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Why is Ronald Reagan such a hero to the right?

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CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
It was? Were you in the KGB keeping it asecret from everyone?
The deficiet spending on the defense industry is what led to the fall of the Soviet Union. They just couldn't compete.
And if you bitch and moan about the deficiet spending then, you have no f'ing right to support Obama now.
I was not in the KGB nor the CIA, I just made basic observations while visiting the Soyuz in the late '70s. If a Soviet citizen saw a queue forming in Moscow, he immediately joined the queue, then asked what the queue was for; no one dared miss a chance to buy something. Tourists were esteemed guests because they had foreign currency. There were special stores that accepted no rubles and had goods not available to any but the Party elite.

Also, please point me to any thread in which I support the current administration's deficit spending, so that I can try to figure out who hijacked my account to make that post.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
You can't treat problems top down. Everything in life happens bottom up. You can pour 100% of the national resources into enforcement, it won't stop the problem (though yeah, it would cut it down for a while). You stop the problem by treating the causes. In this case, the war on drugs was a major contributor to the drug problem not getting any better.

I think there's a balance and I'm sure you would agree. Rudy Giuliani cleaned up NYC by cracking down hard on squeegee men and also sent law enforcement goon squads to bust up gangs and other drug dealers. During this time, sentencing guidelines for drug offenses became increasingly harsh -- adding an effective deterrent for would be first time offenders while severely cracking down on repeaters with long jail terms.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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He certainly had his faults, but he did some great things. The greatest thing he did was restore a sense of confidence and belief in America and it's people. After Carter turned it into a crappy country full of doubt in itself, Reagan came back and brought back the American spirit.

He also was largely responsible for ending the cold war without any violence or bloodshed, and he crushed the air traffic controller union.

That's why many overlook some of the bad stuff, like amnesty, big government spending, weapon sales to Iran etc.

You sound a little like the battered woman who defends an abusive man who 'makes her feel good' by spending her own money to take them on nice trips she can't afford.

He was, literally, a paid spokesman for a long time - but his price tag was very high, the health of the American economy and even to large extent our society and middle class.

He had a very big credit card with which to make the country feel good - the fiscal irresponsibility like no previous administration outside of war had, IIRC.

The liberal presidencies had greatly increased the 'greatness' of our nation - they were far from perfect, but a lot better.

The economy? The issues in no small part came from our oil problems with the middle east during Nixon, leading to ineffectual Republican responses (Whip Inflation Now!, said Ford's buttons for people to wear); while Carter identified the need for a national energy strategy to reduce our dependence on foreign oil (why, that could lead to things like war in the Middle East) - while Reagan reversed the policies to stay on oil, all the time (why, hello, Saddam, our friend against Iran).

Carter identified the need for fiscal policy to change to beat high inflation - he selected Paul Volcker, who is widely credited on this, to head the Fed. But Volcker's efforts paid off under Volcker, and Reagan is viewed by many as the guy who did all this, rather than the historically bad president he was derailing our economic policies (except leaving Volcker in place).

Now, I would say that Carter was not the best 'paid spokesman' like Reagan was for 'nice feelings', slogans like 'Morning in America'. But how much of that is the effectiveness of the right-wing noise machine, pretty new at that time, to rewrite history? The highlight the right cites in criticizing Carter was his 'Malaise speech' - except it didn't have the word 'Malaise' in it, and the speech is widely viewed as 'correct' by many who read it. But it wasn't 'good optimistic leadership' for 'feeling good'.

Take the Lebanon situation. Let's add a bit to the previous comments on it - but you have to start elsewhere. For decades, the US had had a ruthless policy of supporting the worst dictators in Latin America, in the defense of exploitave US companies there, who wanted any movements against an impoverished, cheap workforce - people who would work for just enough to eat - to be stomped out, ironically creating the public support for resistance just as our own founding fathers had resists far less wrongs from England.

As these were gradually getting better, Reagan did a 180 and backed a return of the ruthless politics. The story in Nicaragua, for example, was a long one of terrible wrongs by US-backed dictators leading up to the Sandanista revolution - but Reagan supported the sponsorship of an army of terrorism, to blow things up, kill local people, try to get the Sandanistas out of power. The Congress, to its credit, not only wouldn't go along but criminalized the support of any such right-wing terrorists.

So, did Reagan follow the law and constitution when the Congress - the body who gets to say if we fight war, what we spend money on, what is criminal - did this? No, his administration illegally worked secretly to break the law and support the Contras - which Reagan called, outrageously for this group of largely former Somoza torturers and security forces and criminals - 'the moral equivalent of our founding fathers', a label that was better applied to the Sandanistas he was at war with.

But how to pay for that war? He couldn't write the check out of the government treasury, the act would be caught and a crime. And that's where the nasty stuff comes up - whether rumored 'cuts' of drug smuggling the CIA allowed in exchange for large sums, or the fact Iran wanted to buy missiles that were also illegal to sell - and which could also let Reagan get our Iranian hostages lest he have the political hit of them as Carter had.

Now, the connection starts to Lebanon: to make these sales, not wanting them exposed, Reagan used Israel as the middle-man in the early days. So you have here Israel serving the request of its one good friend in the world, the most powerful nation in the world whose number 1 foreign aid recipient was Israel, the Security Council member who would veto all those resolutions and protect it at the UN, the request to sell missiles to Iran.

But, now, the President of the United States had just put our national security in danger by giving another nation 'blackmail' material, as it had participated in an illegal activity.

And so Reagan 'owed' Israel for their help - and Israel's interest was to invade Lebanon.

Now, this gets to some speculation as to how much Israel's role on the illegal missile sales might have influenced Reagan's willingness to send US Marines into Lebanon with the Israelis to help them. But it's reasonable to suspect it - and regardless, it's clear the inappropriate incentives were there. And this resulted not only in the US participating in a very dubious Israeli act - but Lebanon resisted with the killing of 249 US Marines with a bomb. At this point, Reagan quickly withdrew, again avoiding the 'bad politics' of staying.

I'm not saying leaving was the wrong thing to do - but I'm raising questions abut his having gone in in the first place, and his reasons for leaving as political.

Much of this did get caught, and Reagan offered up what has to be the worst defense in Presidential history - that his heart said his administration did not trade missiles for hostages, but the facts said his administration did. This a good case where that 'paid spokesman' 'feel good' role he had had a high price - a criminal who could talk his way out of much of the criminal behavior, and get the American people in many cases to side with him, unlike, say, a Nixon whose paranoia and clumsy coverup drove most away.

Reagan fundamentally changed the nation's economic structure, with the tax cuts that changed what had been our tax structure for half a century to cut the top rate nearly in half, beginning a massive shift in a 'class war' for the bottom 80% to get nearly none of the economic growth the next few decades while the top 0.01% percent made far more percentage increases than any other group and the concentration of wealth increased to levels not seen since pre-Great Depression; he started the massive increase of debt, used to buy the public 'feeling good' while the debt ran up, effective politically at the cost of our nation's economic well-being. It was he who created the Social Security 50% addon tax, that was used by his and every later administration for hundreds of billions of dollars per year of off-the-books money to spend with "IOU's" to the future generation of Americans his generation squandered for his political ratings, to keep the power used to enrich the rich.

No, Reagan is a dastardly figure, despite seeming in ways to have some good intentions, who history - bought and paid for in large part by these interests - has been nice to.

And the thousands of Latin Americans killed by his ruthless dishonest policies and the millions subjected to the tyranny he helped get back in power are some to ask about it.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
His speeches were positive and inspired the greatness of America and highlighted American exceptionalism.

There is always something so hilarious about the term "American exceptionalism." Its such a laughably stupid phrase and it used to justify or excuse anything.
Was this greatness in America the part where he cut funding to mental hospitals and kicked everyone inside on the street? Or the greatness as he funded terrorists in South America?
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
I think there's a balance and I'm sure you would agree. Rudy Giuliani cleaned up NYC by cracking down hard on squeegee men and also sent law enforcement goon squads to bust up gangs and other drug dealers. During this time, sentencing guidelines for drug offenses became increasingly harsh -- adding an effective deterrent for would be first time offenders while severely cracking down on repeaters with long jail terms.


Except punishment isn't much of a deterrent. Some, but not much. Meanwhile, the expanding incarceration rate for non-violent offenders (ie drug dealers) increase costs to taxpayers enormously. Moreover, since the highest percentage of drug users are poor (since poverty leads to compensatory drug use, and drug use exacerbates poverty), the plan negatively impacted mostly the people who could least afford it...assuring that their kids (now being raised by the state, or single parents, at greater cost to taxpayers again) WILL be drug dealers and users as they grow up. Even worse, they'll be raised with an innate hatred of authority and government, and live in a world with less liberty and freedom in general which reinforces their opinions.

War on drugs = FAIL.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,886
4,436
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Mainly because of ending the cold war and cleaning up Carter's mess. People's lives greatly improved during the Reagan years like no other time before. That and his staunch defense of the freedoms America stands for.

Those improvements to there lives came at the expense of the mess we now have. Who would have thought you can cut taxes and keep spending like its going out of style and nothing bad will come of it.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Mainly because of ending the cold war and cleaning up Carter's mess. People's lives greatly improved during the Reagan years like no other time before. That and his staunch defense of the freedoms America stands for.

Cut the sarcasm, my meter pegged.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
Reagan is the hero of the New Right, because the New Right are Trotskyites (i.e., socialists).

Reagan was no capitalist, and I think he's more harmful to the capitalist cause than someone like Obama is.

He raised the social security tax rather than getting rid of it when the time to do so was perfect.

He supported huge deficits while having greater revenue (that is, he raised taxes more than lowered them--the business tax went up and the lowest bracket's rate went up) than Carter and he met with Japanese leaders to tell them not to send their superior, super-low priced imports over here.

He also increased the complexity of the internal revenue code.

He made no effort to abolish the Dept of Education and Energy or even the House of Urban Development, probably because it was self-proclaimed capitalist Jack Kemp's pet project.

He also gave amnesty to illegal aliens. It pisses me off that he couldn't run them out like Jackson ran the native americans (who should've been made citizens) out, yet he could start shit with people who weren't bothering us.

He resurrected the idea and practice of a large foreign aide budget also.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
< snipped >

I'd like to say to the forum here that I often disagree with Craig on a LOT of stuff. But I don't think many of us can legitimately say he is not thoughtful, nor incapable of vigorously defending his beliefs.

Nice post.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Here are some of the things he did. I'm sure there's more but these are the things I remember. I have a hard time understanding why the man is so revered. Is it just for the collapse of the Soviet Union?

- Cut and run when terrorists bombed the Marine dorms in Lebanon.

- Sponsored terrorism in Central America.

- Gave amnesty to the illegal aliens

- Tripled deficit while cutting taxes

- Clasifying ketchup as a vegetable (ok this one is here for the lols)

-Raised the middle class FICA tax to offset tax cuts on the rich.

-Good PR propaganda giving him credit for the Sun rising each morning.

-And then there is this; rightie Mantra of "Our president can do no wrong, even if he skips 'round the White House wearing his Mama's underwear!"
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
People like feel good bullshit more than they like honesty and real solutions.
 

preCRT

Platinum Member
Apr 12, 2000
2,340
123
106
Really, you have proof he is the one that said fly despite the ice?

Oh come on, he had Alzheimer's and barely did any thinking for himself. It was his aides who wanted the purty pictures of the President talking to the Challenger crew from space during the State of the Union Address. Wouldn't be the same talking to them from Florida.

If not for the State of the Union Address, the crew could have waited to launch with no problem.
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,976
3
71
This is why:
ownedd.jpg


The right likes Reagan because Reagan liked America and understood what it was all about. Apparently, normal Americans also like a president who actually understands what the proper function of government is.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,818
10,107
136
The right likes Reagan because Reagan liked America and understood what it was all about. Apparently, normal Americans also like a president who actually understands what the proper function of government is.

Deficit spending?
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
The right likes Reagan because Reagan liked America and understood what it was all about. Apparently, normal Americans also like a president who actually understands what the proper function of government is.

And to go along with Jaskalas......funding (and selling arms to) terrorists (hello, Iran-Contra affair)
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
This is why:
ownedd.jpg


The right likes Reagan because Reagan liked America and understood what it was all about. Apparently, normal Americans also like a president who actually understands what the proper function of government is.

That is some booolshit. Because Bush was Reagans Right hand man and just 4 years later he got crushed by Clinton.

e1992_ecmap.gif
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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What were the strategic alternatives? Retaliate to make a point...and get what else in return? As I remember, we were already considering withdrawal long before the attack. While tragic, that event just sealed the deal.

It couldn't have been that long - they'd arrived only just over a year before.

FWIW, from Wiki the administration *said* they weren't 'considering withdrawal':

U.S. President Ronald Reagan called the attack a "despicable act"[17]and pledged to keep a military force in Lebanon. Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger, who had privately advised the administration against ever having stationed U.S. Marines in Lebanon,[18] said there would be no change in the U.S.'s Lebanon policy.

Four months later, the Marines were withdrawn.

In any event, Reagan's greatest gift was his ability to inspire...through speeches and clear articulation that we all possess what it takes to achieve greatness and success

The thing is, if this were true, it's a double edged sword. 'Inspiring through speeches' cna be a good or bad thing, depending what it's used for.

We're conditioned to like this when it comes to a speech like Martin Luther King's speech for ending racism, but to forget it when a leader uses it to stir his people to an unjust war.

Reagan's speech - long since bought and paid for whether as the spokesman for GE or the AMA's spokesman against Medicare - was used for the interests of the rich, and such gems as 'The Contras are the moral equivalent of our founding fathers', and to demonize the Democrats so the Republicans could regain power (for their harmful agenda, IMO). You mentioned the loss of 'civility' in American politics after the 80's - I think a case can well be made Reagan was involved in that as welk, see Lee Atwater IIRC.

Indeed, much of George W. Bush's worst was from the Reagan Administration dregs, convicted criminals in some cases being rehabilitated to positions of power to do wrong.

and that govt is the problem not the solution.

And that's one of the worst things Reagan did - IMO, making him an enemy of the American system of government, turning people against democracy.

It's not about the Republican myths and mantras against 'big communist government' - it's much more than that, against Democratic government (the system not the party).

Our founding fathers said, 'here, public, although most of you are poor and without power, you are receiving the power of a vote for society to move from being governed by the few to being governed by the will of the people. The vote gives you power - enormous power as a group - you did not have.' Reagan, on the other hand, says 'do not take pride and vote for government to do things in your interest - rather view the government you elect as your enemy and do not let it do almost anything in your interest'.

Government can by tyrannical - but Reagan tries to get people not to be good citizens, but to prevent good government by painting it as never able to do good for the public.

In so doing, he's disempowering the public from having the government represent it against powerful private interests - in so doing, removing the obstacle of the public from standing up to those interests and letting them get away with all kinds of things, which for example helped lead to the Savings and Loan crisis with these new 'freedoms from the evil government regulating'. The government could also be weakened from any of the measures that had enhanced the middle class's wealth.

Even Democrats respected his ability to communicate effectively with the public, despite some bitter disagreements on policy. Admittedly however, it was also a different time -- I would argue a more civilized tone prevailed in Washington rather than the winner-take-all entitlement mentality that has crept into both parties since the 80s.

See above, but on top of that, how much of Reagan's skill was real, and how much was myth? What, really, did he say of much substance except a few slogans, morning in America, 'tear down that wall' grandstanding? How much was wool over people's eyes to hide the bad acts his government was doing?

Elsewhere, his inspiring strong support for 'American exceptionalism' was praised. That can be a bad thing, the tool of the warmonger and wrongdoer who would whitewash the exploitation of other people. We had no shortage of this in our history in exploiting Native Americans or African slaves, no shortage in other countries where we felt free to overthrow, to take, to oppress (Hawaii's Queen removed, Japan's isolation ended by force sailing into their harbor saying 'open your market or we'll kill you' for which the term 'gunboat diplomacy' was invented, Latin American dictatorships keeping the people poor for US companies to exploit the countries, Middle Eastern dictatorships supported such as the overthrow of Democracy in Iran to install the Shah or the House of Saud, to name a few).

For Reagan, it meant the restoration of tyranny, oppression, torture in Latin America; it meant a shameless return to our own benefit justifying wrong and oppression elsewhere.

It meant the US as empire, with an unstated goal of increasing our power as much as possible globally, including acts such as the invasion of Grenada under the false pretenses of 'protecting American students' whose families begged the government not to invade saying their children were not in danger unless there were an invasion, for the sole apparent reason the the country 'governing while being leftist' to prevent the establishment of a country not part of the US program for exploitation.

We can't have any bad examples that might get others not to go along with the program.

We need less American exceptionalism - the drug that feels nice, but for the countries that take it, comes with a price always for others and usually for them - and more 'good policies' for 'sustainable' economic well being for everyone, harder to get than the exploitation of the many by the few, but the right way to do things.

That doesn't mean the US can't strive to be 'the best' in the world, as with JFK's rhetoric; it means not treating the rest of the world as disposable second-class people.

It means we can spread good American values - not that we can point to the body of the foreigner we killed for no good reason and say how good a thing it is.

The JFK's and FDR's were able to be good leaders without needing the excesses of 'exceptionalism' to turn the US into the thug of the world.

Forgive the analogy, but Hitler 'made the German people feel good', too, as did many bad leaders. This is often how bad leaders get power; the book in FDR's era of how fascism could take hold in the US, 'It could happen here', includes just such a charasmatic leader. There's more needed than that for our government.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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This is why:

The right likes Reagan because Reagan liked America and understood what it was all about. Apparently, normal Americans also like a president who actually understands what the proper function of government is.

So, if a man told you how important respect for women is, while he raped your sister next to you, you would shed a tear and say how he was a true humanitarian for women's rights.

You cannot tell what the man does, in contrast to his propagandistic jingles. What kind of a citizen does that make you, to enable leaders who will lie and do wrong, if they smile?

Do the things he did that contradict your 'proper function of government' and your own values as described in the thread mean a thing to you, or are you so blinded?

The debt, the spending, the waste, the corruption, the unjust use of military force, the support for profitable tyranny, the undermining of our system of separation of powers...

No, all you saw is the pretty words and not the policies. You hear 'morning in America' and get the war fuzzy feeling con men in politics are always able to give the weak.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Not going to bother reading your usual wall-o-text full of left wing socialist revisionist non-sense. Thanks for trying though.

I accept your resignation from any discussion and admission you have no leg to stand on.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I don't think that but the same could be said of the right wingers that worship Reagan yet scream about amnesty now.

Different time. Nothing is a universal bromide for all times. Then we had low UE, social services were not strained, etc so it seemed like the right thing to do. Today is a different USA - going broke and fast with high UE.