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Why is there controversy over Edwards being a trial lawyer?

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So you're going to criticize Edwards for use of "science" when the article you quote talks about the latest research in 2003 when the trail was in 1985??
The worldnetdaily article I quoted, which was not a worldnetdaily article, and failed to link because the excerpt I quoted identifies the source of the article no less than four different times (what are you having trouble refuting the content of the article so your only hope is to attack the source??) clearly states that:
The cause of cerebral palsy has been debated since the 19th century. Some medical studies dating back to at least the 1980s asserted that doctors could do very little to cause cerebral palsy during the birthing process.
and that:
However, Olson believes trial lawyers "have been getting away with an awful lot in cerebral palsy litigation," by excluding certain scientific evidence.

"[Trial lawyers] have been cashing in on cases where the doctor's conduct probably did not make any difference at all -- cases where the child was doomed to this condition based on things that happened before they ever got to the delivery room," Olson said.
Taken together....there never has been a scientific consensus supporting a strong correlation between cerebral palsy and physician mistakes or negligence.

What Olsen is saying, is that trial lawyers have successfully been convincing juries to make unsubstantiated leaps from 'possibility' to 'probability' by using emotional manipulation to build a bridge between the two in order to compensate for their lack of scientific or medical evidence.
 
Folks who have some dislike for lawyers should look at the reality of the profession.

An attorney is simply a conduit between the aggrieved party(ies) and the source of that condition under the rules of and within the confines of the Court House and its Rule of Law umbrella. We have an adversarial system here in the good ole US of A. The Rule of Law depends on having expertise resident on both sides of the issue. One can proceed in Pro Se in Civil or Criminal litigation even if they don't have the education but, they proceed at their own peril.
The most beloved profession IMO is the medical profession. They are the conduit between the patient and the cure. The difference is, IMO, the adversary in the medical profession is disease and in the legal profession the adversary is the State or another person (or entity). In each case, one values the professional rendering service on their behalf. The lawyer, however, has that other person or entity hating him while the MD has but the distaste of disease directed at him. Imagine how really upset Polio is with the researchers that developed the 'cure'.

When you think of Edwards see him as a MD/PhD Researcher hoping to cure the disease of War or Poverty or what ever using the tools HE was enabled with. Then get on about the methodology one espouses versus the other. I'd venture Bush too may wish to end poverty and war... "HOW" is the issue.
 
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Tort reform is a crock! Judges just need to be more responsible.

And juries.

What's your opinion on moving toward, say, professional juries?


That could be a good point.
If cases are truly meritless, judges should be throwing them out of court before it gets to a trial.

I guess that I thought that the job of a jury is to decide if the charges are correct. I did not realize that juries sentence the defendant too.

And determine punitive and compensatory damages.
 
If a Surgeon loses usage of his 'cutting' hand through the neglegence of another should his 'award' be the same as the Accountant who suffers the same loss? I think not.
Juries are the finders of Fact. But, are all juries peers? Or is peers meant to mean something else? I think it does. I think it is meant to be an impartial group assembled to render an impartial finding as it applies to the issues presented to it. It is also a citizen's duty. Professional juries IMO are not an option.
Some sort of schedule of Awards like in Criminal law should be implemented. This should consider all the variances that may be present in life's reality.
 
Originally posted by: piasabird
Clinton was a lawyer, Hilary was a lawyer. We have had enough Lawyers.

Better than having a Yale graduate that was rejected by the University of Texas Law School. (This is Bush, btw)
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Tort reform is a crock! Judges just need to be more responsible.

And juries.

What's your opinion on moving toward, say, professional juries?


That could be a good point.
If cases are truly meritless, judges should be throwing them out of court before it gets to a trial.

I guess that I thought that the job of a jury is to decide if the charges are correct. I did not realize that juries sentence the defendant too.

And determine punitive and compensatory damages.

Wow, that's really bad 'cause juries are allowed to decide that a law is inadequete for the situation (though judges don't tell them that).

You've changed my mind Conjur. Up to now, I've always thought that limiting liability is just cop out that prevents legal repercussions for unethical behavior(if the fine is cheap enough, we'll risk doing it). But if you take a group of people with no contextual understanding of a problem and ask them to decide it's wieght, you are just asking for trouble.
 
Originally posted by: thuper
Originally posted by: piasabird
Clinton was a lawyer, Hilary was a lawyer. We have had enough Lawyers.

Better than having a Yale graduate that was rejected by the University of Texas Law School. (This is Bush, btw)


...who, not that. 🙂


"Better than having a Yale graduate who was rejected...sort of makes your point moot, 'eh? 🙂
 
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Tort reform is a crock! Judges just need to be more responsible.

And juries.

What's your opinion on moving toward, say, professional juries?


That could be a good point.
If cases are truly meritless, judges should be throwing them out of court before it gets to a trial.

I guess that I thought that the job of a jury is to decide if the charges are correct. I did not realize that juries sentence the defendant too.

And determine punitive and compensatory damages.

Wow, that's really bad 'cause juries are allowed to decide that a law is inadequete for the situation (though judges don't tell them that).

You've changed my mind Conjur. Up to now, I've always thought that limiting liability is just cop out that prevents legal repercussions for unethical behavior(if the fine is cheap enough, we'll risk doing it). But if you take a group of people with no contextual understanding of a problem and ask them to decide it's wieght, you are just asking for trouble.

Myself, I have no problem with limiting awards and I think it really needs to be done. There are cases, though, where a large punitive award is justified such as a product liability case that has cost lives or injured many.
 
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: thuper
Originally posted by: piasabird
Clinton was a lawyer, Hilary was a lawyer. We have had enough Lawyers.

Better than having a Yale graduate that was rejected by the University of Texas Law School. (This is Bush, btw)


...who, not that. 🙂


"Better than having a Yale graduate who was rejected...sort of makes your point moot, 'eh? 🙂

Back in Brooklyn, the seat of all proper English usage we'd use 'who' when we also had a specific person preceding the 'who'. And, we'd use 'that' when we had a thing or maybe even a group of people preceding it (in the context of the half quote above). In this case, I'd call 'A Yale graduate' a thing thus allowing the use of 'that'.
In California... we'd say, "Yale or UT what difference does that make, it ain't Stanford."
 
Originally posted by: Doboji
Oh man you right-wingers are so lame in your criticism of Edwards. He was a lawyer?... so WHAT?... Lord knows politicians are truth telling saints, who never need to strong arm, or manipulate in order to accomplish what they need done. If anything... I worry whether Edwards has ENOUGH experience being a bastard to be the master bastard. I know Bush certainly didnt... I don't want a nice honorable president, I want a president who will kick scratch and bite to get things done.

-Max

hey no one said politicians are saints... but throwing a personal injury lawyer in there is certainly not improving that gene pool...
 
Originally posted by: DeeKnow
Originally posted by: Doboji
Oh man you right-wingers are so lame in your criticism of Edwards. He was a lawyer?... so WHAT?... Lord knows politicians are truth telling saints, who never need to strong arm, or manipulate in order to accomplish what they need done. If anything... I worry whether Edwards has ENOUGH experience being a bastard to be the master bastard. I know Bush certainly didnt... I don't want a nice honorable president, I want a president who will kick scratch and bite to get things done.

-Max

hey no one said politicians are saints... but throwing a personal injury lawyer in there is certainly not improving that gene pool...

hehehehe, so to create a herd of proper baby politicians we should clone the genes of the few existing decent grown up politicians or maybe exhume the remains of the one or two others meeting the 'decent' criteria. 🙂

Why ain't the folks or entities who provide the need for Personal Injury Lawyers the bad guys?
 
I'm intrigued by these complaints about lawyers and their pay. Some of the biggest criticizers seem to be the defenders of free market capitalism. Are they now indicating that the free market of lawyers offering their services for fees set between two private parties is undesirable?

There's lots of complaints, what are the solutions? Voluntary fee caps? Governmental market regulation? Maybe we could just get rid of lawyers and have judges decide on cases, with no juries. Or just do away with the courts all together and lock every do ne'er gooder double parker away for ever.

Zephyr
 
Originally posted by: tcsenter
So you're going to criticize Edwards for use of "science" when the article you quote talks about the latest research in 2003 when the trail was in 1985??
The worldnetdaily article I quoted, which was not a worldnetdaily article, and failed to link because the excerpt I quoted identifies the source of the article no less than four different times (what are you having trouble refuting the content of the article so your only hope is to attack the source??) clearly states that:
The cause of cerebral palsy has been debated since the 19th century. Some medical studies dating back to at least the 1980s asserted that doctors could do very little to cause cerebral palsy during the birthing process.
and that:
However, Olson believes trial lawyers "have been getting away with an awful lot in cerebral palsy litigation," by excluding certain scientific evidence.

"[Trial lawyers] have been cashing in on cases where the doctor's conduct probably did not make any difference at all -- cases where the child was doomed to this condition based on things that happened before they ever got to the delivery room," Olson said.
Taken together....there never has been a scientific consensus supporting a strong correlation between cerebral palsy and physician mistakes or negligence.

What Olsen is saying, is that trial lawyers have successfully been convincing juries to make unsubstantiated leaps from 'possibility' to 'probability' by using emotional manipulation to build a bridge between the two in order to compensate for their lack of scientific or medical evidence.

Would you advocate the notion then that 'peers' be better defined to mean 'peers' and populate a jury hearing a case with highly technological issues with citizens meeting the criteria necessary to render a verdict based on a more scientific approach? I'd agree with that, I think. Emotion cannot change the nature of a fact. Emotion can only disregard the reality of a fact.
 
Wow . . . this is going nowhere fast.

This statement is absolutely true . . .
Taken together....there never has been a scientific consensus supporting a strong correlation between cerebral palsy and physician mistakes or negligence.

. . . but it has essentially no bearing on the judgment reached in the case Edwards' worked in Charlotte. Why you may ask? Well it's that magic word "consensus". The reason why there's no consensus for a strong correlation is b/c consensus for strong correlations are often very difficult with relatively low frequency events that have multiple etiologies (annual incidence is under 5k).


National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke
Despite Freud's observation, the belief that birth complications cause most cases of cerebral palsy was widespread among physicians, families, and even medical researchers until very recently. In the 1980s, however, scientists analyzed extensive data from a government study of more than 35,000 births and were surprised to discover that such complications account for only a fraction of cases -- probably less than 10 percent. In most cases of cerebral palsy, no cause of the factors explored could be found. These findings from the NINDS perinatal study have profoundly altered medical theories about cerebral palsy and have spurred today's researchers to explore alternative causes.
Does that mean the Edwards case was frivolous or medically invalid? Of course not. It just means the burden of proof was on him if the case occurred in the 1990s but in the 1980s the burden was on the physician/hospital.

The United Cerebral Palsy Associations estimate that more than 500,000 Americans have cerebral palsy. Despite advances in preventing and treating certain causes of cerebral palsy, the number of children and adults it affects has remained essentially unchanged or perhaps risen slightly over the past 30 years.

Cerebral palsy is not one disease with a single cause, like chicken pox or measles. It is a group of disorders with similar problems in control of movement, but probably with different causes. When physicians try to uncover the cause of cerebral palsy in an individual child, they look at the form of cerebral palsy, the mother's and child's medical history, and onset of the disorder.

Congenital cerebral palsy, on the other hand, is present at birth, although it may not be detected for months. In most cases, the cause of congenital cerebral palsy is unknown. Thanks to research, however, scientists have pinpointed some specific events during pregnancy or around the time of birth that can damage motor centers in the developing brain. Some of these causes of congenital cerebral palsy include:

Infections during pregnancy. German measles, or rubella, is caused by a virus that can infect pregnant women and, therefore, the fetus in the uterus, to cause damage to the developing nervous system. Other infections that can cause brain injury in the developing fetus include cytomegalovirus and toxoplasmosis. There is relatively recent evidence that placental and perhaps other maternal infection can be associated with cerebral palsy.
Getting an infection is typically the mother's fault . . . failure to treat it would be the obstetrician.

Rh incompatibility. In this blood condition, the mother's body produces immune cells called antibodies that destroy the fetus's blood cells, leading to a form of jaundice in the newborn.
Rh-typing is a physician's responsibility.

Severe oxygen shortage in the brain or trauma to the head during labor and delivery. A significant proportion of babies with this type of brain damage die, and others may develop cerebral palsy, which is then often accompanied by mental impairment and seizures.
Another physician responsibity either through poor preparation (unaware of pathway-passenger discord) or improper response to labor difficulty.

In the past, physicians and scientists attributed most cases of cerebral palsy to asphyxia or other complications during birth if they could not identify another cause. However, extensive research by NINDS scientists and others has shown that very few babies who experience asphyxia during birth develop encephalopathy soon after birth. Research also shows that a large proportion of babies who experience asphyxia do not grow up to have cerebral palsy or other neurological disorders. Birth complications including asphyxia are now estimated to account for about 6 percent of congenital cerebral palsy cases.

Is Edwards fortunate this trial came in 1985 instead of 1995 . . . definitely. But only the facts of that case would determine if it was justified. All we really know is that he convinced the jury that the physician/hospital did something(s) wrong. But it's not like the defense didn't argue a case at all.
 
Originally posted by: tcsenter
So you're going to criticize Edwards for use of "science" when the article you quote talks about the latest research in 2003 when the trail was in 1985??
The worldnetdaily article I quoted, which was not a worldnetdaily article, and failed to link because the excerpt I quoted identifies the source of the article no less than four different times (what are you having trouble refuting the content of the article so your only hope is to attack the source??) clearly states that:
The cause of cerebral palsy has been debated since the 19th century. Some medical studies dating back to at least the 1980s asserted that doctors could do very little to cause cerebral palsy during the birthing process.
and that:
However, Olson believes trial lawyers "have been getting away with an awful lot in cerebral palsy litigation," by excluding certain scientific evidence.

"[Trial lawyers] have been cashing in on cases where the doctor's conduct probably did not make any difference at all -- cases where the child was doomed to this condition based on things that happened before they ever got to the delivery room," Olson said.
Taken together....there never has been a scientific consensus supporting a strong correlation between cerebral palsy and physician mistakes or negligence.

What Olsen is saying, is that trial lawyers have successfully been convincing juries to make unsubstantiated leaps from 'possibility' to 'probability' by using emotional manipulation to build a bridge between the two in order to compensate for their lack of scientific or medical evidence.

You're right, the worldnetdaily article I was talking about is here and is clearly taken from the article you quoted. The article you quoted (link) is from CNSNews.com the news front of the right wing media watchdog group Media Research Center (now isn't that a giant conflict of interest?? How could a media watchdog group have a "news" outlet themselves?? (whose motto is: The right news. Right now.)) So this article features as it sources an insurance company lawyer and not one but two fellows from the Manhattan Institute, a right wing think tank, and the president of the right wing John Locke foundation. And these guys don't have any blatant agenda on this issue, now do they??

Notice how the doctors they quote do nothing to support that thesis of the article that Edwards used "junk science". In fact nowhere in the article is it stated as to how Edwards used "junk science" in his trials or that there was some great medical controversy Edwards exploited. We have a few "legal experts" (who just happen to be associated with conservative thinktanks) who give their opinion and that's the only support the article offers. And I'm not trying to say right wing = bad, I'm just pointing out that the source of the article as well as the sources the article cites all happen to be very close ideologically and they all just happen to have the same view on trial lawyers and medial malpractice.

In short, this is hack journalism from a right wing media watchdog group's news front citing fellows at right wing thinktanks who have obvious agendas that just happens to get published during the primaries. This hit piece then gets picked up at other hack right wing news orgs like worldnetdaily who just happen (surprise surprise!) to recycle the story right after Edwards becomes the VP pick. Its one big echo chamber.
 
In short, this is hack journalism from a right wing media watchdog group's news front citing fellows at right wing thinktanks who have obvious agendas that just happens to get published during the primaries. This hit piece then gets picked up at other hack right wing news orgs like worldnetdaily who just happen (surprise surprise!) to recycle the story right after Edwards becomes the VP pick. Its one big echo chamber.
Notice the response by BaliBabyDoc, who is addressing the content of the article. Compare that with your response addressing the source of the article and completely avoiding its content.

Now which of them there replies is indicative of a college graduate and which could be managed by the average high school drop-out? Or do you need help answering that, too?
 
It's a false controversy. Pure BS manufactured to manipulate the simple.

Hello... can anyone say "Mel Martinez"?

Very sad, to see such ugliness.
 
Originally posted by: tcsenter
In short, this is hack journalism from a right wing media watchdog group's news front citing fellows at right wing thinktanks who have obvious agendas that just happens to get published during the primaries. This hit piece then gets picked up at other hack right wing news orgs like worldnetdaily who just happen (surprise surprise!) to recycle the story right after Edwards becomes the VP pick. Its one big echo chamber.
Notice the response by BaliBabyDoc, who is addressing the content of the article. Compare that with your response addressing the source of the article and completely avoiding its content.

Now which of them there replies is indicative of a college graduate and which could be managed by the average high school drop-out? Or do you need help answering that, too?

Perhaps you missed this whole portion:
Notice how the doctors they quote do nothing to support that thesis of the article that Edwards used "junk science". In fact nowhere in the article is it stated as to how Edwards used "junk science" in his trials or that there was some great medical controversy Edwards exploited. We have a few "legal experts" (who just happen to be associated with conservative thinktanks) who give their opinion and that's the only support the article offers.
And how is this not addressing the content of the article??
And in my initial reply when I say:
So you're going to criticize Edwards for use of "science" when the article you quote talks about the latest research in 2003 when the trail was in 1985??
How is this not addressing the content of the article??
I certainly can't talk with the same authority about medical issues as Bali can, but I can tell when an article is completely biased and presenting one side of an issue and only the facts they want you to hear.

So do you have anything to say for yourself besides the usual ad hominem?
 
I really don't care about Edwards being chosen.

He's only going to be the VP. It's the far left policies of Kerry that will decide whom I'm going to vote for.
 
Originally posted by: Isla
It's a false controversy. Pure BS manufactured to manipulate the simple.

Hello... can anyone say "Mel Martinez"?

Very sad, to see such ugliness.

Ironicly enough it is the same simple mind people who get manipulated by lawyers to give out the awards they want.
 
Here's the problem:

Kerry-Edwards & Co.
Trial Lawyers, Inc. run for president.

By Jim Copland

When John Kerry introduced John Edwards as his running mate, he declared, "I have chosen a man who understands and defends the values of America."

The political analysts, or at least those on the left, have swooned. Most news stories have focused on how Edwards "balances the ticket" ? on how, in contrast to the "dull" and "patrician" Kerry, Edwards introduces "pizzazz" to the campaign "with bags of Southern charm, youthful energy and an ease with voters on the stump." Reporters have been playing up the contrast between "Cheney's phlegmatic stump-speaking style" and Edwards's "relentlessly peppy populism," and Democratic strategists have been salivating over the possibility of "Edwards turn[ing] his trial lawyer's cross-examination skills on Vice President Dick Cheney and the Iraq contracts of Halliburton, the firm Cheney once headed."

Edwards's selection, however, exposes the degree to which most Democrats are beholden to a corporate interest far bigger and more nefarious than the staid energy company Cheney left to return to public service: the litigation industry, which we at the Manhattan Institute have dubbed "Trial Lawyers, Inc."

According to publicly available data, Halliburton had revenues of a bit less than $19 billion over the last twelve months, on which it earned a paltry two-percent profit margin. Over the most recent twelve months on record, Trial Lawyers, Inc. in contrast earned over $40 billion, presumably with much higher margins. Indeed, Trial Lawyers, Inc.'s revenues are 50 percent more than those of high-profit companies such as Microsoft or Intel, and twice those of Coca-Cola.

Of course, there is nothing inherently wrong with being a large, profitable corporate interest in America. But Trial Lawyers, Inc., unlike the aforementioned companies, does not earn its money by selling products to willing consumers: It instead abuses its unique access to the government's monopoly on force to redistribute wealth, taking a large chunk for itself in the process.

Predictably, the trial bar has used its largesse to invest heavily in the political process essential to its business, and has therein gained influence over government surpassing any other industry's. The litigation industry has led all others in political contributions for over a decade, and the American Trial Lawyers Association was the largest PAC contributor to the Democratic party in the last full political cycle. Over that same span, every law firm contributing over $1 million was a plaintiffs' firm, and each gave 99 to 100 percent of its contributions to Democrats.

John Edwards, the populist with pizzazz, "presides" over this government-affairs arm of Trial Lawyers, Inc. The degree to which Edwards's political career has been funded by the plaintiffs' bar is truly astounding, and is far more newsworthy than the rantings of wacky conspiracy theorists who believe that we went to war in Iraq to get Halliburton oil contracts.

The tale would be amusing were it not so ominous for our democracy: 19 of Edwards's top 20 donors were plaintiffs' lawyers, 86 percent of his Senate campaign contributions came from personal-injury lawyers, and almost two-thirds of his field-leading presidential-campaign contributions last spring came from trial lawyers, their families, and their staffs. The Edwards campaign has even enjoyed the use of four private jets owned by his trial-lawyer buddies.

The trial lawyers know their compatriot well. Since his election to the Senate, Edwards has voted consistently with their interests ? against class-action reforms, against medical-malpractice reforms, against solutions to the asbestos bankruptcy crisis, even against proposed limitations on personal-injury lawsuits in the event of a terrorist attack.

Reasonable minds might differ over each of these pieces of legislation, but Edwards's steadfast position against any meaningful civil-justice reform is costly, far costlier than the anecdotal wacky cases might imply. The direct costs of America's tort system ? excluding lots of relevant stuff ? is over 2 percent of GDP, far more than in any other industrialized nation. That's the equivalent of a 5 percent tax on wages, or $3,200 annually for the average family of four.

Moreover, the direct costs of the litigation system only scratch the surface of the overall costs to society. Medicine costs more ? much more ? because doctors perform unnecessary tests, for fear of being sued should they fail to detect unlikely, obscure diseases or complications. Potentially life-saving new products are withheld from the market, or never introduced, because of litigation risks. Out-of-control medical-malpractice suits ? of the sort through which John Edwards earned his fortune ? have led to serious reductions in access to high-risk specialists. Ob-gyns are leaving obstetrics entirely, making prenatal care scarce in some areas. The American Medical Association now lists 20 states in full-blown crisis.

Class-action magnet courts, which even plaintiffs' lawyer Dick Scruggs admits are "impossible" places for defendants to get a fair trial, threaten democracy by delegating to elected county-court judges and local juries (who are "in on the deal") regulatory power over national corporations. Ironically, the Class Action Fairness Act ? which is intended to remedy this problem, and which Kerry and Edwards have both consistently opposed ? is being debated in the Senate this week.

The list of harms from our broken civil-justice system goes on and on. "The values of America"? Don't count on it. Those very values ? free enterprise, personal responsibility, and the rule of law ? are undermined by the perversion of civil justice by John Edwards and the rapacious behemoth that is Trial Lawyers, Inc.

? Jim Copland is director of the Center for Legal Policy at the Manhattan Institute and managing editor of the institute's new website, PointOfLaw.com.
 
According to publicly available data, Halliburton had revenues of a bit less than $19 billion over the last twelve months, on which it earned a paltry two-percent profit margin. Over the most recent twelve months on record, Trial Lawyers, Inc. in contrast earned over $40 billion, presumably with much higher margins. Indeed, Trial Lawyers, Inc.'s revenues are 50 percent more than those of high-profit companies such as Microsoft or Intel, and twice those of Coca-Cola.

WTF kind of comparison is that?


LMAO!!!
 
Ah!!!

Jim Copland is director of the Center for Legal Policy at the Manhattan Institute and managing editor of the institute's new website, PointOfLaw.com.

I heard him as a caller/interviewee on a conservative AM Talk Radio program just the other day! He was calling Edwards' term in the Senate a subsidiary of the trial lawyers!!

LMAO!!!

Here's the show it was and a list of her regular guests:
http://www.lauraingraham.com/public/theshow/regulars/
 
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