• We should now be fully online following an overnight outage. Apologies for any inconvenience, we do not expect there to be any further issues.

Why is it so hard to make a voting machine ?

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
We see it every year. Voting machines that have flaws, vote the wrong way, don't work like they are supposed to work, no proof of how someone voted. What is the problem here ? Are the engineers doing these that incompetent ? It can't be that hard to design a voting machine, it isn't that complex.

I would start with tossing out touch screens. A lot of the problems are coming from machines that have to be calibrated so the persons finger is selecting the right option. Replace it with the good old mechanical button. Put a 1 line lcd display next to each button and let the person press the button for the vote. Print out the results on a card using a bar code pattern. That gives them the paper receipt. They can scan the cards to get the totals.


Really is it that hard ?
 

Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
0
Eh, our machines are pretty fool proof. Push inside the box and the light will come on indicating who you voted for. After making/correcting all selections, press the big green button on the bottom. Makes a noise, lights go out, done.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
16
81
The fact that the same companies who make secure ATM machines can't apparently make secure voting machines suggest that these voting machines are defective by design.

/tinfoil
 

blinblue

Senior member
Jul 7, 2006
889
0
76
I have often wondered this. If there is one thing computers are good at, its counting. And all voting is is counting. It really can't be hard to make a completely fool proof and hack proof design.

Our ballots are the fill in the bubble and then put the sheet into a machine. It would be nice if it gave a receipt though.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,345
126
The fact that the same companies who make secure ATM machines can't apparently make secure voting machines suggest that these voting machines are defective by design.

/tinfoil

I was going to say that it's probably the same backscratching government contract fleecing that we as taxpayers see with roads that take forfuckingever to be built and only to be under construction again the next year. It's just companies milking the taxpayers.

Seems like the only things that work well from a government contract standpoint are things that blow shit up.
 

mizzou

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2008
9,734
54
91
Computers dont make mistakes, people do


Vast majority of problems i beleive are user error, the programming that goes into a voting machine cant be overly complicated
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,345
126
Oh, and I almost though this was a bit of a parody of my other thread. But I do have to say that it really is kinda hard to accomodate the widely varying levels of intelligence that manages to drag itself into a polling booth.
 
Last edited:

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,758
603
126
Obviously the machines need to be finicky so there is plausible deniability when they are used to cheat.
 

Ryland

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2001
2,810
13
81
If I remember correctly Australia did this via open source software whereas all of our voting machines are closed source and they pull out the lawsuit hammer if anybody gets their hands on the code. I wonder how lucrative selling an election is for the companies...
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,886
4,436
136
It is not hard to make one, and it is not hard to make one do what the special interests groups want either :)
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
44
91
It's not hard. They did it over 100 years ago with the lever machines. For all practical purposes, the lever voting machines were perfect. But they're not flashy and electronic so they had to go. Never mind the fact that they were massively reliable and nearly impossible to "hack", they didn't look modern so we had to scrap 'em.

ZV
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,286
145
106
It's not hard. They did it over 100 years ago with the lever machines. For all practical purposes, the lever voting machines were perfect. But they're not flashy and electronic so they had to go. Never mind the fact that they were massively reliable and nearly impossible to "hack", they didn't look modern so we had to scrap 'em.

ZV
Electronic machines SHOULD be even more reliable, cheaper, and portable... In fact, these are some of the simplest electronic circuits and programming one could do, arguably the casing is harder to get down then the actual electronics.

The fact that the companies that make these devices for the US government fail so badly says a lot about how good the government is at contract work.

Seriously, adding 1 to a number is like one of the first things electronics were made to do (followed closely by taking the sqrt and projectile math :D).

The fact that these systems can be "hacked" speaks miles about how retarded the engineers must have been when they assembled these systems.
 

MiataNC

Platinum Member
Dec 5, 2007
2,215
1
81
The fact that the same companies who make secure ATM machines can't apparently make secure voting machines suggest that these voting machines are defective by design.

/tinfoil

It's not the machines or the design that are the problem. It is human error. The whole process is a monumental task, and it is amazing it runs as smoothly as it does. Electronic voting did NOT create problems. It fixed some and added some. What it has resulted in in more focus on the process; making problems much more obvious and damning.

Most counties employ a handful of full-time employees.

Time tables are ridiculously tight. Every county is racing against the clock to proof and finalize all election materials (printed, mailed, and electronic). There never is enough time. Machines (mechanical or electronic) have to be prepped, tested, and shipped to polling sites. A small county in California has to prep more than 2000+ machines. This all happens within days or a short couple of weeks once everything is finalized.

Hundreds of volunteers need to be recruited, trained, and trusted to run equipment they are unfamiliar with. Equipment they will use and manage only on election day and only a couple of times every year (assuming the continue to volunteer).

Demographically the vast majority of these volunteers are retired, students, and out of work citizens. To put it plainly, these are not the most competent people to have running any form of voting equipment. They do not learn or adapt quickly. They all have individual personalities, and there is never enough highly trained staff to help/monitor these people in the field.

Election laws change several times a year. This means that no two elections are ever the same. So not only do you have to train new material, you have to untrain old material and old habits.. Again the demographics of your poll workers make this a monumental task. Most screw-ups on election day are the result of procedural errors or simple ignorance.

With regards to the machines...

Each election in each county is unique. All ballot information must be created in a publishing software package unique to a given county. In addition most counties have to create and proof ballots in multiple languages.

In many places (like California) a ballot rotation scheme is used based on congressional district. This is done to ensure the candidates are not in the same spot on every ballot. In my county this results in more than 500 unique ballot layouts that must be proofed and tested in the short time between finalizing the election material and election day.

Once the polls open it is up to the trained volunteers to run, monitor, and secure all voting equipment and materials. It only takes a couple of machine failures/glitches and/or good faith mistakes by poll workers to completely fubar a precinct.

There are so many points of failure it really doesn't take much to create headlines.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
100,378
17,935
126
For the city we have been using a cardboard ballot where you use marker to complete an arrow to indicate the candidate you are voting for. You then take the ballot (in a sleeve to obscure your choices) to the scanner, it gets scanned, the ballot drops into the box. You got electronic counting and paper ballot in case of dispute.

This has been used for 12 years at least.

we also have touchscreen systems and systems for the visually impaired. Personally I think the cardboard + scanner system is the most desirable, you get the efficiency of electronic voting and the hard copy to vette against.
 
Last edited:

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
16
81
Oh, and this is relevant:

GR2006031600213.gif
 
Nov 7, 2000
16,403
3
81
people are dumb. and just when you think you have made it idiotproof, some idiot proves you wrong. level pull, touchscreen, verbal Q&A, whatever it is, people will find a way to F it up
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Most people are idiots and don't know how to use technology while the others simply make up machine issues for attention.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,353
1,862
126
It's very difficult to rig the machines in a way so that
a.) nobody can tell they are rigged
b.) people who rigged them don't tattle

Thus, there are issues with voting machines.