Why is there so much gay bashing on these boards?

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: InflatableBuddha
I should have clarified...I was referring to bigotry and discrimination IRL (where codes and institutions can make the discrimination less obvious). As I mentioned, some people say the most bigoted things on these forums that they wouldn't dare to in real life, so it's much more obvious.

I'm not so sure if people censor themselves as well as you or they think. Often, simple constructions have oppressive meanings. Consider phrases like, "I got fucked," or more specifically, "I got fucked in the ass," as metaphors of disapproval. Hetero men like to fuck women, and many like to fuck women in the ass, but to get fucked is to be to be violated at the highest level. This implicitly defines "fuck" as "penetrate," and invokes essentialism, that is, other people should enjoy what I hate. This essentialim is obviously false; women, and gay and bisexual men do not enjoy anal penetration any more than straight men. It is just more acceptable for us to enjoy it.

Most people, progressives included, will see nothing wrong with this metaphor, and will call me oversensitive when I point it out. But I wonder, how can we achieve equality when our very speech patterns are filled with misogyny and homophobia (and ableism, racism, classism, etc.)?

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
...
OK, I'm curious: to whom do you pray?

Originally posted by: seemingly random
Quit trying to act like christians are special. It's any religion based on superstition.

To pray doesn't necessarily imply calling up a diety or idol to which you bow to. Merriam-webster has two definitions for pray. One is "to make a request in a humble manner". It was thusly used when referring to felix's cleverness.

Similarly, faith doesn't necessarily imply religion - "I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow" or "I have faith that my wife will not sleep with the co-worker that she is traveling with".

I'm glad you brought down the quote since I would like to add to it. It's any religion based on superstition or one that requires a suspension of disbelief.

Thanks.

 

[alkemyst]

dude, hush; they don't know about the sekrit azz sechs you have going.

you do take it like a champ though :thumbsup:

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: QueBert

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: QueBert
I think many just chose to ignore it or use the "stereotypes exist for a reason, so if I say black people mug people I'm not being racist" excuse.

stating a fact is not racist

1) An asian guy mugged me today = not racist
2) Asian guys are dangerous = racist

But people on here use stereotypes as a crutch to get away with being a bigot. They can always fall back on the "stereotypes are generally true" That doesn't mean they should spout shit off. This place is full of racist people, the best are the ones who play it off and act like they're not. I'd have more respect if they stopped hiding behind bullshit and just say "fuck it I hate [insert type of people]" instead of used codes and trying to be slick about it.

I think QueBert is getting at a larger point that to be treated as an individual when you mess up is a privilege (of race, class, gender, sexuality, disability status, etc.). If a woman makes an illegal turn, you might exclaim, "Damn woman driver!" when you wouldn't have said, "Damn man driver!" if a man had done the same thing. If a poor person steals, you would think it expected, but if a rich person steals, you would be surprised. Some street kid's misdeeds reflect on every street kid, but a white-collar criminal doesn't have much of an effect on the perceptions of other professionals.

The "Craigslist Killer" was repeatedly called a "normal" or "average" guy. He was obviously messed up in the head, and his crimes do not reflect his parents' abilities or the values of his community. When have you ever heard a homicidal person of color referred to this way?

 

[SilentZero]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: QueBert

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: QueBert
I think many just chose to ignore it or use the "stereotypes exist for a reason, so if I say black people mug people I'm not being racist" excuse.

stating a fact is not racist

1) An asian guy mugged me today = not racist
2) Asian guys are dangerous = racist

But people on here use stereotypes as a crutch to get away with being a bigot. They can always fall back on the "stereotypes are generally true" That doesn't mean they should spout shit off. This place is full of racist people, the best are the ones who play it off and act like they're not. I'd have more respect if they stopped hiding behind bullshit and just say "fuck it I hate [insert type of people]" instead of used codes and trying to be slick about it.

I think QueBert is getting at a larger point that to be treated as an individual when you mess up is a privilege (of race, class, gender, sexuality, disability status, etc.). If a woman makes an illegal turn, you might exclaim, "Damn woman driver!" when you wouldn't have said, "Damn man driver!" if a man had done the same thing. If a poor person steals, you would think it expected, but if a rich person commits steals, you would be surprised. Some street kid's misdeeds reflect on every street kid, but a white-collar criminal doesn't have much of an effect on the perceptions of other professionals.

The "Craigslist Killer" was repeatedly called a "normal" or "average" guy. He was obviously messed up in the head, and his crimes do not reflect his parents' abilities or the values of his community. When have you ever heard a homicidal person of color referred to this way?

OJ!

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: SilentZero

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: QueBert

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: QueBert
I think many just chose to ignore it or use the "stereotypes exist for a reason, so if I say black people mug people I'm not being racist" excuse.

stating a fact is not racist

1) An asian guy mugged me today = not racist
2) Asian guys are dangerous = racist

But people on here use stereotypes as a crutch to get away with being a bigot. They can always fall back on the "stereotypes are generally true" That doesn't mean they should spout shit off. This place is full of racist people, the best are the ones who play it off and act like they're not. I'd have more respect if they stopped hiding behind bullshit and just say "fuck it I hate [insert type of people]" instead of used codes and trying to be slick about it.

I think QueBert is getting at a larger point that to be treated as an individual when you mess up is a privilege (of race, class, gender, sexuality, disability status, etc.). If a woman makes an illegal turn, you might exclaim, "Damn woman driver!" when you wouldn't have said, "Damn man driver!" if a man had done the same thing. If a poor person steals, you would think it expected, but if a rich person commits steals, you would be surprised. Some street kid's misdeeds reflect on every street kid, but a white-collar criminal doesn't have much of an effect on the perceptions of other professionals.

The "Craigslist Killer" was repeatedly called a "normal" or "average" guy. He was obviously messed up in the head, and his crimes do not reflect his parents' abilities or the values of his community. When have you ever heard a homicidal person of color referred to this way?

OJ!

Sorry, I should have added, "by white people," to the end of my post.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: n yusef
... If a woman makes an illegal turn, you might exclaim, "Damn woman driver!" when you wouldn't have said, "Damn man driver!" if a man had done the same thing. If a poor person steals, you would think it expected, but if a rich person commits steals, you would be surprised. Some street kid's misdeeds reflect on every street kid, but a white-collar criminal doesn't have much of an effect on the perceptions of other professionals.
...

From what you have revealed about yourself, you are a gay, black man. You appear to pretty smart and well educated. Therefore, all gay, black men are smart and well educated.

Damn, I hate when people generalize. :laugh:

 

[QueBert]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: QueBert

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: QueBert
I think many just chose to ignore it or use the "stereotypes exist for a reason, so if I say black people mug people I'm not being racist" excuse.

stating a fact is not racist

1) An asian guy mugged me today = not racist
2) Asian guys are dangerous = racist

But people on here use stereotypes as a crutch to get away with being a bigot. They can always fall back on the "stereotypes are generally true" That doesn't mean they should spout shit off. This place is full of racist people, the best are the ones who play it off and act like they're not. I'd have more respect if they stopped hiding behind bullshit and just say "fuck it I hate [insert type of people]" instead of used codes and trying to be slick about it.

I think QueBert is getting at a larger point that to be treated as an individual when you mess up is a privilege (of race, class, gender, sexuality, disability status, etc.). If a woman makes an illegal turn, you might exclaim, "Damn woman driver!" when you wouldn't have said, "Damn man driver!" if a man had done the same thing. If a poor person steals, you would think it expected, but if a rich person commits steals, you would be surprised. Some street kid's misdeeds reflect on every street kid, but a white-collar criminal doesn't have much of an effect on the perceptions of other professionals.

The "Craigslist Killer" was repeatedly called a "normal" or "average" guy. He was obviously messed up in the head, and his crimes do not reflect his parents' abilities or the values of his community. When have you ever heard a homicidal person of color referred to this way?

you hit the nail on the head, too many times have I seen replies to murder threads with somebody saying "I don't have to read the newspaper article to know what racer the murder was" Thinking it, and saying it are 2 different things. If the people who talk like that on here do it in real life too. I hope they're smart enough to know most people around them will view them as a racist, not as a person who is simply explaining what is known due to a stereotype.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
...
OK, I'm curious: to whom do you pray?

Originally posted by: seemingly random
Quit trying to act like christians are special. It's any religion based on superstition.

To pray doesn't necessarily imply calling up a diety or idol to which you bow to. Merriam-webster has two definitions for pray. One is "to make a request in a humble manner". It was thusly used when referring to felix's cleverness.

Similarly, faith doesn't necessarily imply religion - "I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow" or "I have faith that my wife will not sleep with the co-worker that she is traveling with".

I'm glad you brought down the quote since I would like to add to it. It's any religion based on superstition or one that requires a suspension of disbelief.

Thanks.

OK.

Of whom (or Whom) are you making the "humble" request?

RE: your point about "faith" - I totally agree. I see that many of the ATOT Atheistic proselytizers aggressively denounce "faith", as though that were something solely (or should that be "soully?") reserved for those who do not partake of the Atheist religion. As one who cannot suspend disbelief to the point of denying God, I am glad we have this common ground.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
...
Of whom (or Whom) are you making the "humble" request?

Some indescribable amorphous entity or concept. Sorry for being vague. I assure you that it's not a supernatural god-like creature. Although, there have been a number of times I've prayed to the porcelain god - to no avail.

RE: your point about "faith" - I totally agree. I see that many of the ATOT Atheistic proselytizers aggressively denounce "faith", as though that were something solely (or should that be "soully?") reserved for those who do not partake of the Atheist religion.

For the record, I'm not an atheist. I would label myself as agnostic. In my view, atheism is just as ridiculous as believing in a god (or gods). Neither can be sure. If forced to choose between the two endpoints, atheism seems the way to go. The possibility that some supernatural force would cause or encourage in any way the pain and suffering of the inhabitants of this world is mind boggling.

As one who cannot suspend disbelief to the point of denying God, I am glad we have this common ground.

Clever (and I mean that sincerely). Maybe we don't have the same understanding of suspension of disbelief. As a non-religious example, those that still believed that president bush is an honest person would have to suspend their disbelief after hearing how he lied about there being wmd's in iraq.

---

So, why can't we all just get along? Because there's always going to be someone who wants what another has and is willing to commit atrocities to get it using any cover story available - one of which is religion.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: onlyCOpunk
I just find it disgusting that in the year 2009 people would openly say prejudice things in a public forum.

Granted it's their own opinion and belief, and I suppose the internet is a major outlet since no one would ever say much of the hateful things they do in person so....

dude, this is a PUBLIC INTERNET FORUM...what do you expect?

 

[2soX]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: onlyCOpunk
I just find it disgusting that in the year 2009 people would openly say prejudice things in a public forum.

Granted it's their own opinion and belief, and I suppose the internet is a major outlet since no one would ever say much of the hateful things they do in person so....

dude, this is a PUBLIC INTERNET FORUM...what do you expect?

AOL?

 

[irishScott]

All half-Asian fags have small dicks!

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
...
Of whom (or Whom) are you making the "humble" request?

Some indescribable amorphous entity or concept. Sorry for being vague. I assure you that it's not a supernatural god-like creature. Although, there have been a number of times I've prayed to the porcelain god - to no avail.

RE: your point about "faith" - I totally agree. I see that many of the ATOT Atheistic proselytizers aggressively denounce "faith", as though that were something solely (or should that be "soully?") reserved for those who do not partake of the Atheist religion.

For the record, I'm not an atheist. I would label myself as agnostic. In my view, atheism is just as ridiculous as believing in a god (or gods). Neither can be sure. If forced to choose between the two endpoints, atheism seems the way to go. The possibility that some supernatural force would cause or encourage in any way the pain and suffering of the inhabitants of this world is mind boggling.

As one who cannot suspend disbelief to the point of denying God, I am glad we have this common ground.

Clever (and I mean that sincerely). Maybe we don't have the same understanding of suspension of disbelief. As a non-religious example, those that still believed that president bush is an honest person would have to suspend their disbelief after hearing how he lied about there being wmd's in iraq.

---

So, why can't we all just get along? Because there's always going to be someone who wants what another has and is willing to commit atrocities to get it using any cover story available - one of which is religion.

I simply have to give you a :beer: for your replies!

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: hanoverphist

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
I don't bash gays. Most of them fuckers know how to fight.

LOL that made me laff

know why gays spend so much time at the gym? it's so we can kick your asses

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: QueBert
racism is perfectly okay here, I see it all the time. How many threads are there about a crime that happened and one of the first responses will be

"I don't even need to read the article to know what kind of person it was" those threads are never dealt with here unless it turns into a huge troll fest.

I should take that back, against Mexicans & Blacks it's fine. I made a semi off color comment about an Asian once and got 4 PM's from people who acted like I was worse than Hitler. I don't think racism against whites or Asians is acceptable here.

I see plenty of posts about rednecks and evil white corporations. I think everyone should be free game.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: QueBert
racism is perfectly okay here, I see it all the time. How many threads are there about a crime that happened and one of the first responses will be

"I don't even need to read the article to know what kind of person it was" those threads are never dealt with here unless it turns into a huge troll fest.

I should take that back, against Mexicans & Blacks it's fine. I made a semi off color comment about an Asian once and got 4 PM's from people who acted like I was worse than Hitler. I don't think racism against whites or Asians is acceptable here.

I see plenty of posts about rednecks and evil white corporations. I think everyone should be free game.

Is everyone free [sic] game? Are jokes about everyone funny? I don't think so.

I can't think of any jokes about heterosexuals. Are jokes about white people (not specific groups of white people like Rednecks, but whites as a whole) funny? More importantly, are they funny to this demographic? What about jokes about men? If these jokes are funny, do they carry the same weight as jokes from the mainstream about sub-cultures?

On a forum like this, with a majority of straight white men, some straight Asian men and only a handful of other people, is carte blanche regarding identity-based jokes a good idea? To me, that sounds like the only way to make this community less welcoming and inclusive than it already is.

If you've ever wondered why marginalized groups form their own spaces (think women's groups, gay bars, Asian student unions), maybe you should analyze your unwelcoming behavior.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: Leros

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: Leros
Racism is no longer acceptable, so the ignorant people need something to complain about.

Bullshit. Mexicans and Middle Easterners get more shit on this forum than anyone.

Don't forget black people. Some of it is in jest, but a lot of it isn't.

I thought Californians got the most shit?

Don't forget about the Christians. Lots of religion bashing on ATOT.

Is it wrong to bash a persons' religion though? That's their choice. You can insult people's choices. Obviously, being a dick about it isn't cool though.

Skin color and nationality aren't choices, so its a bit different.

Michael Jackson disagrees :evil:

 

[QueBert]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: QueBert
racism is perfectly okay here, I see it all the time. How many threads are there about a crime that happened and one of the first responses will be

"I don't even need to read the article to know what kind of person it was" those threads are never dealt with here unless it turns into a huge troll fest.

I should take that back, against Mexicans & Blacks it's fine. I made a semi off color comment about an Asian once and got 4 PM's from people who acted like I was worse than Hitler. I don't think racism against whites or Asians is acceptable here.

I see plenty of posts about rednecks and evil white corporations. I think everyone should be free game.

rednecks make up a small portion of white people, if I tell a Redneck joke the only person who understandably might get upset would be a Redneck. If I tell a N joke, it's not aimed at a small portion of black people but all of them blindly. n yusef has a degree and is obviously well spoken and educated. So the stereotypes that so many ATOTers claim are "true true true!" about blacks probably aren't true for him.

I for one have never been offended by a Redneck joke, because I'm not a redneck.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: n yusef
...
Is everyone free [sic] game? Are jokes about everyone funny? I don't think so.

They should be. Everyone should be able to laugh at themselves.

I can't think of any jokes about heterosexuals.

I've heard some het jokes. I know that gays sometimes refer to them as breeders. When I first heard this, I laughed.

Are jokes about white people (not specific groups of white people like Rednecks, but whites as a whole) funny?

I can't think of a lot. I imagine there are a few about white skin in the sun.

More importantly, are they funny to this demographic?

Who gives a shit if people can't take a joke - as long as it's only a joke.

What about jokes about men?

Please. Go to any womens gathering. Check out detergent tv advertisements - men are portrayed as idiots.

If these jokes are funny, do they carry the same weight as jokes from the mainstream about sub-cultures?

This requires too much thought and research. Do you have an answer?

On a forum like this, with a majority of straight white men, some straight Asian men and only a handful of other people,

There you go making assumptions again. If I had to guess, it's mostly populated with boys. (Oh my, did I just make a man joke?)

is carte blanche regarding identity-based jokes a good idea? To me, that sounds like the only way to make this community less welcoming and inclusive than it already is.

You can't be a pussy and fully participate here.

If you've ever wondered why marginalized groups form their own spaces (think women's groups, gay bars, Asian student unions), maybe you should analyze your unwelcoming behavior.

It's this that made me respond. I've been exposed to every one of these groups (and many others) and they all develop their own warped sense of humor and bias. Maybe we humans are just incorrigible.

 

[zerogear]

Originally posted by: onlyCOpunk
I just find it disgusting that in the year 2009 people would openly say prejudice things in a public forum.

Granted it's their own opinion and belief, and I suppose the internet is a major outlet since no one would ever say much of the hateful things they do in person so....

I would rather say it out loud than have it fester inside me

If you don't like it, you're welcome to leave at any time.

 

[InflatableBuddha]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: InflatableBuddha
I should have clarified...I was referring to bigotry and discrimination IRL (where codes and institutions can make the discrimination less obvious). As I mentioned, some people say the most bigoted things on these forums that they wouldn't dare to in real life, so it's much more obvious.

I'm not so sure if people censor themselves as well as you or they think. Often, simple constructions have oppressive meanings. Consider phrases like, "I got fucked," or more specifically, "I got fucked in the ass," as metaphors of disapproval. Hetero men like to fuck women, and many like to fuck women in the ass, but to get fucked is to be to be violated at the highest level. This implicitly defines "fuck" as "penetrate," and invokes essentialism, that is, other people should enjoy what I hate. This essentialim is obviously false; women, and gay and bisexual men do not enjoy anal penetration any more than straight men. It is just more acceptable for us to enjoy it.

Most people, progressives included, will see nothing wrong with this metaphor, and will call me oversensitive when I point it out. But I wonder, how can we achieve equality when our very speech patterns are filled with misogyny and homophobia (and ableism, racism, classism, etc.)?

Absolutely; you're talking about an expression of control through sexualized language - men like to do the fucking, but not be fucked. They want to be in control over women and other men.

I totally understand the discrimination coded in those expression, but the very fact that you had to write an explanation of the meaning behind these expressions demonstrates my point that discriminatory language is coded and obscured for the general public. How many people think they're being discriminatory when they say "I got fucked over for that raise at work"?

As another example, consider the phrase "covering your ass". Lawyers and the general public use it all the time. It's a homophobic phrase, implying that anal sex is not only undesirable but damaging, so you must protect yourself from it. But most people use it interchangeably with less offensive phrases such as "covering your bases" as they perceive that it only implies risk mitigation or harm prevention.

 

[SampSon]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: QueBert
racism is perfectly okay here, I see it all the time. How many threads are there about a crime that happened and one of the first responses will be

"I don't even need to read the article to know what kind of person it was" those threads are never dealt with here unless it turns into a huge troll fest.

I should take that back, against Mexicans & Blacks it's fine. I made a semi off color comment about an Asian once and got 4 PM's from people who acted like I was worse than Hitler. I don't think racism against whites or Asians is acceptable here.

I see plenty of posts about rednecks and evil white corporations. I think everyone should be free game.

Is everyone free [sic] game? Are jokes about everyone funny? I don't think so.

I can't think of any jokes about heterosexuals. Are jokes about white people (not specific groups of white people like Rednecks, but whites as a whole) funny? More importantly, are they funny to this demographic? What about jokes about men? If these jokes are funny, do they carry the same weight as jokes from the mainstream about sub-cultures?

On a forum like this, with a majority of straight white men, some straight Asian men and only a handful of other people, is carte blanche regarding identity-based jokes a good idea? To me, that sounds like the only way to make this community less welcoming and inclusive than it already is.

If you've ever wondered why marginalized groups form their own spaces (think women's groups, gay bars, Asian student unions), maybe you should analyze your unwelcoming behavior.

There are heterosexual jokes and generic jokes about "white people" out there. Plenty of them. Is your point that not many jokes start with "did you hear about the white man who.." or "a white guy walks into a bar..."?

Most jokes, if not all, ARE BASED on identity, that's the whole point. What would be the point of jokes if they weren't geared at pointing out others differences?

Groups of people form their own spaces because they gather together around their similarities of culture, character, creed and color. They identify with each other so they tend to gravitate towards each other. Why would that be construed as a negative? Groups of people gathering due to their similarities has less to do with others not being welcoming as it has to do with these people simply being more homogeneous.

All people are not equal.

 

[guyver01]

This forum (and internet forums in general) are a microcosom of reality. What happens in the real world will inevitably find its way to forums. The only thing that can prevent it from happening is imposing some form of totalianarinism on the populace. Its either all permitted or all banned.

Unfortunately since the mods are human, you're gonna have instances where some is let thru and some is banned. And the inevitable cries of favoitism when someone isn't banned for 'bashing'.

There's no way to win this war.

The only way to avoid it... is not read threads that are ultimately going to be about that which you do not like.

 

[judasmachine]

It's still allowed socially. "That's so ghai, and you're a f@g." This all flies just about anywhere these days. Most don't mean anything by it, but i imagine it's still kind of demeaning to some.

That is my long answer.

This is my short answer:

Insecurity.