Why is it that people who trust in God get nothing?

[amdhunter]

Well?

 

[RoloMather]

You got it reversed.

 

[FelixDeCat]

What makes you ask this question? Personal experience? More details please.

 

[amdhunter]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
What makes you ask this question? Personal experience? More details please.

Just wondering. I've heard all my life that I could have money and women by dealing with the devil.

The devil kinda looked like Liz Hurley if I remember it right.

 

[QueBert]

there's more to life than money and women. I have religious friends who have next to nothing finically, and BUST their ass working 2 jobs making chump change. And due to their faith they are far happy than even a majority of the people on ATOT who make 100k a year. When you meet a woman like my neighbor who's up at 5 every morning and on buses to and from 2 different jobs. Where she makes slightly over minimum wage on both. And she doesn't get home most nights until 8 or 9. Yet every time I see her she's smiling and telling me how "blesses" she is. She having nothing in many peoples eyes, she has more than most of us ever well. I honestly wish I would be able to be that content while struggling.

On the flip side I know people who are rich and stressed to hell and constantly 1 day away from having a huge heart attack, in a perfect world nobody would have to struggle. But the world isn't perfect, and when you meet somebody who's barely keeping their head above water, but is filled with joy due to their religion, that's a sign trust in God isn't always a bad thing.

 

[tasmanian]

God will give you all those things *except drugs, sex, ect* when you die, forever. While the devil only gives you that while you are alive. \

 

[child of wonder]

Originally posted by: tasmanian
God will give you all those things *except drugs, sex, ect* when you die, forever. While the devil only gives you that while you are alive. \

No sex in heaven?

 

[tasmanian]

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: tasmanian
God will give you all those things *except drugs, sex, ect* when you die, forever. While the devil only gives you that while you are alive. \

No sex in heaven?

Im pretty sure he would frown on 1 night stands. Enjoy having sex with the same woman forever.

 

[zerocool84]

The Devil hasn't done sh!t for me.

 

[child of wonder]

Originally posted by: tasmanian

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: tasmanian
God will give you all those things *except drugs, sex, ect* when you die, forever. While the devil only gives you that while you are alive. \

No sex in heaven?

Im pretty sure he would frown on 1 night stands. Enjoy having sex with the same woman forever.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AreaCode707]

I could answer in my own words but I think that my answer might be clearer by bypassing me and posting the reason I experience the world as I do, which seems to most people a very upside-down way of living life.

James 1
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

James 1
9The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. 10But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business. 12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

Philippians 1
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far

Matthew 6
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

:moon:I believe in God and have a wonderful wife, a good job, a little pug dog, and all the computer stuff a computer fanatic would ever need. Not claiming holier than thou stuff just works for me.

Q9400 3.84ghz
coolermaster atcs 840
domino alc cpu cooler
evga gtx280 oc'ed
antec quattro 850w
4gb gskill ram running 1:1 960
ga-ep45-ud3p

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: QueBert
there's more to life than money and women. I have religious friends who have next to nothing finically, and BUST their ass working 2 jobs making chump change. And due to their faith they are far happy than even a majority of the people on ATOT who make 100k a year. When you meet a woman like my neighbor who's up at 5 every morning and on buses to and from 2 different jobs. Where she makes slightly over minimum wage on both. And she doesn't get home most nights until 8 or 9. Yet every time I see her she's smiling and telling me how "blesses" she is. She having nothing in many peoples eyes, she has more than most of us ever well. I honestly wish I would be able to be that content while struggling.

On the flip side I know people who are rich and stressed to hell and constantly 1 day away from having a huge heart attack, in a perfect world nobody would have to struggle. But the world isn't perfect, and when you meet somebody who's barely keeping their head above water, but is filled with joy due to their religion, that's a sign trust in God isn't always a bad thing.

I'm happy for people who can live their lives like that, but I don't think I could. Sounds like fake happiness or something to me. Obviously for some people it's real, but for me that sounds like living my life on valium 100% of the time.

Rather than banking on an afterlife to give me "eternal happiness," I'd rather do everything I can to be happy in this life. This is the only one we know exists and I don't want to waste my time being miserable just for the promise of Heaven, which is nowhere near a sure thing.

Doesn't mean I'm going to just go around fucking everything that moves and living an intentionally hedonistic life, but as far as I care to believe, the only true happiness that exists is what you find in your life in earth. So I'll do what I can to enjoy things while I'm here. At the same time, I do what I can to help others as well - both because it fulfills me and makes me feel good, but because it helps them live their ideal life too. We're all people and we should help each other whenever we can.

I like the idea of following virtuous ideals and living a kind and caring life without tying yourself to church dogma.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I could answer in my own words but I think that my answer might be clearer by bypassing me and posting the reason I experience the world as I do, which seems to most people a very upside-down way of living life.

James 1
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

James 1
9The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. 10But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business. 12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

Philippians 1
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far

Matthew 6
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

I think it's creepy to live life in a way that embraces suffering and unhappiness and to treat death like a huge reward at the end of it all. Isn't it kind of selfish to live your whole life just waiting to die so you can get your "reward"?

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: zerocool84
The Devil hasn't done sh!t for me.

God hasn't done shit for anyone. At least the devil seems less inclined to molest little kids.

Devil 1 - God 0

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I could answer in my own words but I think that my answer might be clearer by bypassing me and posting the reason I experience the world as I do, which seems to most people a very upside-down way of living life.

A. James 1
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

B. James 1
9The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. 10But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business. 12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

C. Philippians 1
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far

D. Matthew 6
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

E. Matthew 6
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

F. 28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Bible verses mean absolutely nothing to me.

k, I'll mark up what I get from each of them then.

A. When you have crap in your life and you work through it you develop character.

B. Many of the pleasures in life, while nice and nothing particularly wrong with them, are temporary and transient. Character > transient pleasures.

C. Life is about doing God's work on earth (as modeled by Jesus; eating and drinking with sinners, making wine , helping the poor and disadvantaged, and bringing hope and truth to people when you can) and that's all good stuff, but there's more yet to come after life and it's pretty damn good stuff too, more so than life.

D. Reiterating the "pleasures of life are temporary" thing.

E. Pursuing pleasures of life is as likely to produce stress and worry as pleasure (see QueBert's post for illustration)

F. Investing your time and effort into something beyond the pleasures of life is worthwhile, because it's lasting.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I could answer in my own words but I think that my answer might be clearer by bypassing me and posting the reason I experience the world as I do, which seems to most people a very upside-down way of living life.

James 1
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

James 1
9The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. 10But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business. 12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

Philippians 1
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far

Matthew 6
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

I think it's creepy to live life in a way that embraces suffering and unhappiness and to treat death like a huge reward at the end of it all. Isn't it kind of selfish to live your whole life just waiting to die so you can get your "reward"?

Answering the secondary edited question too.

I don't view my life as suffering and unhappiness. Honestly, I live in a pretty nice house, have a pretty good wine collection, enjoy my friends and family, and it's sunny today so I'm overall living the good life. I'm not living in a holding pattern waiting to die.

You can look at this from a completely non-religious standpoint and reach a lot of the same conclusions that I've drawn, simply because society encourages certain behaviors as being good for society. Going out and getting drunk and hooking up is all well and good in college but society regards it as slightly scandalous because that disapproval plays a role in encouraging people to grow up, get monogamous and be responsible about raising their kids. Self-perpetuating. There's nothing sad about society encouraging a particular self-denying behavior, is there?

Christians just have a different motivation; our view is that character is worthwhile on its' own merits. It's a bit hard to understand from an outsider's view but there is pleasure in setting a lifestyle goal for yourself and reaching it, completely aside from the whole dying thing.

[edit] zerocool timewarped me but made my point about the societal stuff exactly.

 

[zerocool84]

This has nothing to do with religion. People who are driven and determined will get a good job and have their lives set. Lazy people will not unless they get lucky.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I could answer in my own words but I think that my answer might be clearer by bypassing me and posting the reason I experience the world as I do, which seems to most people a very upside-down way of living life.

A. James 1
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

B. James 1
9The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. 10But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business. 12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

C. Philippians 1
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far

D. Matthew 6
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

E. Matthew 6
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

F. 28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Bible verses mean absolutely nothing to me.

k, I'll mark up what I get from each of them then.

A. When you have crap in your life and you work through it you develop character.

B. Many of the pleasures in life, while nice and nothing particularly wrong with them, are temporary and transient. Character > transient pleasures.

C. Life is about doing God's work on earth (as modeled by Jesus; eating and drinking with sinners, making wine , helping the poor and disadvantaged, and bringing hope and truth to people when you can) and that's all good stuff, but there's more yet to come after life and it's pretty damn good stuff too, more so than life.

D. Reiterating the "pleasures of life are temporary" thing.

E. Pursuing pleasures of life is as likely to produce stress and worry as pleasure (see QueBert's post for illustration)

F. Investing your time and effort into something beyond the pleasures of life is worthwhile, because it's lasting.

I substantially edited my post but I'll respond to these by saying I understand what they're saying, but I don't think you need to live a Christian life for them to have meaning. Basically, when you say "something beyond the pleasures of life," I'm thinking of actions you can take that have lasting meaning without necessarily being religiously motivated. So doing volunteer work, raising a family and making sure your children are prepared to live a good life themselves, etc. are also worthy goals in life.

Thanks for putting these in non-religious context! It definitely makes more sense that way. But yeah, I can see how such Bible lessons can make certain people happy, but I prefer living a life where I choose my own path rather than following a cookie-cutter system imposed by one religion or another. And while I'm not religious, I still believe in certain universal values... you know, simple things like "you ought to help people when you can" or "don't hurt people unless it's absolutely necessary." I believe these are universal human values that don't require any religion to support them, because we see pretty much the same set of basic values in nearly every religion. Religions were created by people, so therefore people have an inherent morality about them.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Ah, cool. Okay so there were some dueling replies here but it looks like you basically addressed everything I mentioned in my other reply as well.

P.S. OMG good-natured discourse leading to a mutual understanding in a religion thread? NO WAI!

 

[SSSnail]

http://media.photobucket.com/i...ead8/JesusFacepalm.jpg

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Ah, cool. Okay so there were some dueling replies here but it looks like you basically addressed everything I mentioned in my other reply as well.

It is a really different perspective, and I get the fact that it's really pretty incomprehensible to non-Christians and that's perfectly fine. All the explanation in the world isn't going to make it make sense unless we start from the same baseline on certain things.

This is actually why I tend to be very non-legislative about morality in my political views (with the exception of abortion.) There's absolutely no reason to encourage non-Christians to behave like Christians behave. Our morality and our views really DON'T make sense in a secular world and we shouldn't muddy the waters by promoting behavioral morality without understanding. It irritates me all to get out when people call the US a Christian nation, or bemoan changes that are making us "less of a Christian nation". We shouldn't BE a Christian nation; Christianity has to do with individuals, not countries.

P.S. OMG good-natured discourse leading to a mutual understanding in a religion thread? NO WAI!

OMG I NOE! All credit to you; typically when a religious person posts anything serious about their views the responses are all FSM, sky fairy and "you're a fucking idiot" etc. Thanks for engaging in a dialogue and being respectful about it.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I could answer in my own words but I think that my answer might be clearer by bypassing me and posting the reason I experience the world as I do, which seems to most people a very upside-down way of living life.

James 1
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

James 1
9The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. 10But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business. 12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

Philippians 1
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far

Matthew 6
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

I think it's creepy to live life in a way that embraces suffering and unhappiness and to treat death like a huge reward at the end of it all. Isn't it kind of selfish to live your whole life just waiting to die so you can get your "reward"?

Well, as an atheist who has always looked at the roots of religion logically, that wasn't quite the message that is established. The goal of religion isn't to treat death as a reward, but rather as a release and gateway, and the reward comes next if you had done well in life.

However, I've always hated how religion paints life. It's like they admit, that while this god fella is great and all, he is a complete prick who made life terrible just because he wanted to, as punishment for an entire race due to one mistake, all of which is his fault to begin with. It has been made into one big game - live successfully through hell on Earth, and get your sweet reward of heaven in the afterlife.

Really, it just boils down to putting a juicy steak on a pole constantly dangling in front of you, never to be reached. Afterlife is that reward, that peace of mind, constantly telling you everything will be all right. We shouldn't need an afterlife as a reward. Our goal in life shouldn't be to live a good life in some god's eyes so that we can get our reward, but rather to do excellent things in this life, so our children can have a better life. A reward that cannot be matched - knowing that your kids are on the path to success because of the opportunities you presented, and because collectively the current generation has helped pass a better world.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Well, as an atheist who has always looked at the roots of religion logically, that wasn't quite the message that is established. The goal of religion isn't to treat death as a reward, but rather as a release and gateway, and the reward comes next if you had done well in life.

However, I've always hated how religion paints life. It's like they admit, that while this god fella is great and all, he is a complete prick who made life terrible just because he wanted to, as punishment for an entire race due to one mistake, all of which is his fault to begin with. It has been made into one big game - live successfully through hell on Earth, and get your sweet reward of heaven in the afterlife.

Really, it just boils down to putting a juicy steak on a pole constantly dangling in front of you, never to be reached. Afterlife is that reward, that peace of mind, constantly telling you everything will be all right. We shouldn't need an afterlife as a reward. Our goal in life shouldn't be to live a good life in some god's eyes so that we can get our reward, but rather to do excellent things in this life, so our children can have a better life. A reward that cannot be matched - knowing that your kids are on the path to success because of the opportunities you presented, and because collectively the current generation has helped pass a better world.

If I can provide my perspective on the bolded part...

I view God as having created a perfect earth, no sickness, death or wars, and populated it with beings that knew him face to face, literally able to go for walks with him and talk over the day. If that was all that was ever created though, that total perfection, we'd be nothing more than soulless paper dolls, just being danced around by an all powerful being for his amusement. Very dystopian. To avoid that, he added a random "option B". Now we're no longer dystopian because it's up to us how we live our lives, option A or option B. Makes him less of a prick for giving us no choice and more of a parent hoping we'd make the right one.

You can even argue that humanity is better off having taken option B; we suddenly are masters of our own domain, have an innate hunger for knowledge and understanding about ourselves and the world around us, have an amazing impulse toward and love for the creative. You don't see any of that illustrated in the Genesis story. Who's to say that the whole garden of Eden perfection idea was really, from our current view, a good thing? Lets say an alien race came down and offered us the cure to all our diseases and overpopulation and food supply issues etc. We wind up in a perfect society and what happens? Do we reach to new and unknown heights, pushing our species forward? I'd venture we just get fat and lazy and stupid, with no motivation to do any technological development of our own. Dependents forever.

Also, if the outcome to option B was the same as the outcome to option A (you get stuck with perfection no matter what) it would be a dumb and rather cruel charade. Hypothetically, assuming heaven is real and leaving out hell as an option for the moment, as an atheist would you really want to spend eternity in heaven? You don't go in much for the whole sit-around-and-worship-God thing here on earth; what would make anybody think they'd like it any better eternally in the afterlife? That's one of the reasons I kind of chuckle when people say they hope they'll go to heaven when the don't pursue that type of life on earth. It strikes me that they might not enjoy their afterlife if they did wind up there.

Hopefully nothing in my post is offensive or inflammatory. It's not meant to be.

 

[Farang]

What I wonder is how many Christians actually believe the stories in the Bible, down to Jesus being resurrected and water into wine and all that. I was raised Catholic and taught to believe that but once we all got older we sort of dropped it, and what was most important was the value system. I see living your life as a Christian but I can't get past some of the somewhat far-fetched stories you have to believe to actually be a Christian.