no concrete evidence that Shoeless Joe cheated, yet he is still banned from the game. You have a bottle of performance enhancing drugs in his locker, and you do have a witness, Jose Canseco, which as sad as it may be, appears to be the most honest and truthful about what's happened to the game.

[/b]Well Joe took money from gamblers. He was banned for Taking money from gamblers and agreeing to fix the world series. You can not prove that he tried to lose but you can not deny that he took money[/b]

Originally posted by: Ilmater
- Congress was on a witch hunt, and he was backed into a corner when he was expecting to talk about baseball as a whole and not his own career.

Then why did the other players not come out looking as tremendously guilty as he did? And if you actually watched those hearings, you would have realized it was not a witch hunt to convict them.
The one player who after walking out looked as though he was spotless was Raffy. Oh Snap

Originally posted by: Ilmater
- His mindset in believing that steroids weren't that bad is understandable given the circumstances.

Not acceptable, steroids are never something to believe in.
and yet there is no proof he did

Originally posted by: Ilmater
- Steroids can't make a regular baseball player into a great one. McGuire was already great outside the numbers.

According to the only source, McGwire used steroids well before '98. So that would pretty much encompass his entire career except for a few of the early years. In other words, he had no numbers before starting steroids. One good season does not make a HOF career, so you can disclude his rookie year when he hit 49 as claim of his greatness.
again you assume that he is guilty and he had some GREAT YEARS. Take away the homers and reggie ain't in.


The Hall of Fame is something that I believe goes far beyond the statistics and numbers of a player. It also should reflect the integrity of the game. And if the entire 90's era gets thrown out of the Hall because the facts can't be sorted out, then I would support that far more than to sit here and reward those who did take steroids just because there's not enough proof.

I agree that the hall should bve sacred however I have some issues with acusing someone with a single persons testimony.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: tm37
Gwynn and Ripken just got in and they played and exceled in this era.

Ripken entered MLB in '81, Gwynn in '82. McGwire did not arrive until '86 (rookie season '87). The late 80's were the start of the steroid era, but the problem I don't think was prevalent until the mid to late 90's, which was well after the prime of Gwynn & Ripken's careers.

Originally posted by: tm37
Well Joe took money from gamblers. He was banned for Taking money from gamblers and agreeing to fix the world series. You can not prove that he tried to lose but you can not deny that he took money

Shoeless Joe, before the 1919 series, did try to give the money to the White Sox owner and warn him of the fix. But Comiskey would not listen to him. And in the court trial after the series, all charges were dropped against the 8 White Sox players. The commisioner of baseball at the time took it upon himself to ban the players for life to protect the game of baseball.

Originally posted by: tm37
I agree that the hall should bve sacred however I have some issues with acusing someone with a single persons testimony.

If anyone had a problem with what Jose Canseco wrote in his book, they should have sued him. But no one has.

But come on, besides that, there is enough additional circumstantial evidence against McGwire that I would give it a 99% chance he took steroids. And refer to one of my other posts above, either way on the steroids issue, I believe that he is only concerned about his image of "greatness" than to try and do what is best for the game of baseball. That should not be rewarded.

 

[Dritnul]

i think what ur saying is u can take all the steroids u want but u still need to be good enough to be able to make solid contact and field

 

[SoulAssassin]

He lied, people died.

/or maybe that was someone else

 

[Perknose]

After a strong rookie season, McGwire was on a years long downward spiral into the abyss of mediocrity when, suddenly, his head, among other parts of his body, started getting bigger. He then began to his an ungodly number of home runs, late in his career, when historically most power hitters begin to decline. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: Perknose
After a strong rookie season, McGwire was on a years long downward spiral into the abyss of mediocrity when, suddenly, his head, among other parts of his body, started getting bigger. He then began to his an ungodly number of home runs, late in his career, when historically most power hitters begin to decline. Coincidence? I think not.

:thumbsup:

The proof is in his hat size.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: Perknose
After a strong rookie season, McGwire was on a years long downward spiral into the abyss of mediocrity when, suddenly, his head, among other parts of his body, started getting bigger. He then began to his an ungodly number of home runs, late in his career, when historically most power hitters begin to decline. Coincidence? I think not.

:thumbsup:

The proof is in his hat size.

If the hat fits, you must acquit?


I got this weird image in my head ala the OJ trial of McGwire trying to put on the cap from his rookie season.

 

[bennylong]

Bonds will get into the HOF because he was a great player already before he started taking 'roid.

Big Mac had a great rookie year, followed by many years of injury filled years, followed by a huge surge in HR.

 

[shortspanishguy]

Steroids do NOT make your head larger. Steroids will actually stunt growth by prematurely closing growth plates. The only thing that could have led to a bigger hat size would be HGH.

And according to Barry - "My head hasn't grown. I've always been a 7 1-4 to a 7 3-8 my whole career. You can go check."

 

[ballmode]

F big mac


JUICE

 

[bennylong]

Sammy and Big Mac lied to us. They made us think they were some great hero that revised interest in baseball with their HR chase.

American will never forgive those 2 'Roidhead! LIAR! LIAR!

 

[chambersc]

Why he shouldn't:


This isn't the American Gov. where you're innocent 'till proven guilty. This is the modern American media where you're guilty 'till vindicated. Deal with it.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Ilmater
- MLB not doing anything about it was basically saying that it was OK.

No, it doesn't.

I was barely skimming after this. How can you even think that? Ridiculous. Do you really think baseball execs weren't sitting there saying, "Everyone's juiced, and we don't care because it's filling the stands."

The Hall of Fame is something that I believe goes far beyond the statistics and numbers of a player. It also should reflect the integrity of the game. And if the entire 90's era gets thrown out of the Hall because the facts can't be sorted out, then I would support that far more than to sit here and reward those who did take steroids just because there's not enough proof.

And by that measure, he still deserved entry. HE SAVED BASEBALL! I was so angry after the stupid strike that I was in no mood to watch, but I was as caught-up as everyone else in the "chase" that year, and it was great fun. I don't care who cheated and who didn't, baseball is in a different place today because of McGwire (I'm even ashamed of myself for typing that).

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: Slick5150
His numbers aren't even that great even if he WASN'T cheating. All he had were HR numbers, his batting average, runs, on base percentage, and everything else were all average. In fact, most of his numbers were worse than Jose Conseco, who didn't even come close to making it. So unless you're putting Roger Maris in first, he doesn't belong there .. Add in the fact that he was in the roids, and he DEFINITELY doesn't belong there.

He was voted to 12 All-Star teams. No player in MLB history has made that many All-Star teams and not gotten in. Hitting was most of his game, but he did win one Gold Glove at 1st base, so he's not Big Papi awful at it.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: Mucho
He took the 5th at the Congressional inquiry, didn't he?

No, just said he wouldn't talk about his past.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: JS80
those are horrible arguments.

Those are horrible counter arguements.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Ilmater
- MLB not doing anything about it was basically saying that it was OK.

No, it doesn't.

I was barely skimming after this. How can you even think that? Ridiculous. Do you really think baseball execs weren't sitting there saying, "Everyone's juiced, and we don't care because it's filling the stands."

And those baseball execs don't belong in or near the Hall of Fame either.

 

[TheNinja]

Fact: He was a career .263 average hitter - Not that great
Fact: He was a 10 time MVP
Fact: You need to measure his stats against everyone else during that particular time period. It was a time whe people and baseballs where juiced and baseball only cared about bringing the fans back to the game with HRs
Fact: Postseason stats: 42 games, 5 HR, .217 BA - not exaclty stellar


I say he is borderline without even taking the whole steroids talk into play. I do believe that he is good enough to get in b/c of the 10 MVP, #7 on HR list - but I don't believe he is good enough to get in on the first ballot.

 

[Slick5150]

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: Mucho
He took the 5th at the Congressional inquiry, didn't he?

No, just said he wouldn't talk about his past.

"My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family and myself," McGwire said.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: Perknose
After a strong rookie season, McGwire was on a years long downward spiral into the abyss of mediocrity when, suddenly, his head, among other parts of his body, started getting bigger. He then began to his an ungodly number of home runs, late in his career, when historically most power hitters begin to decline. Coincidence? I think not.

Downward spiral????? His "rookie" year (technically his second year, but he played only sparingly his first year), when he hit 49 HRs, he was voted to the All-Star team. He was then elected to 5 more CONSECUTIVE All-Star teams. That is the kind of downward spiral most players DREAM of. He only dropped below 30 homers ONE SEASON in that span, and again, he wasn't very big even if he was "using."

He was elected to the MLB All-Century Team.

How can people say his numbers weren't good enough?

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: Slick5150
His numbers aren't even that great even if he WASN'T cheating. All he had were HR numbers, his batting average, runs, on base percentage, and everything else were all average. In fact, most of his numbers were worse than Jose Conseco, who didn't even come close to making it. So unless you're putting Roger Maris in first, he doesn't belong there .. Add in the fact that he was in the roids, and he DEFINITELY doesn't belong there.

Just out of curiosity, Andruw Jones only had HR's and RBI's yet he almost beat the best player in baseball for the MVP a year ago. Whats up with that? The same thing happened this year as well (Except Ryan Howard actually did manage to get a halfway decent AVG and amount of Runs scored (Though his AVG with RISP or Runners On was pitiful)). (Not meant to discredit Howard, the guys is a great player and a classy player).

-Kevin

You forgot to mention that he was the MVP of his team. What does:

MOST VALUABLE PLAYER mean? Does it mean number? Or does it mean leading his team on the field (Golden Glove), in the batters box (HR/RBI) and as a leader while other players are hurt (Chipper).

Not to mention that half the team was traded and he and Chipper were the only real good players.

Well put. I can't believe he brought up AJ and didn't even bother to comment on his outstanding fielding (one of the best, if not the best defensive CFers in the game) and the mess that was the Braves season.