Why is the U.S. moving toward socialism when the rest of the world is moving as rapidly to the right?

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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The United States' federal government under the One Party leadership of the Democrats is attempting an interesting social experiment. Striving to emulate the ideas of the Old Europe of the Left, our elected representatives are aggressively pursuing social welfare and entitlement programs that have long been characteristic of socialist government across the Atlantic.

But the U.S. is moving in that directions by itself, alone in its dangerous drift toward the Left.

Old Europe, the model, is moving at breakneck speed away from the ideologies and the policies and the politic of the Left. In fact, the Right, almost across the board, is coming to virtually dominate and direct the future of Europe. And the countries of New Europe, those countries that have so recently been forced to live under the burdens and handicaps of communism and socialism have shown absolutely no interest in going back to those bad old days.

America has elected both a Congress and a President that do not understand history, nor do they understand economics and it is becoming more apparent that they do not understand geopolitics.

They do not recognize and they do not accept the lessons of history and in their hubris believe they will rewrite the lessons that were learned at great cost and with great suffering overseas and in our own past.

This is a blind arrogance and arrogance of this magnitude will be repaid in an equal measure of great cost.

I believe there is a slow awakening going on right now, where the advocates of amorphous "hope and change" are being confronted at local, state and national levels. It is not a battle won, but a battle engaged. A battle of ideology and of practicality, a battle of ideas and of power.

The outcome, in the end, is not much in doubt. As in Europe, the lessons will be re-learned. We can only hope that we are going to be quicker on the uptake than the Europeans were - this time around.

Even in Capitalists? Bad Times, Europe?s Socialists Suffer

Even in Capitalists? Bad Times, Europe?s Socialists Suffer

By STEVEN ERLANGER
Published: September 28, 2009
The New York Times

After graduating magna cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa, from Harvard College in 1974 with an A.B. in political philosophy, Steven Erlanger was a teaching fellow at Harvard from 1975 to 1983. Concurrent with this billet, he was an editor and correspondent for the Boston Globe beginning in 1976, where he served on the national and foreign desks, covered the Iran Revolution and Solidarity in Poland and was the European correspondent based in London from 1983-1987.He has written for numerous magazines, including The Spectator, The Economist, The New Republic, the Financial Times, The New Statesman, the Columbia Journalism Review, and The National Interest.

PARIS ? A specter is haunting Europe ? the specter of Socialism?s slow collapse.

Even in the midst of one of the greatest challenges to capitalism in 75 years, involving a breakdown of the financial system due to ?irrational exuberance,? greed and the weakness of regulatory systems, European Socialist parties and their left-wing cousins have not found a compelling response, let alone taken advantage of the right?s failures.

German voters clobbered the Social Democratic Party on Sunday, giving it only 23 percent of the vote, its worst performance since World War II.

Voters also punished left-leaning candidates in the summer?s European Parliament elections and trounced French Socialists in 2007. Where the left holds power, as in Spain and Britain, it is under attack. Where it is out, as in France, Italy and now Germany, it is divided and listless.

Some American conservatives demonize President Obama?s fiscal stimulus and health care overhaul as a dangerous turn toward European-style Socialism ? but it is Europe?s right, not left, that is setting its political agenda.

Europe?s center-right parties have embraced many ideas of the left: generous welfare benefits, nationalized health care, sharp restrictions on carbon emissions, the ceding of some sovereignty to the European Union. But they have won votes by promising to deliver more efficiently than the left, while working to lower taxes, improve financial regulation, and grapple with aging populations.

Europe?s conservatives, says Michel Winock, a historian at the Paris Institut d?Études Politiques, ?have adapted themselves to modernity.? When Nicolas Sarkozy of France and Germany?s Angela Merkel condemn the excesses of the ?Anglo-Saxon model? of capitalism while praising the protective power of the state, they are using Socialist ideas that have become mainstream, he said.

It is not that the left is irrelevant ? it often represents the only viable opposition to established governments, and so benefits, as in the United States, from the normal cycle of electoral politics.

In Portugal, the governing Socialists won re-election on Sunday, but lost an absolute parliamentary majority. In Spain, the Socialists still get credit for opposing both Franco and the Iraq war. In Germany, the broad left, including the Greens, has a structural majority in Parliament, but the Social Democrats, in postelection crisis, must contemplate allying with the hard left, Die Linke, which has roots in the old East German Communist Party.

Part of the problem is the ?wall in the head? between East and West Germans. While the Christian Democrats moved smoothly eastward, the Social Democrats of the West never joined with the Communists. ?The two Germanys, one Socialist, one Communist ? two souls ? never really merged,? said Giovanni Sartori, a professor emeritus at Columbia University. ?It explains why the S.P.D., which was always the major Socialist party in Europe, cannot really coalesce.?

The situation in France is even worse for the left. Asked this summer if the party was dying, Bernard-Henri Lévy, an emblematic Socialist, answered: ?No ? it is already dead. No one, or nearly no one, dares to say it. But everyone, or nearly everyone, knows it.? While he was accused of exaggerating, given that the party is the largest in opposition and remains popular in local government, his words struck home.

The Socialist Party, with a long revolutionary tradition and weakening ties to a diminishing working class, is riven by personal rivalries. The party last won the presidency in 1988, and in 2007, Ségolène Royal lost the presidency to Mr. Sarkozy by 6.1 percent, a large margin.

With a reputation for flakiness, Ms. Royal narrowly lost the party leadership election last year to a more doctrinaire Socialist, Martine Aubry, by 102 votes out of 135,000. The ensuing allegations of fraud further chilled their relations.

While Ms. Royal would like to move the Socialists to the center and explore a more formal coalition with the Greens and the Democratic Movement of François Bayrou, Ms. Aubry fears diluting the party. She is both famous and infamous for achieving the 35-hour workweek in the last Socialist government.

The French Socialist Party ?is trapped in a hopeless contradiction,? said Tony Judt, director of the Remarque Institute at New York University. It espouses a radical platform it cannot deliver; the result leaves space for parties to its left that can take as much as 15 percent of the vote.

The party, at its summer retreat last month at La Rochelle, a coastal resort, still talked of ?comrades? and ?party militants.? Its seminars included ?Internationalism at Globalized Capitalism?s Hour of Crisis.?

But its infighting has drawn ridicule. Mr. Sarkozy told his party this month that he sent ?a big thank-you? to Ms. Royal, ?who is helping me a lot,? and Daniel Cohn-Bendit, a prominent European Green politician, said ?everyone has cheated? in the Socialist Party and accused Ms. Royal of acting like ?an outraged young girl.?

The internecine squabbling in France and elsewhere has done little to position Socialist parties to answer the question of the moment: how to preserve the welfare state amid slower growth and rising deficits. The Socialists have, in this contest, become conservatives, fighting to preserve systems that voters think need to be improved, though not abandoned.

?The Socialists can?t adapt to the loss of their basic electorate, and with globalism, the welfare state can no longer exist in the same way,? Professor Sartori said.

Enrico Letta, 43, is one of the hopes of Italy?s left, currently in disarray in the face of Silvio Berlusconi?s nationalist populism. ?We have to understand that Socialism is an answer of the last century,? Mr. Letta said. ?We need to build a center-left that is pragmatic, that provides an attractive alternative, and not just an opposition.?

Mr. Letta argues that Socialist policies will have to be transmuted into a more fluid form to allow an alliance with center, liberal and green parties that won?t be called ?Socialist.?

Mr. Winock, the historian, said, ?I think the left and Socialism in Europe still have work to do; they have a raison d?être, and they will have to rely more on environment issues.? Combined with continuing efforts to reduce income disparity, he said, ?going green? may give the left more life.

Mr. Judt argues that European Socialists need a new message ? how to reform capitalism, ?recognizing the centrality of economic interest while displacing it from its throne as the only way of talking about politics.?

European Socialists need ?to think a lot harder about what the state can and can?t do in the 21st century,? he said.

Not an easy syllabus. But without that kind of reform, Mr. Judt said, ?I don?t think Socialism in Europe has a future; and given that it is a core constitutive part of the European democratic consensus, that?s bad news.?
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
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?We need to build a center-left that is pragmatic, that provides an attractive alternative, and not just an opposition.?

I can I agree with that. I think that is where the Obama Admin is taking us.

enjoy!
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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European socialism is much more ethnicity/race-based. The US is not moving towards that model. That is a major difference.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
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Aug 23, 2003
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Originally posted by: Bowfinger
We're moving towards the same center. OP fails.
Exactly. The rest of the world was already far more "socialist" (using the Glenn Beck definition) than we are. They already have universal single payer.

Can the OP name a few nations around the world that currently have UHC and are getting rid of it (moving to the "right").
 

RU482

Lifer
Apr 9, 2000
12,689
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I think it HAS to have something to due with how many people Bush pissed off in this country.

and by that I mean that so many people flocked left (vote wise) in retaliation/disgust/whatever that it resulted in the left being drunk with power.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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It's like he didn't even read his own linked article.

The article specifically talks about how the European right has embraced their socialistic policies and has simply promised to make them more efficient. Europe is so leftist and so socialist that even their right wing parties when in power pledge to continue these policies, yet according to our learned friend PJABBER they are moving away from these policies 'at breakneck speed'.

OP reading comprehension fail. Poor guy, maybe a grad degree in English is in order. :)
 

n yusef

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Feb 20, 2005
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The CDU and FDP are hardly right-wing from an American perspective. And while the SPD lost, The Left and the Greens gained support. To infer, "the rest of the world is moving. . .rapidly to the right," from this German election is quite the stretch.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: n yusef
The CDU and FDP are hardly right-wing from an American perspective. And while the SPD lost, The Left and the Greens gained support. To infer, "the rest of the world is moving. . .rapidly to the right," from this German election is quite the stretch.

Are you kidding me? Many of their policies are ultra far-right to even a hate group. Wanting to erect concentration camps in the African desert for refugees is quite out there.
 

ZebuluniteV

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Aug 23, 2007
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Originally posted by: PJABBER
The United States' federal government under the One Party leadership of the Democrats is attempting an interesting social experiment. Striving to emulate the ideas of the Old Europe of the Left, our elected representatives are aggressively pursuing social welfare and entitlement programs that have long been characteristic of socialist government across the Atlantic.

But the U.S. is moving in that directions by itself, alone in its dangerous drift toward the Left.

Old Europe, the model, is moving at breakneck speed away from the ideologies and the policies and the politic of the Left. In fact, the Right, almost across the board, is coming to virtually dominate and direct the future of Europe.


Did you even read the article you posted? Obviously not this section:

Europe?s center-right parties have embraced many ideas of the left: generous welfare benefits, nationalized health care, sharp restrictions on carbon emissions, the ceding of some sovereignty to the European Union. But they have won votes by promising to deliver more efficiently than the left, while working to lower taxes, improve financial regulation, and grapple with aging populations.

What is happening in Western Europe in part is a move away from some of the more extreme measures of the socialist left (i.e. France's 35 hour work week), but probably moreso just a natural swing of the pendulum after inertia has taken its toll (not unlike the eventual decline of the New Deal coalition in the US). But that in no way amounts to a radical reversal of the European left's policies: as in the quoted section above, the right has been successful precisely because it has co-oped a good deal of the left's policies (again, similar to Republican successes after the New Deal, to some extent anyways. Certainly no Republican has been elected campaigning on the promise of abolishing social security, for instance).

As Bowfinger correctly states, Europe and America are moving towards the same center. I think, in the end, that will be very good for both sides of the Atlantic (despite the loud protestations along the way of political extremists on both sides). For instance, clearly the US could benefit from adapting the superior health-care systems used in Western Europe (cheaper per capita while being more effective), just as the Europeans could benefit by expanding the powers of the EU to closer resemble the state-federal division in the US (so that the EU could act more coherently on the international stage, better institute a coordinated response to crises, etc).

Edit: looks like eskimospy beat me to pointing that out.
 

n yusef

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Feb 20, 2005
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Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: n yusef
The CDU and FDP are hardly right-wing from an American perspective. And while the SPD lost, The Left and the Greens gained support. To infer, "the rest of the world is moving. . .rapidly to the right," from this German election is quite the stretch.

Are you kidding me? Many of their policies are ultra far-right to even a hate group. Wanting to erect concentration camps in the African desert for refugees is quite out there.

About which party are you speaking? I admit, I'm not the most sophisticated when it comes to German politics, but I haven't heard about this.
 

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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In German election, party with roots in the communist East could make waves

'Die Linke' ? the Left ? could prove a spoiler.

By Robert Marquand
Staff writer
The Christian Science Monitor
September 25, 2009

Berlin -

Gadflies, novices, charismatics, former East bloc officials, Marxists, and peaceniks ? that's the upstart "Die Linke" party, in the eyes of most Germans.

Ahead of German elections on Sunday, Die Linke ? a party of former East German communists ? tends to elicit chuckles from German voters, and nasty snorts from political elites.

Yet emerging from an uninspiring election campaign that avoided tough issues, where "consensus" was the watchword of all five parties save Die Linke, and where 25 percent of voters are undecided ? the party headed by fiery Oskar Lafontaine could bring a surprise. They are already bringing a recalculation of post-election politics.

Die Linke's election motto is "Wealth for all." Known in English as the Left party, its support has shot up from 4 percent to 14 percent in polls since the 2006 elections, and is surging after a good showing in local elections three weeks ago. They attract workers, are popular in eastern Germany, and worryingly for the establishment represent a "protest vote" among Germans desiring a clearer voice for "social justice."

Die Linke is the only party calling for German withdrawal from Afghanistan ? an issue that could be a sleeper, though it hasn't shown up in polls yet.

The Left sees its fellow left Green party as bourgeois-bohemians ? well-intentioned eco-softies that came to Berlin to do good, and stayed to do well.

"Many people falling through the social system feel that something is not right in our society," says Klaus Lederer, the fervent young head of Die Linke in Berlin, in an interview. "We've heard for years there's no money for social needs. But apparently now there's a lot of money for the banks!"

"We are a transforming party," says the lanky Mr. Lederer, who has two thin earrings in his left lobe and was 15 years old when the Wall fell. He sees Die Linke as a more honest standard-bearer of leftist values than the mainstream Social Democratic Party (SPD), a partner with Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative Christian Democrats in her coalition government.

"With the SPD not standing for social justice any more, we are forcing them to remember a past that included peace and social equality."

Germany's past

However, the Left also represents a past many Germans would like to forget. In recent months Gregor Gysi, the party leader, has been charged with being an informer for the Stasi, or secret police, in the former East Germany. The Left views these charges, 20 years since reunification and during a political campaign, as demagoguery from the right.

But it is an issue that resonates. As Lederer says about the communist past of his party: "Yes, that is a problem. We've moved from a Stalinist party to a democratic socialist party. We've had to be responsible for a history that is still a living memory. But that's a significant evolution ? and we bring that experience of rethinking and evolving to the table."

But opponents and some Germans worry that Die Linke's ideology is not entirely divorced from its darker East German history.

"I'm not sure that party [Die Linke] thinks that East Germany was really so bad," says Karl Georg Wellmann, a CDU representative from west Berlin. "They don't say the Stasi was so bad. They think the Wall had some good sides to it. [Leader Gregor] Gysi worked for the Stasi ... in a high level position. I don't trust them, and a lot of Germans don't trust them."

Is the left ready?

The political class in Berlin, in general, does not consider Die Linke ready for prime time. "They know nothing about governing or about how to run a modern economy," says one senior official of the CDU.

Lederer admits the party is still a work in progress, with many fights among many factions ? older Marxists and what he calls "conspiracy theorists." But a new Die Linke is in the process of forming, he says. This week Dietmar Bartsch, a Left Party senior official, showed some late-campaign flexibility on foreign policy issues, telling the daily Tagesspiegel that "When we say 'out of Afghanistan' we don't mean 'get out of Afghanistan the day after tomorrow.'"

A strong showing by Die Linke on Sunday could hasten a political realignment in Germany, analysts say. If Merkel's CDU does not form a coalition with the liberal Free Democrats Party (FDP), a safe "center-right" coalition ? there is a likely return to the current "grand coalition" of SDP and CDU. But political dynamics on the left are considered likely to pressure the SPD to consider leaving the coalition and to join with the Greens and Die Linke.
 

rchiu

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Jun 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: OrByte
?We need to build a center-left that is pragmatic, that provides an attractive alternative, and not just an opposition.?

I can I agree with that. I think that is where the Obama Admin is taking us.

enjoy!

Heh, I agree more with the first part of his quote: ?We have to understand that Socialism is an answer of the last century,?

Seriously, socialism was popular because the society didn't have the law, the media and the system to protect the weak in the past so the government had to do all the work. But today with the technology advances and the systems in place, most people in an advance economy is able to help themselves to at least reach the middle class if they are willing to put in the work. And there are already plenty of safety net for those who are disabled or lost job temporary.

What we need is center-right policies with efficiency as the priority and with the efficiency/productivity gain and the net revenue that comes with it, provide help to those who need it, while not destroying incentive for people to get out and work.

Those with center-left policies with providing safety net and social services as the priority will only serve to bankrupt this country.

Bottom line, money talk and no matter how good an intention you have, without the productivity and efficieny gain from the right/capitalism, you cannot do anything. I am sure you can find plenty of examples from the past 50 years to support that.
 

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: n yusef
The CDU and FDP are hardly right-wing from an American perspective. And while the SPD lost, The Left and the Greens gained support. To infer, "the rest of the world is moving. . .rapidly to the right," from this German election is quite the stretch.

Are you kidding me? Many of their policies are ultra far-right to even a hate group. Wanting to erect concentration camps in the African desert for refugees is quite out there.

About which party are you speaking? I admit, I'm not the most sophisticated when it comes to German politics, but I haven't heard about this.

Wiki is your friend...

The Free Democratic Party (Freie Demokratische Partei, FDP) is a liberal, pro-business political party in Germany. International counterparts include the Lib Dems in the UK and the Blue Dog Democrats in the US. The party has usually been the third or fourth largest party in Germany, historically having gained between 5.8% and 14.6% of the votes in federal elections. The FDP has held the balance of power for most of the federal republic's existence. It was the junior partner in coalition governments with the Christian Democratic Union from 1949 to 1956, from 1961 to 1966 and from 1982 to 1998, and with the Social Democratic Party from 1969 to 1982.

The party's political guidelines uphold the principles of freedom and individual responsibility under a government "as extensive as necessary, and as limited as possible" (German: so viel Staat wie nötig, so wenig Staat wie möglich). The FDP's policies are marked by skepticism of public intervention and of socialist as well as socially conservative policies.

In economic policy, an integral goal is job creation by giving incentives to people to make investments. This should be achieved by curtailing red tape, privatizations, deregulation, curtailing public subsidies, and a reform of collective bargaining laws. Public debt should also be reduced by those initiatives. In tax policy, the FDP wants to simplify the tax code. Through tax cuts the purchasing power of the people should be raised, which would revive the economy. In social welfare policy, the FDP aims at implementing one type of a citizen's dividend system, in which all tax-funded social security funds would be combined. The FDP supports Social insurances that would be complemented with capital-covered systems. In energy policy, the FDP calls for a diverse combination of the use of nuclear power, coal power, petroleum power, natural gas power and renewable energy.
 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
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Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: n yusef
The CDU and FDP are hardly right-wing from an American perspective. And while the SPD lost, The Left and the Greens gained support. To infer, "the rest of the world is moving. . .rapidly to the right," from this German election is quite the stretch.

Are you kidding me? Many of their policies are ultra far-right to even a hate group. Wanting to erect concentration camps in the African desert for refugees is quite out there.

About which party are you speaking? I admit, I'm not the most sophisticated when it comes to German politics, but I haven't heard about this.

Wiki is your friend...

The Free Democratic Party (Freie Demokratische Partei, FDP) is a liberal, pro-business political party in Germany. International counterparts include the Lib Dems in the UK and the Blue Dog Democrats in the US. The party has usually been the third or fourth largest party in Germany, historically having gained between 5.8% and 14.6% of the votes in federal elections. The FDP has held the balance of power for most of the federal republic's existence. It was the junior partner in coalition governments with the Christian Democratic Union from 1949 to 1956, from 1961 to 1966 and from 1982 to 1998, and with the Social Democratic Party from 1969 to 1982.

The party's political guidelines uphold the principles of freedom and individual responsibility under a government "as extensive as necessary, and as limited as possible" (German: so viel Staat wie nötig, so wenig Staat wie möglich). The FDP's policies are marked by skepticism of public intervention and of socialist as well as socially conservative policies.

In economic policy, an integral goal is job creation by giving incentives to people to make investments. This should be achieved by curtailing red tape, privatizations, deregulation, curtailing public subsidies, and a reform of collective bargaining laws. Public debt should also be reduced by those initiatives. In tax policy, the FDP wants to simplify the tax code. Through tax cuts the purchasing power of the people should be raised, which would revive the economy. In social welfare policy, the FDP aims at implementing one type of a citizen's dividend system, in which all tax-funded social security funds would be combined. The FDP supports Social insurances that would be complemented with capital-covered systems. In energy policy, the FDP calls for a diverse combination of the use of nuclear power, coal power, petroleum power, natural gas power and renewable energy.

I know that the FDP is economically liberal. What I am ignorant of is the bolded xenophobia.

PJABBER, read my sig.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: n yusef
The CDU and FDP are hardly right-wing from an American perspective. And while the SPD lost, The Left and the Greens gained support. To infer, "the rest of the world is moving. . .rapidly to the right," from this German election is quite the stretch.

Are you kidding me? Many of their policies are ultra far-right to even a hate group. Wanting to erect concentration camps in the African desert for refugees is quite out there.

About which party are you speaking? I admit, I'm not the most sophisticated when it comes to German politics, but I haven't heard about this.

Wiki is your friend...

The Free Democratic Party (Freie Demokratische Partei, FDP) is a liberal, pro-business political party in Germany. International counterparts include the Lib Dems in the UK and the Blue Dog Democrats in the US. The party has usually been the third or fourth largest party in Germany, historically having gained between 5.8% and 14.6% of the votes in federal elections. The FDP has held the balance of power for most of the federal republic's existence. It was the junior partner in coalition governments with the Christian Democratic Union from 1949 to 1956, from 1961 to 1966 and from 1982 to 1998, and with the Social Democratic Party from 1969 to 1982.

The party's political guidelines uphold the principles of freedom and individual responsibility under a government "as extensive as necessary, and as limited as possible" (German: so viel Staat wie nötig, so wenig Staat wie möglich). The FDP's policies are marked by skepticism of public intervention and of socialist as well as socially conservative policies.

In economic policy, an integral goal is job creation by giving incentives to people to make investments. This should be achieved by curtailing red tape, privatizations, deregulation, curtailing public subsidies, and a reform of collective bargaining laws. Public debt should also be reduced by those initiatives. In tax policy, the FDP wants to simplify the tax code. Through tax cuts the purchasing power of the people should be raised, which would revive the economy. In social welfare policy, the FDP aims at implementing one type of a citizen's dividend system, in which all tax-funded social security funds would be combined. The FDP supports Social insurances that would be complemented with capital-covered systems. In energy policy, the FDP calls for a diverse combination of the use of nuclear power, coal power, petroleum power, natural gas power and renewable energy.

I know that the FDP is economically liberal. What I am ignorant of is the bolded xenophobia.

PJABBER, read my sig.

I am not aware of anything of the sort and would be interested in an authoritative reference myself.

The following is not a bad comparison of the platforms of the various major players on the German political stage. The positions do tend to change a bit from year to year to allow for more differentiation.

A Short Comparison of the Party Platforms - Germany

Immigration policy is a hot topic in Europe and Germany is no exception. After the integration with the East, Germany also absorbed a significant number of Turks, Bosnians, Iraqis and other Muslim refugees and migrants.

Regarding social issues as e.g. civil rights, immigration, attitude to religion in the public sphere, and opposition to discrimination against homosexuals, the FDP party has always been much more social-liberal (in the American usage of the word), than either the CDU or the SPD.

In foreign policy the FDP supports European integration and transatlantic partnership. The FDP, is perhaps the least nationalistic and the most multilateral in philosophy of the German political parties when it comes to the subject of foreign policy. Although FDP voters, like those of the CDU, strongly favor membership in NATO and rapid European unification, FDP supporters have stressed to a greater extent than the other parties the importance of CSCE institutions and policies aimed at arms control and arms reductions.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Maybe which ever arm is in power when economic crisis hits, people switch to the other arm, as in 'it's the economy stupid'.

Maybe the right in America are morons.

Maybe the right in Europe is the left here.

Maybe Europe is way behind us and they are moving towards Bush.

Maybe the Europeans, with their high standard of living have it so good their self hate is surfacing to destroy them like they feel they deserve whereas we have just had 8 years of cathartic disaster and are sated for a time.
 

Colt45

Lifer
Apr 18, 2001
19,720
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On what fucking planet is "the rest of the world moving rapidly to the right"? :confused:
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Topic Title: Why is the U.S. moving toward socialism when the rest of the world is moving as rapidly to the right?

Because we want people that hate America like you to leave as quickly as possible.

You're the only America hater here Dave. As many have pointed out, your actions in and out of the forum demonstrate this clearly.