Why is it that people who trust in God get nothing?

[skull]

I tried to make a deal with the devil but it didn't work because he doesn't exist.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: skull
I tried to make a deal with god but it didn't work because he doesn't exist.

Fixed

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

God hasn't done shit for anyone. At least the devil seems less inclined to molest little kids.

Devil 1 - God 0

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: skull
I tried to make a deal with god but it didn't work because he doesn't exist.

Fixed

Thank you for making my point.

Typically when a religious person posts anything serious about their views the responses are all FSM, sky fairy and "you're a fucking idiot" etc.

There are Christians who make Christianity look bad and then there are atheists who make atheism look bad. You could have come in here like destrekor, AstroManLuca, or even Farang, posting something of substance that can be taken as an invitation into dialogue, an attempt to both teach and learn with someone who is unlike you. Instead you took the high road and went straight for the meaningless and antagonistic insults.

GagHalfrunt, because of your amazing logic, persuasive arguments and your gracious behavior I have seen the error of my ways. I want to disregard my religious beliefs and be just like you. You clearly are happier in your life and more tolerant of others than I ever have been. :heart:

 

[amdhunter]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: skull
I tried to make a deal with god but it didn't work because he doesn't exist.

Fixed

:laugh:

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: destrekor

Well, as an atheist who has always looked at the roots of religion logically, that wasn't quite the message that is established. The goal of religion isn't to treat death as a reward, but rather as a release and gateway, and the reward comes next if you had done well in life.

However, I've always hated how religion paints life. It's like they admit, that while this god fella is great and all, he is a complete prick who made life terrible just because he wanted to, as punishment for an entire race due to one mistake, all of which is his fault to begin with. It has been made into one big game - live successfully through hell on Earth, and get your sweet reward of heaven in the afterlife.

Really, it just boils down to putting a juicy steak on a pole constantly dangling in front of you, never to be reached. Afterlife is that reward, that peace of mind, constantly telling you everything will be all right. We shouldn't need an afterlife as a reward. Our goal in life shouldn't be to live a good life in some god's eyes so that we can get our reward, but rather to do excellent things in this life, so our children can have a better life. A reward that cannot be matched - knowing that your kids are on the path to success because of the opportunities you presented, and because collectively the current generation has helped pass a better world.

If I can provide my perspective on the bolded part... 🙂

I view God as having created a perfect earth, no sickness, death or wars, and populated it with beings that knew him face to face, literally able to go for walks with him and talk over the day. If that was all that was ever created though, that total perfection, we'd be nothing more than soulless paper dolls, just being danced around by an all powerful being for his amusement. Very dystopian. To avoid that, he added a random "option B". Now we're no longer dystopian because it's up to us how we live our lives, option A or option B. Makes him less of a prick for giving us no choice and more of a parent hoping we'd make the right one.

You can even argue that humanity is better off having taken option B; we suddenly are masters of our own domain, have an innate hunger for knowledge and understanding about ourselves and the world around us, have an amazing impulse toward and love for the creative. You don't see any of that illustrated in the Genesis story. Who's to say that the whole garden of Eden perfection idea was really, from our current view, a good thing? Lets say an alien race came down and offered us the cure to all our diseases and overpopulation and food supply issues etc. We wind up in a perfect society and what happens? Do we reach to new and unknown heights, pushing our species forward? I'd venture we just get fat and lazy and stupid, with no motivation to do any technological development of our own. Dependents forever.

Also, if the outcome to option B was the same as the outcome to option A (you get stuck with perfection no matter what) it would be a dumb and rather cruel charade. Hypothetically, assuming heaven is real and leaving out hell as an option for the moment, as an atheist would you really want to spend eternity in heaven? You don't go in much for the whole sit-around-and-worship-God thing here on earth; what would make anybody think they'd like it any better eternally in the afterlife? That's one of the reasons I kind of chuckle when people say they hope they'll go to heaven when the don't pursue that type of life on earth. It strikes me that they might not enjoy their afterlife if they did wind up there. 🙂

Hopefully nothing in my post is offensive or inflammatory. It's not meant to be. 🙂

The way I look at it, we are a jack of all trades - capable of everything, masters at nothing. Except for one trick: knowledge. Most creatures have a tool that gets them through life. An offensive or defensive capability, basically a weapon. Claws, beaks, vicious jaws, etc. We have none of that, but we have an innate ability - problem solving. That is, to boil it down, what we do best. We aren't intelligent, as I'd define it, but that's just another problem. Everything humans have ever accomplished, boils down to a problem, and a solution. First was weapons, tools. Then rudimentary education to pass a generation's solutions to problems to the next. That in of itself was a solution that is constantly re-worked - how to best pass on knowledge.

I can't quite say for sure what perfection would do. I look at life as, there is no point. Hell, there is no point for life to even exist, it does nothing for the universe, it doesn't satisfy a need for balance or anything. But it's here, we're here, and as a species the goal is to stick around.
We'll need to reach as close to perfection as possible, at some point. We need to do what we can to ensure humans will survive. We are the only species on Earth that can prevent its own possible extinction, why aren't we investing time into pursuing that? Sure, we are to some extent, but I think it should be priority number one. Instead, the priority is to maintain the status quo, and continue to fight each other. We're tribal, and utterly retarded as a species for not figuring this out. We're wasting time killing each other, when instead we should be working together, globally as one race, to figure out how to perfect ourselves. We need to do what we can to reach such a goal, because we need to get off this rock and spread ourselves out. Sticking to one home rock means we are very vulnerable to being wiped out.

And as for heaven? I hope it doesn't exist, because I don't want to deal with another life. Life is supposed to be once. You are born, you do your duties, and you die. There are many like you. There were many before you, and will be many after you, so long as you do what you can to ensure your species continues to survive.
I want this one life. That is all we should ever have in mind too. We have this life to do what we can, make mistakes, learn from them, and move on. We don't get a second chance at this. My motivation? Make a name for myself. That is the afterlife - to be remembered forever after your death. That's immortality, and we should all strive for that.

I've always looked at religion as having been necessary. Wrong and full of lies, but necessary. 😉 It's the messages, the calming of the human mind, trying to make the world a better place, because humans are so ridiculously retarded we can't figure things out on our own. We just need the right approach, the right goals.

Basically, my dream for humanity is to ditch religion, but to subscribe to my way of thinking. My philosophies will get us to a better future. It's for our children! 🙂

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I could answer in my own words but I think that my answer might be clearer by bypassing me and posting the reason I experience the world as I do, which seems to most people a very upside-down way of living life.

James 1
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

James 1
9The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. 10But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business. 12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

Philippians 1
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far

Matthew 6
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

I think it's creepy to live life in a way that embraces suffering and unhappiness and to treat death like a huge reward at the end of it all. Isn't it kind of selfish to live your whole life just waiting to die so you can get your "reward"?

Answering the secondary edited question too. 🙂

I don't view my life as suffering and unhappiness. Honestly, I live in a pretty nice house, have a pretty good wine collection, enjoy my friends and family, and it's sunny today so I'm overall living the good life. 🙂 I'm not living in a holding pattern waiting to die.

You can look at this from a completely non-religious standpoint and reach a lot of the same conclusions that I've drawn, simply because society encourages certain behaviors as being good for society. Going out and getting drunk and hooking up is all well and good in college but society regards it as slightly scandalous because that disapproval plays a role in encouraging people to grow up, get monogamous and be responsible about raising their kids. Self-perpetuating. There's nothing sad about society encouraging a particular self-denying behavior, is there?

Christians just have a different motivation; our view is that character is worthwhile on its' own merits. It's a bit hard to understand from an outsider's view but there is pleasure in setting a lifestyle goal for yourself and reaching it, completely aside from the whole dying thing.

[edit] zerocool timewarped me but made my point about the societal stuff exactly. 🙂

There is something sad about it because I really don't think that society should be passing on sexual guidelines beyond the basic ones like don't use your penis as a weapon etc

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: destrekor

Well, as an atheist who has always looked at the roots of religion logically, that wasn't quite the message that is established. The goal of religion isn't to treat death as a reward, but rather as a release and gateway, and the reward comes next if you had done well in life.

However, I've always hated how religion paints life. It's like they admit, that while this god fella is great and all, he is a complete prick who made life terrible just because he wanted to, as punishment for an entire race due to one mistake, all of which is his fault to begin with. It has been made into one big game - live successfully through hell on Earth, and get your sweet reward of heaven in the afterlife.

Really, it just boils down to putting a juicy steak on a pole constantly dangling in front of you, never to be reached. Afterlife is that reward, that peace of mind, constantly telling you everything will be all right. We shouldn't need an afterlife as a reward. Our goal in life shouldn't be to live a good life in some god's eyes so that we can get our reward, but rather to do excellent things in this life, so our children can have a better life. A reward that cannot be matched - knowing that your kids are on the path to success because of the opportunities you presented, and because collectively the current generation has helped pass a better world.

If I can provide my perspective on the bolded part... 🙂

I view God as having created a perfect earth, no sickness, death or wars, and populated it with beings that knew him face to face, literally able to go for walks with him and talk over the day. If that was all that was ever created though, that total perfection, we'd be nothing more than soulless paper dolls, just being danced around by an all powerful being for his amusement. Very dystopian. To avoid that, he added a random "option B". Now we're no longer dystopian because it's up to us how we live our lives, option A or option B. Makes him less of a prick for giving us no choice and more of a parent hoping we'd make the right one.

You can even argue that humanity is better off having taken option B; we suddenly are masters of our own domain, have an innate hunger for knowledge and understanding about ourselves and the world around us, have an amazing impulse toward and love for the creative. You don't see any of that illustrated in the Genesis story. Who's to say that the whole garden of Eden perfection idea was really, from our current view, a good thing? Lets say an alien race came down and offered us the cure to all our diseases and overpopulation and food supply issues etc. We wind up in a perfect society and what happens? Do we reach to new and unknown heights, pushing our species forward? I'd venture we just get fat and lazy and stupid, with no motivation to do any technological development of our own. Dependents forever.

Also, if the outcome to option B was the same as the outcome to option A (you get stuck with perfection no matter what) it would be a dumb and rather cruel charade. Hypothetically, assuming heaven is real and leaving out hell as an option for the moment, as an atheist would you really want to spend eternity in heaven? You don't go in much for the whole sit-around-and-worship-God thing here on earth; what would make anybody think they'd like it any better eternally in the afterlife? That's one of the reasons I kind of chuckle when people say they hope they'll go to heaven when the don't pursue that type of life on earth. It strikes me that they might not enjoy their afterlife if they did wind up there. 🙂

Hopefully nothing in my post is offensive or inflammatory. It's not meant to be. 🙂

The way I look at it, we are a jack of all trades - capable of everything, masters at nothing. Except for one trick: knowledge. Most creatures have a tool that gets them through life. An offensive or defensive capability, basically a weapon. Claws, beaks, vicious jaws, etc. We have none of that, but we have an innate ability - problem solving. That is, to boil it down, what we do best. We aren't intelligent, as I'd define it, but that's just another problem. Everything humans have ever accomplished, boils down to a problem, and a solution. First was weapons, tools. Then rudimentary education to pass a generation's solutions to problems to the next. That in of itself was a solution that is constantly re-worked - how to best pass on knowledge.

I can't quite say for sure what perfection would do. I look at life as, there is no point. Hell, there is no point for life to even exist, it does nothing for the universe, it doesn't satisfy a need for balance or anything. But it's here, we're here, and as a species the goal is to stick around.
We'll need to reach as close to perfection as possible, at some point. We need to do what we can to ensure humans will survive. We are the only species on Earth that can prevent its own possible extinction, why aren't we investing time into pursuing that? Sure, we are to some extent, but I think it should be priority number one. Instead, the priority is to maintain the status quo, and continue to fight each other. We're tribal, and utterly retarded as a species for not figuring this out. We're wasting time killing each other, when instead we should be working together, globally as one race, to figure out how to perfect ourselves. We need to do what we can to reach such a goal, because we need to get off this rock and spread ourselves out. Sticking to one home rock means we are very vulnerable to being wiped out.

And as for heaven? I hope it doesn't exist, because I don't want to deal with another life. Life is supposed to be once. You are born, you do your duties, and you die. There are many like you. There were many before you, and will be many after you, so long as you do what you can to ensure your species continues to survive.
I want this one life. That is all we should ever have in mind too. We have this life to do what we can, make mistakes, learn from them, and move on. We don't get a second chance at this. My motivation? Make a name for myself. That is the afterlife - to be remembered forever after your death. That's immortality, and we should all strive for that.

I've always looked at religion as having been necessary. Wrong and full of lies, but necessary. 😉 It's the messages, the calming of the human mind, trying to make the world a better place, because humans are so ridiculously retarded we can't figure things out on our own. We just need the right approach, the right goals.

Basically, my dream for humanity is to ditch religion, but to subscribe to my way of thinking. My philosophies will get us to a better future. It's for our children! 🙂

I think that's fairly close to what my viewpoint would be if I were not religious (though you're a little more generous in caring about humanity than I am; not planning to have kids and am relatively disinterested in the survival of our species beyond my own lifespan 🙂)

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I could answer in my own words but I think that my answer might be clearer by bypassing me and posting the reason I experience the world as I do, which seems to most people a very upside-down way of living life.

James 1
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

James 1
9The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. 10But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business. 12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

Philippians 1
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far

Matthew 6
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

I think it's creepy to live life in a way that embraces suffering and unhappiness and to treat death like a huge reward at the end of it all. Isn't it kind of selfish to live your whole life just waiting to die so you can get your "reward"?

Answering the secondary edited question too. 🙂

I don't view my life as suffering and unhappiness. Honestly, I live in a pretty nice house, have a pretty good wine collection, enjoy my friends and family, and it's sunny today so I'm overall living the good life. 🙂 I'm not living in a holding pattern waiting to die.

You can look at this from a completely non-religious standpoint and reach a lot of the same conclusions that I've drawn, simply because society encourages certain behaviors as being good for society. Going out and getting drunk and hooking up is all well and good in college but society regards it as slightly scandalous because that disapproval plays a role in encouraging people to grow up, get monogamous and be responsible about raising their kids. Self-perpetuating. There's nothing sad about society encouraging a particular self-denying behavior, is there?

Christians just have a different motivation; our view is that character is worthwhile on its' own merits. It's a bit hard to understand from an outsider's view but there is pleasure in setting a lifestyle goal for yourself and reaching it, completely aside from the whole dying thing.

[edit] zerocool timewarped me but made my point about the societal stuff exactly. 🙂

There is something sad about it because I really don't think that society should be passing on sexual guidelines beyond the basic ones like don't use your penis as a weapon etc

There will always, with or without religion, be sexual guidelines. Multitudinous and conflicting sets, in fact. 🙂 I'm with you as far as not legislating or punishing behavior outside of a standard as long as no harm is being done, but I think it's necessary to recognize that sex has always been a ritualized element of society and, humans being humans, is likely to always remain so. I really don't think there's anything wrong with those rituals, beliefs and understandings being passed on and shared; societal evolution tends to very slowly weed out the most emotionally damaging of beliefs.

 

[Fritzo]

Over-indulgence always = bad news?

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707


GagHalfrunt, because of your amazing logic, persuasive arguments and your gracious behavior I have seen the error of my ways. I want to disregard my religious beliefs and be just like you. You clearly are happier in your life and more tolerant of others than I ever have been. :heart:

If you could see the error of your ways you wouldn't be spouting that biblical fairy tale nonsense in the first place. I'd be happy to offer up persuasive arguments and substantive facts, but you're incapable of understanding them. That's the whole point. The FACTS are there for all to see. The complete lack of evidence to support the invisible man in the sky is overwhelming. You believe anyway. To persuade there must be a brain on the other end capable of being reached. I was intelligent enough to understand the futility of even trying. And I did it all without some 2000 year old fables choosing my words for me. You ought to try it someday.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: AreaCode707


GagHalfrunt, because of your amazing logic, persuasive arguments and your gracious behavior I have seen the error of my ways. I want to disregard my religious beliefs and be just like you. You clearly are happier in your life and more tolerant of others than I ever have been. :heart:

If you could see the error of your ways you wouldn't be spouting that biblical fairy tale nonsense in the first place. I'd be happy to offer up persuasive arguments and substantive facts, but you're incapable of understanding them. That's the whole point. The FACTS are there for all to see. The complete lack of evidence to support the invisible man in the sky is overwhelming. You believe anyway. To persuade there must be a brain on the other end capable of being reached. I was intelligent enough to understand the futility of even trying. And I did it all without some 2000 year old fables choosing my words for me. You ought to try it someday.

Your sarcasm meter is broken. But that's just one more benefit of being the kind, soft-spoken person that you are, isn't it? Who wouldn't want to be just like you? You model such an exemplary life and all your knowledge and understanding seems to be bringing you such joy.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: AreaCode707


GagHalfrunt, because of your amazing logic, persuasive arguments and your gracious behavior I have seen the error of my ways. I want to disregard my religious beliefs and be just like you. You clearly are happier in your life and more tolerant of others than I ever have been. :heart:

If you could see the error of your ways you wouldn't be spouting that biblical fairy tale nonsense in the first place. I'd be happy to offer up persuasive arguments and substantive facts, but you're incapable of understanding them. That's the whole point. The FACTS are there for all to see. The complete lack of evidence to support the invisible man in the sky is overwhelming. You believe anyway. To persuade there must be a brain on the other end capable of being reached. I was intelligent enough to understand the futility of even trying. And I did it all without some 2000 year old fables choosing my words for me. You ought to try it someday.

Your sarcasm meter is broken. But that's just one more benefit of being the kind, soft-spoken person that you are, isn't it? Who wouldn't want to be just like you? You model such an exemplary life and all your knowledge and understanding seems to be bringing you such joy.

It is bringing me joy, you're the one that seems to be upset about it. I get tremendous enjoyment out of laughing at people like you. So come on, spout some more fairy tales for me and I'll be positively giddy. You really believe that people with the brains to scorn people that believe in unicorns and leprechauns are unhappy? No zippy, you've got it backwards. You're the born corrupt pieces of garbage that are not fit to bask in a mythical beings presence. You're the ones that are desperately trying to get saved because you're so flawed. The rest of us feel pretty good about ourselves.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: AreaCode707


GagHalfrunt, because of your amazing logic, persuasive arguments and your gracious behavior I have seen the error of my ways. I want to disregard my religious beliefs and be just like you. You clearly are happier in your life and more tolerant of others than I ever have been. :heart:

If you could see the error of your ways you wouldn't be spouting that biblical fairy tale nonsense in the first place. I'd be happy to offer up persuasive arguments and substantive facts, but you're incapable of understanding them. That's the whole point. The FACTS are there for all to see. The complete lack of evidence to support the invisible man in the sky is overwhelming. You believe anyway. To persuade there must be a brain on the other end capable of being reached. I was intelligent enough to understand the futility of even trying. And I did it all without some 2000 year old fables choosing my words for me. You ought to try it someday.

Your sarcasm meter is broken. But that's just one more benefit of being the kind, soft-spoken person that you are, isn't it? Who wouldn't want to be just like you? You model such an exemplary life and all your knowledge and understanding seems to be bringing you such joy.

It is bringing me joy, you're the one that seems to be upset about it. I get tremendous enjoyment out of laughing at people like you. So come on, spout some more fairy tales for me and I'll be positively giddy. You really believe that people with the brains to scorn people that believe in unicorns and leprechauns are unhappy? No zippy, you've got it backwards. You're the born corrupt pieces of garbage that are not fit to bask in a mythical beings presence. You're the ones that are desperately trying to get saved because you're so flawed. The rest of us feel pretty good about ourselves.

Call me crazy (no wait, you already did), but deriving joy from ridiculing others is one of those areas where I've come to value character over living my life fully, per the topic of the OP and my original response.

What I really want to know is why the personal beliefs of others irritate you so much that you go out of your way, not only to comment, but to repeatedly belittle. Do you have a persistent set of Jehovah's Witnesses at your door on Saturday mornings? Were you in a religious school as a kid that repressed you? Or is there no personal history or reason, just the satisfaction of looking down on others?

For as much research you've done and as much knowledge as you have, wrongness of religion aside, you neglect to address the fact that people understand the world through the view of the culture in which they were raised. If you hope to change somebody's perspective you have to work with terms they know, drawing them through the web of social structure and comprehension that they have in place. You're clearly not making an effort to do that. And if you do understand that basic concept of relating to others who are unlike you, then you're ignoring it, which makes you deliberately antagonistic.

So either...
you think I *could* learn what you know and you're being an asshole by insulting instead of engaging politely and intelligently in an attempt to teach me
or
you think I *can't* learn what you know and you're being an asshole by taunting a 'tard who can't help being a 'tard

Makes you look like a fabulous human being, really.

Oh, and I'm not upset. You can keep trying to bait me if you want. I may be ignorant or stupid or however you want to put it, but you've got some pretty big blinders on when it comes to your own methods of relating and discourse. Observing that is interesting.

 

[FelixDeCat]

AreaCode707, careful not to run out of food. 😉

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
AreaCode707, careful not to run out of food. 😉

Shhhhh! He thinks I'm upset and it's more fun that way! 😉

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Posting in this thread while baking oatmeal cookies.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: destrekor
I've always hated how religion paints life. It's like they admit, that while this god fella is great and all, he is a complete prick who made life terrible just because he wanted to, as punishment for an entire race due to one mistake, all of which is his fault to begin with. It has been made into one big game - live successfully through hell on Earth, and get your sweet reward of heaven in the afterlife.

I've had some interesting abstract discussions along these lines on this forum, but I think I may address you as more of a realist. In this view, life doesn't suck because God made it so, it sucks because we make it so. Jesus's message was love, and just that makes life a lot better than otherwise. You can say that people figured out some things about love before Jesus, but you can't reasonably say that Jesus didn't bring a particularly clear and emphatic message of love, here and now, and despite hardship and opposition, which can be realized.

So, is religion then just in opposition to the elements of life that make it enjoyable, or is it giving a message of higher values which can make life better?

As to the afterlife vs. life and the value of living life for itself instead of some great future reward, what if: Afterlife is also life, which has structure such that the higher values are even more important in that context?

 

[DangerAardvark]

This is a good thread. Next, let's debate the mating rituals of the Bigfoots. Then we can discuss the migration patterns of mermaids.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse...

 

[zinfamous]

well, i assumed this was a Rolomather thread, was disappointed at OP name. Then I see that timewarp has managed to preserve the assumptions of even the most jaded ATer.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: zinfamous
well, i assumed this was a Rolomather thread, was disappointed at OP name. Then I see that timewarp has managed to preserve the assumptions of even the most jaded ATer.

Proof that God does exist? 😉

Originally posted by: destrekor
I've always hated how religion paints life. It's like they admit, that while this god fella is great and all, he is a complete prick who made life terrible just because he wanted to, as punishment for an entire race due to one mistake, all of which is his fault to begin with. It has been made into one big game - live successfully through hell on Earth, and get your sweet reward of heaven in the afterlife.

It strikes me as little more than a way of comforting people who have lousy lives. (Religion often seems to be quite a big thing with the downtrodden.) Rather than say, "Well you've got one shot at life, and yours kind of sucks....huh, too bad," instead you can sugar-coat it: "Ok, so your life sucks now. But don't worry, once you finally die, things will be better!" Kind of like giving morphine to a cancer patient while telling them it's a cure. It might make the person feel better, but it won't address the true problem.
And of course to explain why <deity> allows suffering in the world, there's always the argument that it's all humanity's fault.

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I view God as having created a perfect earth, no sickness, death or wars, and populated it with beings that knew him face to face, literally able to go for walks with him and talk over the day. If that was all that was ever created though, that total perfection, we'd be nothing more than soulless paper dolls, just being danced around by an all powerful being for his amusement. Very dystopian. To avoid that, he added a random "option B". Now we're no longer dystopian because it's up to us how we live our lives, option A or option B. Makes him less of a prick for giving us no choice and more of a parent hoping we'd make the right one.

So...did God create a perfect Earth or not?
1) It's perfect, total perfection.
2) We'd just be soulless paper dolls.
3) So it's not perfect?

4) Hoping we'd make the right choice...and offer endless suffering for choosing incorrectly. Tough love, eh?

Also, if the outcome to option B was the same as the outcome to option A (you get stuck with perfection no matter what) it would be a dumb and rather cruel charade. Hypothetically, assuming heaven is real and leaving out hell as an option for the moment, as an atheist would you really want to spend eternity in heaven? You don't go in much for the whole sit-around-and-worship-God thing here on earth; what would make anybody think they'd like it any better eternally in the afterlife? That's one of the reasons I kind of chuckle when people say they hope they'll go to heaven when the don't pursue that type of life on earth. It strikes me that they might not enjoy their afterlife if they did wind up there. 🙂

Well if I'm in Heaven staring at God, I'd pretty much accept that he exists. Then I'd kindly demand an explanation for his rather unacceptable and sociopathic tendencies as illustrated in his holy book.
Plus, really, sit in Heaven worshipping God all the time? 1) That sounds kind of dull and silly. 2) That kind of sounds like that "soulless paper doll" scenario presented earlier.

As for eternity, I think that after living through 10^10^30^220 years, I might start to get a little bit bored. 😉

 

[QueBert]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
This is a good thread. Next, let's debate the mating rituals of the Bigfoots. Then we can discuss the migration patterns of mermaids.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse...

The majority of people in the world do no believe in either thing you mentioned, yet the majority of people in the world do believe in God. This thread makes sense in that aspect. Where a thread about Bigfoot doesn't. I see what you're trying to do here, maybe you know something the majority of the world doesn't? with your infinite wisdom and all...

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: zinfamous
well, i assumed this was a Rolomather thread, was disappointed at OP name. Then I see that timewarp has managed to preserve the assumptions of even the most jaded ATer.

Proof that God does exist? 😉

Originally posted by: destrekor
I've always hated how religion paints life. It's like they admit, that while this god fella is great and all, he is a complete prick who made life terrible just because he wanted to, as punishment for an entire race due to one mistake, all of which is his fault to begin with. It has been made into one big game - live successfully through hell on Earth, and get your sweet reward of heaven in the afterlife.

It strikes me as little more than a way of comforting people who have lousy lives. (Religion often seems to be quite a big thing with the downtrodden.) Rather than say, "Well you've got one shot at life, and yours kind of sucks....huh, too bad," instead you can sugar-coat it: "Ok, so your life sucks now. But don't worry, once you finally die, things will be better!" Kind of like giving morphine to a cancer patient while telling them it's a cure. It might make the person feel better, but it won't address the true problem.
And of course to explain why <deity> allows suffering in the world, there's always the argument that it's all humanity's fault.

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I view God as having created a perfect earth, no sickness, death or wars, and populated it with beings that knew him face to face, literally able to go for walks with him and talk over the day. If that was all that was ever created though, that total perfection, we'd be nothing more than soulless paper dolls, just being danced around by an all powerful being for his amusement. Very dystopian. To avoid that, he added a random "option B". Now we're no longer dystopian because it's up to us how we live our lives, option A or option B. Makes him less of a prick for giving us no choice and more of a parent hoping we'd make the right one.

So...did God create a perfect Earth or not?
1) It's perfect, total perfection.
2) We'd just be soulless paper dolls.
3) So it's not perfect?

4) Hoping we'd make the right choice...and offer endless suffering for choosing incorrectly. Tough love, eh?

Yeah, I was playing with a few different scenarios in my post and they don't all jive consistently together. The Genesis-as-dystopia doesn't fit within an existing theological model, for example, so it isn't consistent with some of the other content. 🙂 Consistent answer from my perspective without the hypotheticals: If you define perfect as something permanent that excludes the possibility of change with imperfection then no, God didn't create a perfect earth. If you're willing to accept the definition of perfection as a state, possibly impermanent, that includes a means to change and become imperfect, then God could have indeed created a perfect earth and it underwent change.

Please no takeoff arguments on creation/evolution; the theoretical theological nature of this thread is fun as-is. 🙂

Also, if the outcome to option B was the same as the outcome to option A (you get stuck with perfection no matter what) it would be a dumb and rather cruel charade. Hypothetically, assuming heaven is real and leaving out hell as an option for the moment, as an atheist would you really want to spend eternity in heaven? You don't go in much for the whole sit-around-and-worship-God thing here on earth; what would make anybody think they'd like it any better eternally in the afterlife? That's one of the reasons I kind of chuckle when people say they hope they'll go to heaven when the don't pursue that type of life on earth. It strikes me that they might not enjoy their afterlife if they did wind up there. 🙂

Well if I'm in Heaven staring at God, I'd pretty much accept that he exists. Then I'd kindly demand an explanation for his rather unacceptable and sociopathic tendencies as illustrated in his holy book.
Plus, really, sit in Heaven worshipping God all the time? 1) That sounds kind of dull and silly. 2) That kind of sounds like that "soulless paper doll" scenario presented earlier.

As for eternity, I think that after living through 10^10^30^220 years, I might start to get a little bit bored. 😉

Exactly my point! 🙂

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: QueBert

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
This is a good thread. Next, let's debate the mating rituals of the Bigfoots. Then we can discuss the migration patterns of mermaids.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse...

The majority of people in the world do no believe in either thing you mentioned, yet the majority of people in the world do believe in God. This thread makes sense in that aspect. Where a thread about Bigfoot doesn't. I see what you're trying to do here, maybe you know something the majority of the world doesn't? with your infinite wisdom and all...

But believing in a diety is so fucking laughable.

 

[rudeguy]

Why is it that people with spiritual questions seek answers from a group of mostly atheist and agnostic people? If you really want your question answered, talk to someone with actual knowledge of these things.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: QueBert

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
This is a good thread. Next, let's debate the mating rituals of the Bigfoots. Then we can discuss the migration patterns of mermaids.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse...

The majority of people in the world do no believe in either thing you mentioned, yet the majority of people in the world do believe in God. This thread makes sense in that aspect. Where a thread about Bigfoot doesn't. I see what you're trying to do here, maybe you know something the majority of the world doesn't? with your infinite wisdom and all...

This entire topic is a giant case of begging the question. We not only assume that God and the Devil exist, but we assume they have certain properties, that it is both possible and common to make a deal either or both of them, then we ask people to simply assert a justification for this situation. It's a circle-jerk.

The point of my post was to illustrate how absurd it is that we don't hold questions regarding the nature of the universe (e.g. whether there is a God) to the same standard of evidence as we hold questions regarding the nature of a stick of gum.

And regarding the bolded part, the majority of people in the world don't believe in "God". The majority of people in the world believe in a million different ones. You can hardly find two people of the same branch, of the same sect, of the same religion who would agree 100% about the nature of God... which brings us back to begging the question... which God, which Devil?